Godmodding, Azure Way, and You

[Aramara Meibi]

Hello friends, enemies,

This issue has popped up twice recently, once in RP, and once in an unrelated conversation, on how to best RP the use of magic, particularly that of Azure Way, and avoid godmodding. So, for the curious beginners and veterans alike, I would like to create this thread as a collective of tips, suggestions, and polite conversation on the topic.

First, let's cover the definition of godmodding and discuss why it's unfavorable. Godmodding in RP is understood as defining the results of your characters actions without the input or consent of your fellow players. This can be in the form of including a statement such as "You find my character to be dead sexy and pleasant all the way around" in your character description or even railroading a plot towards a desirable conclusion. Of course, we are all guilty of this in one form or another from time to time, for it is difficult to avoid, but it is generally understood to be bad form. The point here is to understand why it's bad form and how to avoid it as best as you can.

Now, I would like to focus on the use of Azure Way in RP, but feel free to discuss any other areas as you see fit. Azure Way, as you may or may not know, deals with the psychic/mental end of the arcane spectrum (also, somehow air and wind is involved), and thus includes spells such as sleep, phantasmal voices, etc. but also can be RPd as creating illusions, reading minds, mind control, etc.

So, how to play this well? and what to avoid?

The best way to play the use of Azure Way, or any way for that matter, or really any action, is to describe the INTENT of the action, and let the player/s the action is directed at decide whether or not it is successful. Do not describe the results of your actions, unless they are acted upon yourself, or maybe an inanimate object.

As far as creating illusions, it would be good form to describe the intended illusion and let the other players decide whether or not their characters fall for it. As far as reading minds, it is good form to describe your character probing the mind of their target, searching for certain information, and let the other player decide which information, if any, can be gleaned.

It would be bad form to use OOC information about a character, without that players consent, in any form or fashion, even if you are a level 200 Azure Way mage. Most likely, if you had taken the time to RP out the action of probing the mind of that character, that player would be happy to oblige and play along, but if you blurt out information that your character has no way of knowing and say that you just read their mind, that's godmodding. Wouldn't it be more fun to RP out the action of reading their mind anyways? Maybe you might end up learning something ICly that you didn't already know OOCly, and that's always the best.

On the other side of the coin, various factors should be considered by the target player when deciding upon the success of the spell. How intelligent or strong willed is your character? How charismatic is theirs? Do you have extensive training in Azure Way and can you easily detect or block its use? Do the circumstances call for you to actively doubt the things you see, or is your character readily willing to fall prey to the illusion?

For example, an Azure Way mage is creating illusions on stage as a performance at a fair, the people in the crowd are more willing to let their minds be tricked by the magic because they know it's just a show meant for their entertainment. But, the mage on stage is truly devious, and once their mental guard is down, he begins probing their minds one by one for useful information. Maybe he learns of the secret combination for someone's safe, or that this character is having an affair with this one, or that this person is planning to poison their grandpappy in order to inherit his wealth. You can see how this would lead to further RP, no one ruined the scene by being THE big damn hero, everyone got to play a role in some form or fashion.

Well, I doubt I'm any good at these types of threads, and I'm sure I've come across as holier than thou and elitist, but I'm the last to ever claim perfection. My INTENT was to be helpful, you decide whether I was successful or not.

[Mariana Xiechai]

  I wonder where the inspiration for this post came from...
I fully agree with what you say. I feel like too many times people impose what they want on others. Granted, I can see that sometimes the wording can be tricky with that-and saying /me tries to invade your mind over and over before every attempt can be rather repetitive after a while. However, I really do like the idea of typing out the /me tries to...and then the description of whatever it is your character is trying to impose following after. That way the character being either victimized or helped with the Way can decide upon what to do.

It really does bug me when people just assume. "I read your mind and thus I know all..." Is a silly way to go about things, and boring as heck. That'd be like reading a forum post that contains personal information about a character, and then trying to say that "I just found out magically, I'm psychic, or some god or other told me when I went divinely scrying for it." If it's agreed upon with the other person, great! Then that's sort of like co-authoring and can lead into more interestings things. But to simply impose the idea is without a doubt god modding, and probably one of the most annoying forms I've encountered thus far.

[novacadian]

It seems to me that if godmodding was not such a known human condition that the original Dungeons and Dragons game would have simply explained how dice rolls work and explain how players should take turns rolling without any introduction of the term Game Master (Dungeon Master in terms of early D&D).

Thankfully the original creators knew human nature better than that. Just about any conflict sport has a referee.

Until GMs are allowed to step forward and become a part of RPing; referees if you will; this issue will continue.

It is my feeling that they should be called Admins instead of GMs at the moment; as the use of the term is totally misleading to new players who might expect some form of RPG-like moderating from them.

Any self moderation will only result in RP cliques; which has been my experience on PS.

- Nova

[Aramara Meibi]

well, Mari, I must say, your two characters Ziljhi and Barsidious are probably the best examples of good form in RPing this particular way. You never approach it abruptly, always giving small hints as to what the character is doing, building the spell up with little things like flashes of hypnotizing light in their eyes or such before the actual attempt to enter the mind. I've had the pleasure to be on the receiving end of both of these characters' spells, and you gave me the opportunity to describe my characters' mental space, which was an absolute thrill for me.

Part of the inspiration for this was a conversation I had with a player about Ara's pyromantic scrying/prophetic ability. I got some flack for it, was told I was godmodding and metagaming, but I tried my hardest to play it carefully and reasonably, only using information given to me by other players willingly for the soul purpose to use in that way. I relied on the other players to feed me the visions Ara had, and I made it so using the ability took its toll on her. Sadly, only about three or four players were ever willing to play along, but the RPs that stemmed from it I, at least, thought were enjoyable. I've downplayed it since then just to avoid the OOC confrontations.

You mention divine intervention, and yes, that falls into this category as well. In a world where the deities have an active presence, yet the there is a taboo against the GMs actually portraying them, it's up to the players to create their own visions, visitations, revelations, etc. But OOC info about other players' characters should only be used with their consent.

Nova, I agree with you on the cliques, which is why I think threads like this are helpful, or should be helpful. I'm sure there are many faults to find in my approach. But, I don't necessarily like it when players are avoided because they have a bad rap because of their RP style. That's not healthy for the community as a whole. Sure, a large part of the problem is we don't have a concrete set of rules such as D&D in which we are able to take actions and determine their outcome. Yeah, we have the game mechanics, but those are, well... that was a whole other thread that didn't go so well.

[Eonwind]

my view is rather simple: if you do not want to let game mechanics handle this (aka PvP - and sometimes some spells effect are not yet implemented) simply try to stick to the way the game is supposed to handle this.

since magic resistance has been introduced if Player A magic has higher skill rating than Player B, Player A simply succeed the attempt and the magnitude of the success is related to: (Player's A rating - Player's B rating)

if two players do not agree with the chosen effect (since existent spells effect are always acceptable IMHO while "custom" effects may not) or the players cannot agree with the magnitude they can simply and peacefully go their own way

[Chessire]

The way things are in Planeshift today I think the answer about Azure Way is the same as with any other kind of RP that involves a conflict. Leave everything up to your partner. Attempt attacks and let the other player decide what happens. If they are aware of the story they are playing, even a little, they will choose the most interesting things to happen instead of always saving their character's arse. Given how many RPers are in Planeshift today there are a lot of people that prefer a good story than having their character win. Many of us don't even care for the outcome, as long as cool stuff happens.

@Novacanadian: Its true rps in DnD are much more organised and failsafe but I think what can happen in PS is worth the trouble. DnD is like playing an official game with a referee. What can happen here is more like playing with friends while caring only about having fun, and not about the score. You will end up arguing if you are competitive but if not you will have far more fun.

About the azure way specifically its true it can be a very potent weapon in RPs. My opinion is one shoul avoid portraying their character with superpowers as inception of ideas to unsuspecting people, mind control and deliberate mind reading, unless there is a good reason and accompany them with serious defauts.  And remember the only worst cliche that a super powerful and all around perfect villain is a super powerful and all perfect good guy

[Mariana Xiechai]

Of all the Ways that can be used creatively, I think Azure Way is the best. I'm one for following in game things, certainly, but I'm very much against using STRICT mechanics to determine every little detail. It's. Freaking. Boring.
It's the difference between something like:

*BAMF hero A casts psychic darts at REALLY EVIL baddy bad guy B.
*REALLY EVIL baddy bad guy B gets a headache.

Or...

*BAMF hero A begins to manipulate the magick between his fists, attempting to wrap it in the air, extend it outwards towards REALLY EVIL baddy bad guy B, and crush his mind in a vice with the psychic force.
*REALLY EVIL baddy bad guy B falls to the ground writhing in pain as the spell takes its desired effect, and blood dribbles out of his ears and nose, results from the incredible cranial pressure being applied.

So. Technically there is no crush brain azure way spell. So does that mean someone with Azure Way ability can't do that? Can't at least attempt it? I dunno. I'd say probably sure, why not? Also, rather than just playing people like puppets, confuse them. I've always seen it as this thing that has the capacity to make folks trust in things that aren't there, play on their emotions, et cetera. Just killing folks splat all the time is dull. Vary it up by being even more nefarious than a knife-wielding PS version of Scream.

/ end rant portion

I got some flack for it, was told I was godmodding and metagaming, but I tried my hardest to play it carefully and reasonably, only using information given to me by other players willingly for the soul purpose to use in that way

I'm not sure who told you you were metagaming or godmodding, Ara, but from what I remember in those days you never did either. At least, in regards to my characters. I always found it interesting, and from what I observed her "visions" were not necessarily concrete; they were often vague, nebulous and undefined, which created half the fun of trying to figure them out.

Expect a request to use that ability in a collaborative RP in the future.

[Mekora]

Yeah, thanks for putting this out there. Although I RP my main character to excel in Azure way, I was always a bit scared to use it in RP situations other than doing things such as putting myself to sleep. The whole idea of manipulating a character that is not your own makes people fairly uneasy.

[Phantomboy86]

Do like where all this went and the great amount of agreement. Almost all magic users have some amount of hesitance to use their full extent of powers. I don't have Trav simply melt adversaries because thats BORING. Also I'm not that big of a d-bag. (Almost, but not quite.) Azure is probably the most complicated of all when it comes to such things. Anyone can come back from the DR after being melted, frozen, bludgeoned to death with rocks, but ensnaring the mind is not so simple.

Can't say much on magic resistance though, sometimes it seems to make sense, other times I don't know what they were thinking. (And god knows it'l go through phases of being useless and tremendously overpowered before its all said and done)

[Gilrond]

The tricky part is how to play this kind of RP in the on-line format in order not to make it too messy. When you are playing D&D or the like, you can agree on OOC things just talking this over pausing when needed. On-line with fluid participation it's more challenging. Imagine a case when you "probe" for information to act upon it. The person you "probe" can become aware of the fact (ICly), unaware and etc. Lot's of variables there. On the other hand, OOCly all involved parties need to be aware of what's going on and agree on some acting parameters (how can you for example play finding out some facts, without OOC feedback from the other party). Therefore the game naturally splits into two distinct communication channels (IC part and OOC supportive information).

[Tessra]

I'm personally not too fond of playing strictly with the mechanics.  I choose to have my character have zero RP resistance to Azure Way, but that doesn't mean mechanically she will be level 0.  I have to train her to make training other realms feasible [magical sleep].  But that's a personal preference, and I count on the people I RP with to exercise common sense and fairness in their RPs.  I've let people do some truly nefarious things to my character, up to poisoning her in a way that almost resulted in perma-death, simply because my character is a certified nit-wit, and not smart enough to resist that magic. 

All that being said, I have to strongly agree with Mariana on this one.  Let the other player decide how to respond.  If someone is playing having total resistance to all spells of that way no matter your character's skill or number of attempts, then it might be a good idea to talk to them.  Tell them OOCly that your character should have SOME effect for RPs sake, or, better yet... try to get that character drunk or in some other way impaired, and then attack again. 

[Rigwyn]

Ok, I sped though these posts out of impatience... that and because I have a perspective on this from collaborative writing that I think would really help here.

Firstly, I want to clear something up:

Until GMs are allowed to step forward and become a part of RPing; referees if you will; this issue will continue.

No, no no. Burn your dice and forget about depending on GMs, RMs, MOM-Ms, random number toys or whatever to make decisions FOR you. We are adults and can do this ourselves, thank you. The only exception is when you are dealing with a childish player who is incapable of being reasonable.

Back on topic...

Using Forced Actions

While its polite to use passive wording and to let the other player choose the consequences, when you do this you lose any feeling of domination in the writing. Let me give a quick example:

Vayl attempts to grab Rigwyn's face harshly and then slam his head against the wall.

This is pathetic and weak... the "attempts to" ruins the feeling. Compare it to this:


Vayl grabs Rigwyn's face harshly - gagging his mouth with the webbing of her thumb and fore finger as she digs her thumb and fingers into his cheeks. With a rage-driven shove, she rams his head into the wall with a sickening crack.

I can just hear people crying "Oh.. My.. God.. that's godmodding! Burn the sinner!"

The trick here is to discuss what you are open to with the other player in advance. Some players will be open to this, others won't. Likewise, some players will be open to a certain degree of forced action. They may be OK with things like grabbing and shoving, but not with calling the success and consequences on damaging strikes. You can also send an OOC tell to the player prior to the action if you are unsure if they will be OK with it. I've seen this done more in one on one collaborative writing sessions than in RP, but its something to consider. Worth noting, some players would enjoy a little forced action over passive wording, so it helps to ask.

Whisper Bless!

[Mariana Xiechai]

The trick here is to discuss what you are open to with the other player in advance.

I agree completely. For me, I've no aversion to using /attempts, /tries, or /as if...but then again I'm always flipping between ways to word it so that it doesn't get reptitive. I think a lot of people would be perfectly alright with this wording if they were asked in advance, prior to the actual event in a quick OOC /tell. Certainly, I would have no issue. I find adversity intriguing, and would welcome something like this.

Granted, there are those who refuse to get hurt. At all. In any situation. No matter if you fire a bajillion things at them and take a considerable amount of the hits they throw at YOU. They are still standing in their glorious crystal shining armor ready to put their foot on your chest in a pose of victory.

Lots of people need to learn this amazing little thing that Chessire stated quite nicely:

Given how many RPers are in Planeshift today there are a lot of people that prefer a good story than having their character win. Many of us don't even care for the outcome, as long as cool stuff happens.

If you can put out an interesting story, then please, if my character's being beaten to a bloody puddle on the floor helps the progression, do so. It's the story that the role play should be centered around. I've seen too many otherwise interesting interactions reduced to OOC whining because so and so refuses to take a hit, or won't cooperate with any action whatsoever, or just plum doesn't agree with taking the fall. It's a bit of a maturity issue, I know I had problems with it when I first started, but seriously. It's okay to loose now and then.

Role playing your character getting back up again after falling down makes them look stronger than they probably would have if they vanquished the villain anyway.

Don't believe me? Oh good. Then here's an example of what I mean:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFnWqdoboMM

[novacadian]

Firstly, I want to clear something up:

Until GMs are allowed to step forward and become a part of RPing; referees if you will; this issue will continue.

No, no no. Burn your dice and forget about depending on GMs, RMs, MOM-Ms, random number toys or whatever to make decisions FOR you. We are adults and can do this ourselves, thank you. The only exception is when you are dealing with a childish player who is incapable of being reasonable.

This only reinforces my point of self/player moderation resulting in RP cliques. Because my preference is dice then my game does not belong with you adults?  The game mechanics do not use them? Or are all players preferring PvP combat childish players?

My intent is not to flame; yet simply pointing out that the styles of play are so extreme on PS that only non-bias moderation could ever bring them all together. Without that PS will continue to have games within games; or cliques within cliques.

- Nova

[Rigwyn]

simply pointing out that the styles of play are so extreme on PS that only non-bias moderation could ever bring them all together.

Again, I strongly disagree. I'm not sure why you think there is a need for some external governing force to make things fair be it dice or GM. Players can work out their own RP. If you have trouble doing this, then you may need to learn how to deal with problematic or difficult players. Please don't take this as a condescending put-down... working with difficult players can be very challenging and the "How" of it is rarely discussed here.  We learn to RP, but not how to get along with each other.