Avoiding the superman syndrome by stat rank capping

[Gilrond]

As a side note about fluctuating stats - Dramborleg proposed an interesting crafting spell for imbuing items with some enchantments, which in process would drain different stats of the crafter (depending on the resulting effect). Stats can be retrained if needed, or one can RP exhaustion keeping them lowered.

[weltall]

The problem with harder over impossible is that given enough time, you can still end up with 100% in everything, which is also unrealistic.

so I must have found a bug in reality as I know someone who did that. they are usually called genius. I'm not one of them unfortunately (or fortunately depends on the POV)

[Phantomboy86]

The problem with harder over impossible is that given enough time, you can still end up with 100% in everything, which is also unrealistic.

so I must have found a bug in reality as I know someone who did that. they are usually called genius. I'm not one of them unfortunately (or fortunately depends on the POV)

Ah, but how many genius' do you know just walking around? Bet not more than one or two. Its a pretty small amount of genius' walking around, similar to not everybody up and going to the Olympics.

[weltall]

The problem with harder over impossible is that given enough time, you can still end up with 100% in everything, which is also unrealistic.

so I must have found a bug in reality as I know someone who did that. they are usually called genius. I'm not one of them unfortunately (or fortunately depends on the POV)

Ah, but how many genius' do you know just walking around? Bet not more than one or two. Its a pretty small amount of genius' walking around, similar to not everybody up and going to the Olympics.

that's why the correct way is increasing difficulty and not putting an artificial limit

[Pakarro]

so I must have found a bug in reality as I know someone who did that. they are usually called genius. ...

Actually, no. Geniuses would be people who are top in one field, or related fields, not in all. Again, there is no one who wins the Olymics in boxing (or Judo  ) and at the same time a Nobel prize in Chemistry.

Just to clarify, I don't mind having extremely strong characters (maxed or not) around - some of them I really do like. Hey I have them in the Family . But I think the overall feeling for my character is much better, when I have to decide where she/he/kra goes, instead of ultimately maxing all. And tweaking under limitations is (in my opinion) much more fun than knowing you ultimately are at the top and cannot improve.

Anyways, this is not a matter of life or death, just what I believed was a rather simple way to improve in game consistency and immersion.

Yours Pakarro/Pakerl
(name Pakerl not available in forums, due to confirmation letter problems)

[Bonifarzia]

It is not a bad thing that this discussion pops up again every now and then.
Still I think the actual way how physical and mental stats are trained now looks much like a workaround or a placeholder for another mechanism. Quite a while ago I reasoned about deriving those stats from the characters race and skills, but things get quite complicated when you try to dwell into the details, even though the concept looks very simple.
In the end, raising the costs for an otherwise effortless gain of instant training is not any worse or better than enforcing rigid limitations. Finding a proper solution will need some innovation.

[thalaric]

so I must have found a bug in reality as I know someone who did that.

Really? You know someone who has achieved the top of human experience in every attribute and skill? That's amazing (that you really think that).

[Mask]

As pointed out before, a fantasy game is not reality. In reality, people can't carry more then twice their own weight comfortably, nor do they use giant lizards to commute to work in the morning. Apart from being a fantasy game, this is a game in development. That implies that there are holes in the rules, settings and overall balance that you can not only fit your own hometown in, but your whole state - and you still would find plenty of space to store all the paperwork you need to do and know in Germany to pay your taxes. 


I guess it was just a matter of time until somebody asks for a reset or character wipe just to level the field again. And that will not happen, nor would it make sense (unless there is a major overhaul of many things that would make a re-level important for people to play the characters they want - and I doubt even then).

Instead of whacking each other over the head with polemics and irony, I think it would be a better use of our time to actually log on and roleplay - unless you join the Dev-Team or Skunkworks, most of these debates will be little more than quarries later on. Let's better make them good quarries. I want this project to go somewhere good. ^^

Also, because I can't help it: overcoming all boundaries of the own, limited body and mind leads to the development of technology. And strange ideas like singularities and transhumanism. And even stranger lines of thinking that involve implanted sunglasses and extendable blades at the fingertips. So yes, in any fantasy being perfect in (nearly) all/a lot of things is entirely possible and a common trope. Ascending to godhood voids warranty.

[Aramara Meibi]

It is not a bad thing that this discussion pops up again every now and then.
Still I think the actual way how physical and mental stats are trained now looks much like a workaround or a placeholder for another mechanism. Quite a while ago I reasoned about deriving those stats from the characters race and skills, but things get quite complicated when you try to dwell into the details, even though the concept looks very simple.
In the end, raising the costs for an otherwise effortless gain of instant training is not any worse or better than enforcing rigid limitations. Finding a proper solution will need some innovation.

Boni, I think I much prefer that path, tying stats to skills, so that as you progress in a skill, it boosts any related stat. Say mining for instance, if you slave away all day slinging a pick at rocks and lugging sacks of ore around, it stands to reason you'll increase your strength over time. Combat increases physical attributes, magical and intellectual pursuits increase your, well, intellect. Politicking increases your charisma and so on.

[Candy]

Okay, so I only skimmed the thread very briefly and someone's probably already brought this up, but while I like this idea, I really don't think INT should be limited by physical stats. The brain is a muscle too, y'know.

[LigH]

The brain is a muscle too, y'know.

The "grey matter" is as little a muscle as an "erectile tissue".

[Candy]

Okay, I stand corrected on that, but I still say physical strength/endurance shouldn't limit intelligence.

[LigH]

In real life, it usually does.

The best approach I know to train both physical and mental features may be "chessboxing". But I doubt that one person practicing the combined sport will also become a world champion in both separate chess and boxing championships.

And even among the physical stats only, there is usually a balance between specializations. Muscles for endurance (e.g. running a Marathon) need a different practice than muscles for quick strength (e.g. martial arts or weight lifting).

[thalaric]

LigH, your point is well taken and most people, even those who disagree with your position, will stipulate to it (provisionally).

I am going to do you a favor though, and intercept what comes next; the obligatory "But This Isn't Real Life" rebuttal. A few posts after, yet another post would have used reality to discredit any proposed limitations of course. Historically, it goes like this: (A) "There should be restrictions on training", (B) "No there shouldn't because of such and such real life example" (A) "Actually, real life doesn't work like that" (C who agrees with B) "But This Isn't Real Life". This circular logic has dictated the pace of the discussion for the last three pages.

So here's the core of the issue: In addition to not being an accurate model, maxing many unrelated abilities *limits gameplay*.

Here's how and why:
The top of character progression is a character with all abilities maxed
Thus, sense of accomplishment is skewed towards that character progression
Thus, anyone who intends to keep playing will have the same goals and motivation
Thus, in-game characters are extremely similar, meaning they act the same, have [many|all] occupations, and their stats don't denote relative meaning
Thus, characters don't need anyone else since they are equally skilled in everything as all others of their pp/tria level (no niches)

Anecdote. Someone in the game told me to contact them if I needed a mage. A mage, I thought, how quaint. Why would he limit himself like that? I already picked up magic for my Ynnwn since it is easy and useful. Am I wrong? Now I know the reader has not been paying attention for awhile since they are already skimming to formulate their responses. If any of you did make it this far, those of you who are RPers will begin to retort, "None of this is true, because I make crap up about my character that is not really expressed by in-game mechanics". To which the obvious answer is "We're talking about game mechanics, which does not affect your fantasy either way, so those are not germane to the discussion".

Now that I've structured all of these arguments into one post, it makes it really easy to reference it. Anyone who uses one of these tired arguments in the future should be backhanded with a link to this post. We should now be able to go new places or let the discussion die in peace.

[Rigwyn]

At the risk of verbally backhanded for disagreeing, I'll say this:

Imagine world A:

Everyone is completely self sufficient. They can smelt their own plat, craft their own q300 goods, and nuke anything that crosses their path - using axes, swords, and every flavor of magic.

Imagine world b:

Each character has strengths and weaknesses, hence they leverage off one another's strengths by communicating, bartering, and cooperating.

While these arer two extremes, I would rather play in word b or something fairly close to it than in world a.

World a is more typical and suitable for single player games. B, in my opinion, is more suitable for multiplayer games.