Author Topic: Implementing the Element of Risk  (Read 8948 times)

Illysia

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Re: Implementing the Element of Risk
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2012, 07:51:17 am »
Gosh there is so much to read in this thread. I've lost some thoughts by the time I got this far. Mind you that is because there are posts with content rather than "you are stupid poopy head" arguments  ;D



What it sounds to me what Aramara is looking for is called "Free Form Role Playing", and well its just not in the scope of a PC game let alone a MMORPG game.

I agree with Korumak here. I think that these ideas are good(although I don't necessarily agree with all of it), but when you break it down the biggest problem I see is not conceptual but the limits of technology and workforce. I don't think you can achieve this kind of detail in this medium, even with an unlimited budget.

Reminds me a bit of the old Sierra quests, where you poor char instantly died in a huge variety of ways, just stepping in the wrong direction, or pulling some wrong thing. They were rather fun because of the stress element (but at some point fun becomes frustrating).

I agree with this as well. For me the equivalent was Ancient Domains of Mystery (ADOM). The game is very simple graphically but highly detailed, you can do almost anything, and almost everything you do has consequences. However, you are doing good to keep a character for 5 mins since the odds are always stacked against you and then once you die, not only is the character good and dead, the game deletes the save file. This can get very frustrating very quickly. I like the level of thought put into the game but I don't feel like devoting my life to surviving the game since sometimes I just need a little something to do, not a major time investment.

I don't think ALL death should be permanent, but death should be made into a much more strenuous ordeal. Or in a Dakkruist's mindset, the perfect vacation getaway.

Death is an ordeal, the mechanics are not, and, to be fair, if you rely on mechanics to teach people to RP you will always have trouble. The mechanics will always be lacking in some way. Although I think a DR map upgrade with equivalent quests and items would help this issue greatly, if you try to use limiting mechanics to force people to RP the settings right, more than likely, it will just end up being frustrating to people and force people to just find OOC ways around the issue.



In the end, I think making actions consequential is a good idea, but it needs to be balanced with keeping game play open (and not burdensome) to all, including those that don't have a lot of time to devote to learning the quirks and plotting ahead. I think the best way to do this is to not completely overhaul the system, or really bust your hump trying to make a game more "real", but rather to make the game more intuitive.

In an intuitive game, mechanics would follow logically and would provide incentives to play along with settings. By incentives I mean making it easier to play with settings rather than against it. For instance, you don't need the DR to be so much larger. What you need is access to merchants, trainers, and items that are equivalent to what you can find in Hydlaa. It is is supposed to have the same kind of details that the realm of living people have and that is much easier to recreate via mechanics than it is with art. Further, the reason to jump back and forth is that you can't get everything you need where you are. For some reason there is a notion in PS that you must be sent all over the place to get you to spread out or to make the game play better but I'd challenge that as it only serves to make people spend less time in other places since they are so busy running the long quest routes. And it is typically just tedious and frustrating, not good game play.

It would take time to make equivalent quests and set up new trainers and merchants for each place but it would be worth it for the return. People could travel to Amdeneir and actually stay there and RP for a while since they would be able to do similar quests and get the training they want/need to do in that area also. It actually doesn't add much more than frustration to send people all over on wild goose chases and the travel time cuts greatly into RP. Even on mounts a lot of time is lost since there is a never ending stream of "go fetch it" things to do. (might I also add that this would probably cause fewer game stopping bugs than other features)

In addition, despite the fact that you could play the game without NPCs, let's just accept that people will generally follow the NPCs before they follow the RP, especially if they have never RPed before. I personally think we can do without relying on mechanics so much but I know people will do that so at this point I look for how to make the system half way work. Making most training available in all cities would prevent people from leaving RP situation to chase that next level in whatever, same with chasing that particular weapon type, so on and so forth. I can see some things being exclusive to certain places but not basic things and things that make the game more playable. Have one mount available outside of the winch and have better mount inside. Practical thing is now available to everybody but there is still something to achieve for those that want it.

On a topic more along the OP example. To make combat more intuitive. Damage modifers could be attached to certain types of blows and percentages would need to be changed to the types of blows. For example, a blow to the head could do way more damage than a blow to the arm but it could also be a more rare occurrence to prevent you from being insta killed constantly. It's not loosing an arm but for what it is worth, a blow to the arm isn't always a matter of a direct blow that takes off the arm. It might just be a glancing blow, but a blow to the  head is problematic pretty much no matter what. Brains are such fragile things. ;)

For the RP aspect, the community now needs to step up more like in the past, simply set standards and stick by them in their own RPs. Make sure, collectively, that your RPs work with the mechanics instead of against them. If you have fun RP, people will want to join. If you have certain standards, like not killing frivolously, others will eventually imitate so that they can have fun playing along with you. For instance, the guards can't bust every little thing because they're NPCs, but you should RP along with the mechanics and play as if the guards can, while in the city. Well for the most part. They can't catch every "little" thing but big things yes.

This will help to not aggravate the RP settings/mechanics divide further. The community was better able to self regulate this kind of stuff in the past because of unspoken understandings that developed due to the way RPers worked together (obviously not universal but more effective) to uphold certain standards. This is partially because the community wasn't waiting for mechanics to create a general consensus on things, they just played along and got a feel for what was expected. A lot of the mechanics weren't around then but the system still worked, so it should be even easier to do such things now that some more mechanics are around to regulate.


yikes! This is long for something that is not an angry rant.  :o

novacadian

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Re: Implementing the Element of Risk
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2012, 02:21:38 pm »
It would take time to make equivalent quests and set up new trainers and merchants for each place but it would be worth it for the return. People could travel to Amdeneir and actually stay there and RP for a while since they would be able to do similar quests and get the training they want/need to do in that area also.

This seems a great idea to me!  :thumbup:

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Ceraline

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Re: Implementing the Element of Risk
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2012, 03:14:00 pm »
This is not a flame (and apologies for its length), but a summary of my view which others may like or dislike. To explain my background, I first played this game over 6 years ago, dropping by on occasions to see it’s progress, and have played numerous (free) other games with varying levels of rp, some with some without game mechanics.

Since I’ve been playing this game the player base has always seen a small minority of hardcore rp’ers frustrated by the game mechanics or who don’t use it, some have left  :(, some remain  :). There are others who balance their rp with the mechanics as far as is possible adjusting to the mechanics at the time. The remaining are casual rp’ers power levelling, questing, chasing mounts etc. While it could be argued some of the latter should be on ezpcusa, I have seen many progress from their interest in the game mechanics to become very good rp’ers. My view is that the game mechanics should not be dismissed too lightly as it has and can attract a good source of new rp’ers while maintaining the interest of many existing rp’ers in trying the new features as they are added. The big weakness for rp here at the moment is the acutely small player base hence why I think any newcomers should be encouraged as long as they have some interest in rp.

However we should also remember that the game is still in development (and we are testers). The team is not large, nor paid, and is unlikely to increase significantly to match other games where revenue is earned either by upfront fees or purchases in game. Thus comparative development will be slow and limited with more enthusiasm in developing and trialling new features (e.g. in recent times – mounts, shields, leather/armour working, moving npc’s etc.), rather than ‘minor’ bug fixing and constant rebalancing as each new feature adds further imbalance. For me the main imbalance is the level of skills some players have through years of levelling (or exploiting imbalances). However this is currently useful for the developers as it provides a more varied base of testers from weak to the uber strong, but unfortunately gives a distorted view of capabilities than if the players were reset  (or rebalanced) allowing other parameters better balanced.  While not suggesting a review or reset until the developers are happy they have reached an appropriate point I think many forget the weakness and difficulties faced during the 1st few weeks or months.

Considering the points from this view, and developments I have observed:-

Combat: Many of my alts, though partially levelled adequate to their rp needs,  are easily killed by most creatures so avoid them. Regarding being randomly attacked for being too close I’ve seen Ulbernauts and other creatures randomly attacking miners or other unsuspecting victims in the past (maybe as it often added to lag and the npc server crashing this has been put on hold recently?). In terms of spawning and moving mobs etc. perhaps the moving npc’s experiment currently underway will yield coding to enable this development in the future? The other features you suggest , I think, may require diverting development but, personally, as I can disable the messages or ignore them from an rp view I don’t think it to be too important.

Magic: Personally I think standing on a rock is an exploit and should be frowned upon as is standing on the wall of the arena, and perhaps one day mobs will learn to climb  :D. Again most of my alts are unable to perform magic as powerfully as you describe struggling with mana and fear of death when spells fail. For years many complained about the weakness of magic and and I think a couple of uber powerful spells have again distorted people’s views of it. These I think needs correcting. Also the current development trend seems to be to limit higher levels to one magic way, which may not make mana regeneration, as an example, so easy for most. Balancing magic progress to match weapon fighting progress may be another possibility to add to the list.

Death:  Yes, I recall the intent was for a larger realm with shifting exits. I also remember being randomly attacked and being killed again as I tried to escape or wandered into the library? areas there though clearly this was more detrimental to the weaker players who could take hours to escape. As regards perma death it’s always been easy to play this for rp’ers. I’ve done it many times. It’s before you go in game – simply delete character. Most of my alts avoid the DR as if it were real death from an rp point of view.

My own ideal for the rp world here is better balance all around so rp’ers can use the mechanics sensibly without being upset by the uber strong. Some making goods, other selling, some begging, some telling yarns or entertaining in the tavern after a long day’s work, others sharing jokes and gossip as they toil etc. intermingled with the deeper rp’s. I’ve seen all this here in the past and hope it flourishes again along with a growing player base.

Dannae

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Re: Implementing the Element of Risk
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2012, 09:47:25 pm »
Maybe the experiment recently ended by Talad offering a specific server for non-RP could resurface with the exact opposite requirement, hard core RPers only.... and be enforced. Originally, the non RPers were reluctant to switch servers and lose characters and all there skills, but no such impediment would be an obstacle for those who play to RP. This server could operate under a complete other set of rules, possibly some even defined by the players.

Illysia

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Re: Implementing the Element of Risk
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2012, 09:54:47 pm »
On the one hand that is a very good idea but I think it would be very hard to actually implement. RP rules have always been a sticky matter. -_-

Aramara Meibi

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Re: Implementing the Element of Risk
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2012, 12:25:01 am »
Maybe the experiment recently ended by Talad offering a specific server for non-RP could resurface with the exact opposite requirement, hard core RPers only.... and be enforced. Originally, the non RPers were reluctant to switch servers and lose characters and all there skills, but no such impediment would be an obstacle for those who play to RP. This server could operate under a complete other set of rules, possibly some even defined by the players.

that's not a bad idea at all. of all the RPers I've had the pleasure of interacting with, they all seem to be an agreeable sort. Sure it may be chaotic at first, but it's worth the experiment, is it not?
all blessings to the assembled devotees.

Rigwyn

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Re: Implementing the Element of Risk
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2012, 12:51:46 am »
Getting off topic a little, but that second server is being used for testing.. which is really needed for stability. The idea of an RP-Only or Elite-RP server has been bounced around in the past and got a cold response for the most part.

tman

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Re: Implementing the Element of Risk
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2012, 03:16:02 am »
If all the hardcore RPers leave who's gunna be around to teach us n00bs how to RP well? :P
You can't teach a pig to sing.  It'll never work, and you'll annoy the pig.

Aramara Meibi

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Re: Implementing the Element of Risk
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2012, 04:22:37 am »
If all the hardcore RPers leave who's gunna be around to teach us n00bs how to RP well? :P

excellent point. but I don't think the idea is to create an exclusive server. Personally I strive for full inclusion in RP, but frustration arises when there is an active RP taking place, with players actively ignoring it while they grind away. The intent of the original suggestion in this thread was to try and find a way to bring together the grinders and the RPers into a system that works for both. I just get frustrated in feeling that there are two separate games taking place, and the direction of development seems to favor one over the other.

Now, there ARE players who somehow find a way to play both games, and Gods bless them. Maybe one day they will let us in on their secret. But if there was a strict RP server, I'd imagine it'd be a bare bones version of the game. Basically just the physical settings, no NPCs, sparse mobs, items to use as props, and really that's it. New RPers would surely be welcome and encouraged greatly.
all blessings to the assembled devotees.

Illysia

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Re: Implementing the Element of Risk
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2012, 04:45:43 am »
My advice would be to let the grinders alone and include them if they ever come around. Trying to force people together created more friction, trying to explain how to play together, trying to ask them to play together, trying to make incentives for them to play together etc... all ended up making matters worse until everyone left. Better to just leave a spot for them and hope they eventually like what they see and come around.

bilbous

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Re: Implementing the Element of Risk
« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2012, 07:43:50 am »
I am a grinder. I rarely do anything that is not advancing my characters skills. I talk a lot in gossip and less in main. I do not suppose I have much of a character that isn't also my own. There are others like me and we are the ones the coders code for. Play out your stories great and small and enjoy them as much as you want. You are as the nobility playing games over top our workaday world. Do not fault us for our lack of imagination for you need none of the worldly trappings we crave.

Or some such nonsense like that. :)

weltall

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Re: Implementing the Element of Risk
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2012, 10:17:20 am »
so you are suggesting to bring up a database with just svn data and be fine with it. Essentially the game was finished years ago.

Pakarro

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Re: Implementing the Element of Risk
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2012, 11:15:40 am »
The rp only concept sounds very nice, but it has a huge problem. It will only work for people who got a lot of time to be online. For casual players like me, e.g., it is a problem to hard core rp. We need the npc-s. I was online yesterday, but will be back next weekend, maybe. The npc doesn't mind, but for rp fellows it would be really annoying to have to wait for someone who only appears sometimes, and at unpredictable times.

And please stop to address people as grinders in a deprecatory way who just develop their character along the game's rules.
 
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novacadian

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Re: Implementing the Element of Risk
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2012, 11:52:01 am »
so you are suggesting to bring up a database with just svn data and be fine with it. Essentially the game was finished years ago.

My feeling is that to the more extreme of RPers (and that word is used solely in the context of what it means on PS) you are correct weltall. What surprises me is that someone has not picked up the ball; immersed themself/selves in Blender; and gotten on with it.   In my opinion, the generous gift of the svn package leaves little room for whining.

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Eonwind

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Re: Implementing the Element of Risk
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2012, 12:20:02 pm »
My advice would be to let the grinders alone and include them if they ever come around. Trying to force people together created more friction, trying to explain how to play together, trying to ask them to play together, trying to make incentives for them to play together etc... all ended up making matters worse until everyone left. Better to just leave a spot for them and hope they eventually like what they see and come around.

Exactly my point of view, it is not only wrong to force people into a RP but also counterproductive.
Just an example: what if someone is playing a RP about mature or bloody contents and another player would not feel comfortable with such themes and wants to drag him in at all costs? It would not only be a good way to have that a player log off but it could even be considered lack of respect.
I think that letting me the opportunity to join the RP or just ignore it would have the best chances to have that player join the RP (in the future) or not having him trying to avoid the RPing char in the future.