Avoiding the superman syndrome by stat rank capping

[Pakarro]

From combining the Magic and Armor thread with my own thoughts on the topic, I would like to propose simple rules for avoiding the superman (-woman, -kra) syndrome. In the present state, one can be (in a rl terminology) world boxing champion, chess grandmaster, and Nobel laureate in Physics medicine and chemistry. This is not consistent with an ic character development.

A simple way would be to counteract this by just capping the sum of all stat ranks by (just to give a number) 60% of the maximum value (would be 1440, instead of 2400). That way you have to consider carefully, which way you are going.

A useful addition would be to be able to undo an increase in rank, when you find you have gone a wrong way or for further development of currently already maxed out characters (pls, don't bash me for that  ).

This cap would only involve restrictions at very high stats. One could also think of a more complicated scheme, where a certain profile has to be maintained during the whole character development. For example, the third highest stat rank has to be a certain percentage lower than the highest, the fifth again lower by the same step. By making this step height low or zero at very low ranks, and increasing for higher ranks, a careful character development can be enforced (e.g a linear increase from zero to 10% maximum for the highest ranks). Notice the packages of two, or else no exchange of priorities would be possible....

All this is subject to the effect of stats in the game mechanics, which I have not a real feeling for, being a rather inexperienced player. So, please consider these ideas in the light of my experience. 

[thalaric]

Someone with max Strength might also have max Endurance, but it feels wrong that they would also have max Intelligence. I think that's the basis of the problem. What if training one past a certain point makes it either harder or impossible to train the other? So you get a sort of "training resistance" for opposing abilities. The same idea could be extended to skills also, with different magics hindering combat training in different ways or being good at Heavy Armour makes it hard to master Hide in Shadows, etc. etc.

[weltall]

harder could be acceptable. impossible is illogical and unrealistic.

[Tzarhunt]

I think calculating the cost to raise a stat not only on the current stat value but also on the current sum of one's stats value could do the trick.

[thalaric]

The problem with harder over impossible is that given enough time, you can still end up with 100% in everything, which is also unrealistic.

[bilbous]

Blue men made out of silicon are a bit unrealistic, at least from Earthly experience. What is your point, again?

Is it that PS needs The Blue Man group to hold a performance?

/cue Nelson

// I know, I know. I'm not very funny all the time but I do nail it once in a while.

[Aramara Meibi]

reality itself is unrealistic, and here we play in a fantasy realm.

[thalaric]

If you don't like the semantics of "unrealistic" how about "contradictory"? If you want a bunch of supers running around then there's no problem, though they are usually balanced by the fact that other supers can kill with eye beams and mind bullets.

I think that Tzarhunt's idea has merit. Though, depending on the implementation you may get stuck if you raise the wrong abilities too far and can't afford to raise any of them.

EDIT: Also, just to clarify, when I said "impossible" to train opposing abilities, I meant impossible past a certain percentage of max.

[Aramara Meibi]

in all fairness, I agree with the problem, but not entirely the solution. The supermen being described here relates to the Mary Sue phenomenon, which we all roll our eyes at and try our hardest to avoid, yet manifested via stats rather than narrative. But, this being a 'game', there are those who will find all of the shortcuts, exploits, and formulas to make their character the 'best' because it gives them the sense that they are 'winning'. Therefore, you end up with players abusing the system in ways unintended by the developers, because developers are purehearted and honest, and believe the rest of the world is too.

What the developers expect from us players is to create a character who has BOTH STRENGTHS AND WEAKNESSES, fears and desires, hopes and dreams, yada yada, and who will eventually fill a role in this fantasy realm society. At the same time, they don't wish to have programmatic classes and such, and want to give us players the autonomy and freedom to develop our characters the way we choose, and trust us to limit ourselves so that we don't develop into a society of ubermensch.

Another thing to keep in mind is, this is a game in development, and us current players are actually lab rats and testers. Some players out there actually enjoy exploring every single facet of the game, and push themselves to test the limits. Gods help them.

Anyways, you'll find that those players who are after the superman as their goal are basically rendered ineffectual when it comes to the core of this game and of this player community, and that is RP. I've been playing for a year now come one week, so I may be a newb in some eyes, but I've remained constantly active for the most part and in my experience, within roleplay, stats are basically ignored in favor of character reputation and the Rules of Storytelling.

Those that grind constantly (for that's what it takes to be superman) are, well, grinding constantly, and the most interaction you'll ever have with them is see them run past towards the dlayo pit fully armed in plate and dual wielding reinforced battle axes. Those that return night after night to suffer and rejoice in their character's losses and triumphs, to run the whole gamut of emotion and be left in catharsis, they may or may not care if your INT is 300.

[Gilrond]

I don't like artificial constraints in situation where realism is lacking in many other areas already.

[thalaric]

If you want to play the semantics game, Planeshift is one big artificial constraint. Its rules are tools meant to be used as a base for you to RP around. I get where you guys are coming from, I do. It's not where I come from, being more of a designer/programmer, but when you talk about Mary Sue (the over-skilled or over-idealized character) it reminds me of Min/Maxing potential or in this case Max/Maxing which is even worse. Whatever you want to call it, if your tools are faulty, it will actually impede your ability to RP. You can't RP your way around a person winning a duel by having an extremely {contradictory|unlikely|illogical|unrealistic|unintuitive} combination of skills and attributes.

So consider what boundaries might be useful to RPers and give some feedback to the developers. You guys have been around longest, you should be using that experience to come up with fixes, not knock every proposal down.

[Aramara Meibi]

I've had enough experience with tabletop rpg's to know about the min/max exploits, and I think you're touching on the same point, no matter what sort of rule system you come up with, there will always be ways to exploit it. Even with a system of caps, eventually, a certain combination of stats will be discovered which will be undefeatable by any other possible combination, and that will be exploited and continuously cloned by those who want to be 'the best'.

So far, the best we can hope for is self governance, which is putting a lot of faith in humanity, I know. I don't mean to be a negative ninny, I'm actually a big proponent for positivism when it comes to problem solving, but the problem you are addressing here is not the system, but a certain player type, and what are we to do, ban those players?

[thalaric]

Your argument is that if it isn't perfect it isn't better. Or as Voltaire said, "the perfect is the enemy of the good". Sorry but I disagree. Canonizing optimal builds and min/maxing exploits would be like Shakespearian literature compared to the current exploit of being able to maximize every stat and skill in the game. You can mitigate the effect such players have on the game, or your can do nothing.

[Phantomboy86]

I'm prolly known by this point for my absolute hatred of the maxed all system. I won't try and argue settings or whether or not its realistic to be the best at everything, since that gets nobody anywhere, but I will say this.

Do you want one or two 'unrealistic' restraints that improve the game in its entirety, RP included. Or do you want no restraint at all, and to have to continue dealing with the black hole that is the Mary Sue Maxed All.

And while I know plenty who though they've got uber stats purposefully restrain it in RP (and thus are 80x more fun to be around, if at the very least bearable) , I also know an equal or larger force that don't.

[bilbous]

I agree Aramara, no matter where you set the limits people will eventually get there. The only way to prevent that is to set levels exponentially such that the highest levels are not possible to achieve and insignificantly better than previous levels.

All games either max out or get so that the challenge disappears after a while.

I'm not sure what effect such players have on your game when you can just /ignore them. Do they make you jealous?

My stats are maxed how does that hurt you? My skills will never be.