Avoiding the superman syndrome by stat rank capping

[thalaric]

It doesn't hurt us, it hurts you, Mary Sue.

[bilbous]

Alas Poor Yorick, it doesn't hurt me a bit.

[Tessra]

I see the logic, and to some extent agree with it, but in principle, I would never like to see this implemented. 

I'd like to throw two things out there, from my perspective.  Pakarro, if you know anything about martial arts, then you would know about judo.  It's the second most widely played sport in the world, and is an extremely difficult competitive sport to master.  Many of the recent Olympians and national champions actually DO have master or doctorate degrees in the computer, physical and biological sciences.  It IS possible to have both intelligence and physical prowess.  It's just not universal.  And if you look at the broad range of players in the game.. it's not universal there to see characters who do both magics and melee. 

If you're going to cap stats on the basis of magic and melee, you might as well say crafters can't max either, because they'd be spending all their time perfecting their craft, and not training anything else.  Sure, it might be more "realistic" but it will also make the game a lot less fun for people. 

Secondly, I'm one of those players trying to gain high stats if not maxed in everything.  I defy anyone to say I don't RP though.  It's a hard balance to try and find time for the grinding I actually enjoy doing, with the people I enjoy talking to and interacting with.  Some days, I want nothing more than to sit in the middle of BD1 and whack ulbers for an hour or two while chattering OOCly in guild and alliance and gossip.  Some days, I want to run rampant through the city sowing discord and others, I want nice, simple RPs.  As an active player in an RP game, I think it should be my decision how I chose to spend those hours, provided I'm not hurting anyone else's experience.  And it's not hurting someone else by me sitting in a wilderness training, anymore than it hurts mine by someone sitting at a furnace. 

If you insist upon imposing restrictions like this, you will run players off to other games, where they can grind to their heart's content, without people whining about it.  And it won't just be the PLers who leave, it will be the people who choose to explore every side of the game, but find some of them summarily closed to them. 

Imposing restrictions like this hinders character development over time.  It means whatever path you start on, you have to finish.  Lets say your character trains up as a soldier, maxes the physical sides, shutting down the intellectual and magical areas.  Then they go into some RP war, and end up emotionally scarred so that they can never lift a blade again.  Welp, they're screwed from a stat standpoint, because even if they would want to have that change of heart and go the way of the cleric or priest or healer, they can never actually have any decent stats to back them up.  And we all know how people love to complain about characters that are RPd beyond their stats. 

I just don't see this being a good idea, even if the motive behind the thought is a good one.  I think there are other, better ways to try and accomplish the main goal of this game.

[thalaric]

Alas Poor Yorick, it doesn't hurt me a bit.

It does, you went through all the trouble of maxing every stat even though ostensibly you're not using them all in character. Why did you do that? Was it like Mt. Everest, because they were there? Or was it because everyone else does it so you have to in order to be competitive? And now you're just like they are, defeating the purpose of attributes in the first place (as a measure of one person's ability vs. another's). That's a pretty big disconnect between how these systems are intended to function and how they are being used.

Many of the recent Olympians and national champions actually DO have master or doctorate degrees in the computer, physical and biological sciences.  It IS possible to have both intelligence and physical prowess.  It's just not universal.  And if you look at the broad range of players in the game.. it's not universal there to see characters who do both magics and melee. 

The easy answer is somewhere there's another person who is better at computers and physical or biological sciences than the Judo guy. Even if that's not true in real life, it needs to be in a role playing game for niche protection. No one is saying you can't do both, what we're saying, or at least what I'm saying, is that the top of one field should not be at the top of the other simultaneously (unless they are related). So Tesla should not mix with Miyamoto Musashi to make super intelligent unstoppable guy. In game terms, you shouldn't be able to max both and still be just as good as any guy who maxed one. Otherwise, why would anyone only max one?

Secondly, I'm one of those players trying to gain high stats if not maxed in everything.  ...  And it's not hurting someone else by me sitting in a wilderness training, anymore than it hurts mine by someone sitting at a furnace. 

Fine, go forth. But the game should not allow you to max every ability and skill. If the goal of the game is to max every stat, then all characters will have basically the same progress and same result, only the RP is different. If that is the case, why pretend there's any differentiation in skills and stats to make them unique? Just drop that abstraction and compare something more general such as using base level as the true measure of your progress. Once you hit max in everything all chars are the same anyhow.

If you insist upon imposing restrictions like this, you will run players off to other games, where they can grind to their heart's content, without people whining about it.  And it won't just be the PLers who leave, it will be the people who choose to explore every side of the game, but find some of them summarily closed to them. 

That's why no one plays WOW for example, because it's too balanced (by the way, I've never played WOW but people seem to like it).

Imposing restrictions like this hinders character development over time.  It means whatever path you start on, you have to finish.

No it doesn't, it just means you can't be all things at all times. You could allow plenty of flexibility to allow a career change. It could warn you that if you choose to train X then your skills in Y might degenerate for example. Ultimately, the way you like it just doesn't make sense from a game theory perspective, sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

[Phantomboy86]

Most games that have classes offer the option to change your class. Some for money, some with like 'you get X amount of career changes before we stay stop those shenanigans'. Since planeshift is free, I'd assume it'd be free. Or if they don't want to add fancy options for it, you could just as easily ask a GM to cut you out of that path. (i know they can change peoples skills, ive seen it done)

[Aramara Meibi]

what if stats and skill levels could fluctuate? Like in Dwarf Fortress, if a dwarf gains competency in a skill, but doesn't use it, they become rusty in that skill, they grow less competent.

(i just discovered DF about a month ago, expect me to draw many comparisons to it in the near future)

[bilbous]

Thaloric, I did it because that is what you do in a role playing GAME, I didn't do it because I wanted to win the Improv Olympics.

It wasn't any trouble at all really at the time and it gives me the best results from using the skills I have. If it is now considerably harder to do then I might develop my character differently. I am doing more crafting now because it has become more reasonable to actually do.

I hate to tell you this but I am far more interested in the game development part of this game than in the artsy fartsy lets play make believe aspects others enjoy. Even at that my interest waxes and wanes like the tides on a Jovian moon -- you know the one or two that actually might have large bodies of liquid whatever.

People who just want to role play do not need any skills or stats whatever.

[Gilrond]

thalaric: I agree with Aramara here. It's better for players themselves to decide how to balance / develop their characters, rather than to enforce restrictive classes and other similar limitations. It's not the game for the game, it's for players. So if you aspire for ideal game, but players loose interest in it - you failed anyway. Also, if someone is "maxed everything" - it's simply not interesting to interact with such chars in some competitive RP, and those players know that.

Also, for those who worry about maxing all stats - don't forget there is a penalty of loosing progression points, which is already aimed at discouraging doing just that.

[Gilrond]

what if stats and skill levels could fluctuate? Like in Dwarf Fortress, if a dwarf gains competency in a skill, but doesn't use it, they become rusty in that skill, they grow less competent.

Rather loosing some competency (for a while) after a substantial amount of ale

[thalaric]

I hate to tell you this but I am far more interested in the game development part of this game than in the artsy fartsy lets play make believe aspects others enjoy.
...
People who just want to role play do not need any skills or stats whatever.

You're not here for the RP, fair enough. I'm kind of 50/50 on it myself. Then you of all people, if you have any interest in mechanics, should see why across the board maxing is pointless. What will you do with your next character; max everything again? Or maybe you're done now, because there's nothing else to do. I don't even care if they grandfather in your super maxed characters with any new changes. You can all be demigods for all I care, it'll add to the flavor of the game. Eventually though, if you want more people to play it's going to have to institute some kind of point to the progression, so people can feel like they're actually building something.

It's better for players themselves to decide how to balance / develop their characters, rather than to enforce restrictive classes and other similar limitations. It's not the game for the game, it's for players.

A skill based system is nice because it allows you to take advantage of a basically infinite number of character concepts, but only if you get the niche protection and balance right. Niche protection (mechanics that encourage you to follow formal archetypes, classes, professions etc.) allows for exploration of different character concepts and cooperation between different characters, with each making up for the other's deficiencies. Game balance allows for each niche to perform equally relevant functions, and allowing the mixing of those niches into an even greater number of specialized fields without completely surpassing them. If you fail to either create niches or maintain balance then there is really only one type of character, the one everyone is playing. Kind of like now. You can very easily encourage some niches in a skill based system by enforcing some limits. Balance is always harder.

Also, if someone is "maxed everything" - it's simply not interesting to interact with such chars in some competitive RP, and those players know that.

Not sure how to reply to this. Are you saying that I'm right, but it's easier to just ignore everyone except your friend's characters? Have fun...

[Aramara Meibi]

what if stats and skill levels could fluctuate? Like in Dwarf Fortress, if a dwarf gains competency in a skill, but doesn't use it, they become rusty in that skill, they grow less competent.

Rather loosing some competency (for a while) after a substantial amount of ale

hehe, in that game, dwarves are alcohol dependent, and can't get through the working day without a barrel of booze.

[Gilrond]

Not sure how to reply to this. Are you saying that I'm right, but it's easier to just ignore everyone except your friend's characters?

I'm saying that non competitive RP won't suffer from that, and if people want something else they themselves will realize not to use "maxed all" character for that. So far some key facets of the game are simply missing (for example alchemy and overall balance of professions and economics), therefore restricting classes and etc. won't serve anything good in the current situation even if you consider it useful in general.

[Tessra]

Even if that's not true in real life, it needs to be in a role playing game for niche protection. No one is saying you can't do both, what we're saying, or at least what I'm saying, is that the top of one field should not be at the top of the other simultaneously (unless they are related).

Why does there need to be niche protection in a fantasy setting? 

Secondly, I'm one of those players trying to gain high stats if not maxed in everything.  ...  And it's not hurting someone else by me sitting in a wilderness training, anymore than it hurts mine by someone sitting at a furnace. 

Fine, go forth. But the game should not allow you to max every ability and skill. If the goal of the game is to max every stat, then all characters will have basically the same progress and same result, only the RP is different. If that is the case, why pretend there's any differentiation in skills and stats to make them unique? Just drop that abstraction and compare something more general such as using base level as the true measure of your progress. Once you hit max in everything all chars are the same anyhow.

The goal of the game is something different to each individual player, and you don't have the right to dictate to anyone else what it should be.  [You collective]  As it is an RP based game, the important part is for the RP to be different.  Stats only matter to individual player goals: duelling, hunting, collecting, trading, merchanting.  And progress is also based on personal goals.  Some people don't want certain things, and that's fine.  They don't HAVE to train certain things.  Those people who choose to train don't go around complaining because someone doesn't have anything maxed.  Likewise, there's no need to take away the option for us who choose to train anything or everything.

That's why no one plays WOW for example, because it's too balanced (by the way, I've never played WOW but people seem to like it).

I'm going to hope that there's a significant amount of sarcasm associated with this statement.  I couldn't tell you a thing about how WOW is balanced.  I've never looked at it, and have no desire to play that type of game.  I dislike the run of the mill irritation provided by people with large egos, who cannot show others at least civility if not respect.

Imposing restrictions like this hinders character development over time.  It means whatever path you start on, you have to finish.

No it doesn't, it just means you can't be all things at all times. You could allow plenty of flexibility to allow a career change. It could warn you that if you choose to train X then your skills in Y might degenerate for example. Ultimately, the way you like it just doesn't make sense from a game theory perspective, sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

The type of stat-cap being discussed here, where you reach a certain level in one stat and cannot move up to a certain level in another WOULD cause that.  It would mean that once certain levels were attained, without GM intervention, you would not be able to go back.  One doesn't know where their character will be in 6 months, at least if they are a decent RPer, allowing themselves to be influenced by those around them, they cannot.  Things changed, and static caps will hinder dynamic development.  We're not talking change over days or weeks, but over months and years. 

It's not about the way I like it.  It's about there being no good reason to cap stats.   You cannot pull the "realism" card in a game that is full of fantasy and based upon the ability to defy the natural laws.  And to clarify, no, I don't think someone should ever RP having maxed everything, but I see nothing wrong with someone having the actual stats maxed.  There's a difference in being a Mary Sue, and having good stats because you worked for them.

I like Aramara's idea of fluctuating stats, if there needs to be any type of cap atall, because it allows for development over time.  But even then, you are limiting out the concept of the Battle Mage, or the Warrior Priest. 

[thalaric]

The arguments have been made on both sides, and if you still disagree so be it. If I continued to respond I would just become very redundant. The answers to all your arguements/questions are in my last two posts.

[novacadian]

thalaric, it is my feeling that the maxed characters which you are thinking of are probably owned by players which have been playing PS for a substantial period of time. They have played through times when some things have been easier (and others harder like crafting). Some have seen tria bonanzas that are now closed. That is just one of the perks of being here early.

At this stage of things it is hard for me to imagine anyone coming into PS, now, and maxing out in everything.

My approach has been to diversify attempts at maxing among different characters. One of my characters is a Priestess/Warrior who has never held a pick axe in her hand. Another is a veggie crafter who has never killed anything in PS. They compliment each other; as neither studies in areas where the other studies. 

We are in agreement that no one character should know everything about everything; yet like others on this thread it is, also, my feeling that that decision should be up to the player to decide how to deal with trying to explore all aspects of the PS mechanics while keeping their characters true to who they are.

Some may deal with that as life changing changes for one character or some may take my approach.

- Nova