Author Topic: Losing players?  (Read 15792 times)

Pakarro

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Re: Losing players?
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2012, 07:04:46 pm »
Blabla I should stop talking because Talad probably won't read this anyway :(

A reasonable start for you would be to stop that offending tone....

It certainly would be nice to know about the world before you start rp, _but_ most players will not like to read through tons of web pages before they even start to get into the play. So this is a loss-loss situation....

Personally, I think the graphics engine is a source of some problems. Clipping errors, where mountains appear when you turn your head are really an eighties' problem.

What really would be needed, again in my personal opinion (one of a large number :( ), is an interface between npc and rp guided playing. E.g. rp trainers (high grade players for a magic way, or weapon handling, or...). But how this would be possible without wide spread abuse, I do not really know...

And, for npc guided players: more and more consistent quest paths for developing a character identity on that base... As it is now: you try to be nice, ok, no sleep glyph. You miss one answer, ok, no creature glyph... but now I have four mind glyphs, and cannot use them for anything...   Such things are creating an inconsistent feeling.

So much for my 2 €cents, when I actually didn't want to talk in this thread ...

And, I started a few months ago, and I like the game, the people, and the setup. Thank you!


Glad to meet you :)

Illysia

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Re: Losing players?
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2012, 08:28:50 pm »
I told myself I would stop doing forum dissertations here but oh well. Even if I don't play the game anymore, I still seem to care about it.

We are doing this since some time already, but we try to have some new content anyway as it's needed to complete the setting and make some quest chains actually meaningful and enyoable. As stated above we are in refinement mode since quite some time now.

...

This is a very old point as well, but the reality is that we have more art than any other open source project, and we have lived more than any other similar project, which is proving the point our license is the best way to go. Also in my experience artists are very willing to donate art to a project knowing how this will be used. The people who are still complaining about the license after 10 years of us providing a free game to everyone I think have not understood what Atomic Blue is and what is our mission and phylosophy. Probably poor messaging on our side, but all people who understood it are amazed by it and our results.

Still on art, I think have some unique and wonderful assets, just to mention one the very inspiring skecthes about the race structures you can see on the race pages. Surely it's not as much as a commercial mmorpg, but we are back to the initial point of resources and time.

How can you help?
  • Find more developers who are interested in working on a real game, learn and contribute. Through your school, friends, buddies
  • Create more ingame roleplay events
  • Found new guilds a recruit other players. Create better and more interactive guild sites
  • Be friendly with new players
  • Post about PlaneShift in other forums and websites, vote PS up in sites you see, create your own fan sites
  • Create videos, screenshots collections, streams or anything else you think may advertize the game and post it on the net
  • Learn and understand who is making PlaneShift and how, why we are different and what a volunteer non profit org is
  • Continue to play the game and give constructive feedback like the one in this post, we usually read many of the posts

Ok, on the refinement thing.... Adding leather working doesn't really flesh out settings. It adds a new feature that may or may not cause new problems. Adding new models, although nice, are not rounding out settings. I can see refining quests to make them less clunky, but if you really want to refine the settings, work on writing. Put more information, details, out there for the players to work with. Props and mechanics are nice and helpful, but if the game has gone this long without them, it's not those things that were the driving force of player retention. ;)

On the topic of the art. The problem is not really the license, it's goodwill. I don't mind a license that protects the project from getting the rug pulled from under it, I do mind handing over my work and effort to a project that I no longer have goodwill towards. I'm afraid that many former artists and whatnot feel like I feel: there have been too many acts that were not made in good faith and too much ill will that still lingers. As for new artists, the game probably looks far enough behind to where many artists would rather look for a project that has more advanced graphics. Not much you can do there since it is a self perpetuating problem.

On the topic of player help... The newer players could stand to do more. The initial player base of PS was small and grew, so it definitely can be done. But I've run into a great deal of apathy/laziness in a lot of newer players. There are some that definitely work hard to try and build up the game but I don't think there are enough and this is a big job to place on their backs. Older players aren't likely to keep trying in any great numbers, again, it's the goodwill thing. Really, guilds and events and all of that are going to amount to a great deal of nothing if the RPers don't pull together and work on their cohesion.

There have been a couple events in the last several month, there are always guilds around, and usually there is someone RPing. Player count jumped for a moment then plummeted worse than I have ever seen. It's not like it used to be where RPers clumped in the face of RP being affected or dropping off. Say what you want, but it did stem the hemorrhage of RPers for awhile. Players need to actually spend time developing the community by building closer ties to each other. To a certain extent, they just need to build an OOC rapport with each other. Right now players don't seem to feel inclined to stop doing boring stuff just to go find someone they like RPing with. :/

It really should be much easier to build PS up right now since most of the flamewars and anger have left, but in a way the apathy is worse. At least when people were foaming at the mouth, it was because they cared. A lot of the people that complained and struck out the most would also turn around and still try and do something for the good of the game. If there is one thing that would really help, it would be doing something about the apathy. However, I admittedly have no idea on how to do that in the game's current environment.

Primordial

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Re: Losing players?
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2012, 10:44:03 pm »
Dynamic world occurrences. This is never going to compete with the likes of WoW, but as it stands now, it's just as static, with 95% less content.
The planeshift setting could be made very much more enjoyable, and exciting, by introducing dynamic, random, events in.

Also - challenge, reasons to group. I've said before that there is no point to hunting if the mobs just stand there, for the most part, and wait for you to hit them. I heard that they were switched off of aggression, because they were 'too hard'. Cry more. Danger is good.

Danger and dynamic content is fantastic.

Hence, I think, that when the AI tribes update finally gets put in place, then things will start to pick up again - because that creates interesting scenarios.

At the moment there are no interesting new scenarios.

Imagination and community roleplay is all well and good, but if the world is static then you run into a fairly static number of things you're able to feed off of. If you can create emergent gameplay then you can feed imagination. Look at Dwarf Fortress and the number of insane stories that game comes up with, based on entirely on the shenanigans of a bunch of crazed ASCII symbols. Admittedly it doesn't work quite the same way in an MMO, but it's a good example of how the two intertwine.

One cannot simply fall back on the community, when other games offer more to feed their communities.
Games like Ryzom, for instance, have interesting little quirks - for instance, their animals migrate and go places. They interact with each other - predators will hunt other animals, etc.
In the tribes system you have various AI needs - people will naturally prefer one tribe over another. This will create interesting player interaction, based entirely around game mechanics, if you take it far enough.
Tell me that the community would not feed off of things like this.

What we have is too static. You cannot rely on GM events all the time. Feed the community, and the rest follows naturally. Humans attach narratives to everything and anything. 
« Last Edit: March 30, 2012, 12:23:43 pm by Primordial »

Zalya

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Re: Losing players?
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2012, 11:14:59 pm »
There have been a couple events in the last several month, there are always guilds around, and usually there is someone RPing. Player count jumped for a moment then plummeted worse than I have ever seen. It's not like it used to be where RPers clumped in the face of RP being affected or dropping off. Say what you want, but it did stem the hemorrhage of RPers for awhile. Players need to actually spend time developing the community by building closer ties to each other. To a certain extent, they just need to build an OOC rapport with each other. Right now players don't seem to feel inclined to stop doing boring stuff just to go find someone they like RPing with. :/
To be fair a lot of that has to do with scheduling. Numbers always drop dramatically around finals, and midterm times, and rise during vacations and the summer. At this point in the year I think that a lot of the players who would be online have either work, or school to do. Of course that doesn't account for all of it, it does explain some.

I told myself I would stop doing forum dissertations here but oh well. Even if I don't play the game anymore, I still seem to care about it.
Well I could have told you that :P Planeshift does have life in it still. If people do what they can than we can make things thrive again.
(23:25:58) Elady says: Zalya are you trying to eat a ruby?
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Kwip

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Re: Losing players?
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2012, 12:04:14 am »
Perhaps one could email occasional updates to the players on the progress of the project.  If it doesn't get lost in the spam folder it could bring back old players.  Now I am not sure how feasible this would be with the massive number of accounts, or if it would be an unwanted nuisance, but it might be worth a try.
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Illysia

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Re: Losing players?
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2012, 04:46:34 am »
Whatever solution PS uses, it's going to have to be the one that requires the least resources. :/

To be fair a lot of that has to do with scheduling. Numbers always drop dramatically around finals, and midterm times, and rise during vacations and the summer. At this point in the year I think that a lot of the players who would be online have either work, or school to do. Of course that doesn't account for all of it, it does explain some.

Well I could have told you that :P Planeshift does have life in it still. If people do what they can than we can make things thrive again.

Yeah but it rose the highest during what would qualify as being in session for school and starting new years for businesses. Also, the dips and peaks are much lower than last year for the same time. I saved the graphs somewhere. XD They problem is that there are players in the game but they haven't come together enough to feel like a "community". People always go out of their way for having fun, the fact that people aren't going quite as far now is evidence of lack of fun connected to the game, but that is a much harder thing to manage.

Also, despite my still having a bit of a soft spot for PS. Giving suggestions is pretty much about as far as I will go at this point. Especially that I now have another outlet for the kind of RP I like, I don't have to come back and try to make RP work out of nostalgia and desperation for the kind of fun I used to have. I doubt you will get former players back since those that didn't leave because of disillusionment probably left because of technical difficulties and now requirements are even higher. But if you focus on new players, you stand a chance.

Vankseal Serozan

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Re: Losing players?
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2012, 05:08:16 am »
Its nice to hear what others think on the mater, I don't agree with all of it but I see some valid points. For me personaly I don't believe ps will ever be as good as Skyrim or any other new game. I think its impossible to please every player that comes along and the only ones that will stay are the ones that see the true value of ps and can enjoy its very immersive evironment. I have always played with the hope to see it become more and more immersive as I find that I love a game if I feal like I am actualy a part of it. I look forward to future content with great anticipation.

Illysia

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Re: Losing players?
« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2012, 05:49:33 am »
PS's community coupled with imagination can provide a more than suitable immerssive environment, perhaps better that more visually developed games, but if all you have is the base game... then yeah, that will never be able to compete with commercial games. :/

I have to admit though, PS has spoiled me with not having those short character limits and /me working in tells along with /my.

derula

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Re: Losing players?
« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2012, 02:06:02 am »
Blabla I should stop talking because Talad probably won't read this anyway :(
A reasonable start for you would be to stop that offending tone....

I feel like I should add that I'm not intentionally sounding offensive, and I'm really sorry if that's how I sound. (I've made this experience before in communities I wasn't convinced I belonged in, that people started telling me I was sounding too offensive, but I thought I had improved... apparently, I was wrong. I'm really sorry for that. I will stop posting here. I just wanted to help. Sorry.)

bilbous

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Re: Losing players?
« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2012, 03:28:50 am »
Your comments were spot on Derula, it was the throwaway last statement "blabla...etc" that left a bad impression. I've long regarded the 'spoilophobia' as excessive and contrary to good gameplay. If you cannot know the local commons without living through them for a long time then it is  a bit much to be asked to put up with consistent nit picking that you're doing it wrong. Maybe just maybe I'm doing it wrong because there is no way for me to know what is the right way and I just have to try to muddle through as best I can. If I join a new game and people are always correcting my manners I'm going to stop playing pretty soon and if I get really offended by it I am going to make as big a stink as I possibly can burning my bridges.

Vakachehk

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Re: Losing players?
« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2012, 05:25:54 am »
This is what I believe is the matter at hand.

When I first started playing Planeshift it was well populated with players. Player turnover is a very typical thing in Planeshift and has been in many other games, there is no problem with losing old players. People come on a game, get addicted, start to get bored of it, sometimes join the Dev/GM team, stick in there for awhile and then become pop-in-ers (come on every now and then). Then never seen again or seen 2 years later.

If a game loses a large number of experienced and older players quickly in a short amount of time, then the amount of newer players don't stay as long.

When I started playing Planeshift back in the old days of Steel Blue, there was a large number of new players coming through. When me and my brother first started Kore Irka Clan it boomed pretty quickly and we had plenty of new players coming into the game we could recruit. Some stayed longer than others, which is very typical.

I believe the devs need to solely work on and I mean for the next year or two. Is upgrading the Character creation (understand-ability), tutorial (new art would make new players go this is a cool free game!), character & NPC interaction (NPC speaking and mouth moving as a default setting), chain quests to make more sense as to where to start off and who to go to next. Generally making the game easier

Also redo Harnquists, it's storyline (from what I've heard) of the Octarchy paying for it is mary sue. It's a smithy and it should be dirty and what not.
You maybe roleplaying but you could still be OOC.

Pakarro

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Re: Losing players?
« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2012, 09:35:32 am »
Blabla I should stop talking because Talad probably won't read this anyway :(
A reasonable start for you would be to stop that offending tone....

I feel like I should add that I'm not intentionally sounding offensive, and I'm really sorry if that's how I sound. (I've made this experience before in communities I wasn't convinced I belonged in, that people started telling me I was sounding too offensive, but I thought I had improved... apparently, I was wrong. I'm really sorry for that. I will stop posting here. I just wanted to help. Sorry.)

Now I'm very sorry for putting my foot in...

I appreciate your comments, and, obviopusly, you have much morte ps experience than I do. So, please, don't take my remark too seriously. I just wanteted to point out that by that last remark you do not make the devs, and especially Talad very responsive to what you say.

Please accept my apologies for doing the same thing I accused you of.

Glad to meet you :)

Talad

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Re: Losing players?
« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2012, 03:38:16 pm »
I don't mean any disrespect here, but I get the impression that the dev team is more interested in maintaining a very small player base ( 30-50 players ) for the sake of testing, rather than having to manage a large player base of say 100-200 players. Is this the case?

Absolutely not, we want as many players as possible, actually going back to about 200 concurrent players and then to about 500 is a goal we have since some time. More players generate more potential new developers as well.

From a recent session (within the past week) while guiding a new player around:
"(01:06:09) [Tell] Name withheld tells you: Going from NWN2 and skyrim to this...I don't know if I can tolerate it tbh. I could overlook the appaling 1990 graphics if maybe there was dungeons and a large player base... but a few dozen people and a clunky engine like this? don't know if I can take it"

If you compare us with Skyrim, there is definitely no way for us to be competitive. We are bunch of friends doing PS on the spare time. Skyrim is the biggest RPG title to date worldwide, with hundreds of employees working on it for years with estimated funding of 100 million dollars.

So perhaps a clear, concise explanation is in order? (about license)

There is a whole page on the license here, which includes also a short version. Anyway if you want a summary, our organization is made to create a free mmorpg game based on community contributions and ensuring our project can't be forked/copied/dissolved. There are only benefits for the players and for the developers in such a model, and I think with 10 years of existance and improvements/expansion to the game that's pretty much proven.

I will give credit that you have improved the details page about races. That's definitely a start. However, there needs to be done more to enable newcomers to actually make up a character that fits in the settings.

Can you make a practical example of what you think it's needed here?

To be fair a lot of that has to do with scheduling. Numbers always drop dramatically around finals, and midterm times, and rise during vacations and the summer. At this point in the year I think that a lot of the players who would be online have either work, or school to do. Of course that doesn't account for all of it, it does explain some.

On the topic of losing players, that's normal between releases, PlaneShift is still in unfinished state, and people usually check in whenever we release something new, then after some time they lose interest and wait to join back at the next release. We didn't release in 4 months now, and that's why we have less players. In addition we never found a good Public Relation person, and our presence on the web is pretty poor. That's why we don't get too many new players (without mentioning the other 1000 MMO existing these days and not 6-7 years ago). As I see it  many pieces are really coming together, even if slowly and there will be a time where the chain will be complete and PS will actually start to be really fun to play; that day players will just flow in virally. So in general I think that improving the game is the best way to retain players.

I believe the devs need to solely work on and I mean for the next year or two. Is upgrading the Character creation (understand-ability), tutorial (new art would make new players go this is a cool free game!), character & NPC interaction (NPC speaking and mouth moving as a default setting), chain quests to make more sense as to where to start off and who to go to next. Generally making the game easier
As much as I might hate to say it, if you want to attract and keep roleplayers, this game has to, HAS TO acquire a hardcore graphical update. 

PC animations neeeeeed a near-complete overhaul.
We need OPTIONS for armor and clothing for the PCs' appearances.

I totally agree with both, and that's what we are working on. The tutorial gfx upgrade is completed (same upgrade we did to hydlaa main some time ago), and will be part of next release. For char animations that's something I'm trying to improve since long time, but we never found good animators who really want to do the work. One thing we did is to improve the speed of walking so we can create more natural animations, also a fix has been implemented to allow smoother transitions between animations (you will see it in next release). For char appearance, I think will be great to have face morphing (like jaw, eyes, nose, ... changes). This is possible but not easy, and as usual requires someone who works on it with knowledge of cal3d and 3d animations, which at the moment we don't have (but it's on our priority list since quite some time now).

The planeshift setting could be made very much more enjoyable, and exciting, by introducing dynamic, random, events in.
...
Danger and dynamic content is fantastic.

Hence, I think, that when the AI tribes update finally gets put in place, then things will start to pick up again - because that creates interesting scenarios.

Yes, the tribes system is designed to do this, and we had pretty good improvements in this area recently. It's a BIG topic, and needs to be worked on from different perspectives (settings, rules, combat mechanics, ...). The base is really present now, needs bit more focus to really kick off. In terms of world interaction we decided to add the NPCs day/night cycle to have a more dynamic world. Still work needed here.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2012, 08:30:20 pm by Talad »

derula

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Re: Losing players?
« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2012, 09:36:18 pm »
Thanks bilbous and Pakarro, maybe I was overreacting but I've made experiences in the past that I appeared too offensive... (it's also why I try to rarely post here because I hold a personal grunge against the game which is mostly my own fault, and I'm afraid my personal opinion might make its way into what I say where it would be somewhat out of place; and I know that it's been a huge letdown to see Aiwendil post so aggressively after he's been a person I've been looking up to ingame, so I want to avoid being a similar letdown to others still in the game; but then probably nobody cares about any of this)

I will give credit that you have improved the details page about races. That's definitely a start. However, there needs to be done more to enable newcomers to actually make up a character that fits in the settings.

Can you make a practical example of what you think it's needed here?

Thanks for responding to my comment. I have said that before somewhere else, but I will repeat it, hoping that you read it (even if Aiwendil were right and you'd ignore it anyway...)

What I have seen in a different roleplay-centered game is the following approach: everything about the world you can actually play in is spoilers. You know about as much about the world when you get in as a new player knows about Yliakum. However, there is an in-settings explanation why: the actually playable part of the world is an island that is cut off from mainland, and only rumors exist about this island. The rest of the game world is decidedly unplayable, but documented. There exists lots of information about the mainland on their website: maps, country names and uniquenesses, cities and what happens in them, even river names, forest names etc; who usually lives where, what life is like in the different parts of the world etc. Everything.

I think something similar could be done with Yliakum. You could (for example) decide that the Dome is the only playable level, and all the other levels are non-playable. Then, you could write details about the other levels and make them freely available on the net. The only thing still missing would a reason why people have never come to the Dome before, or know nothing about it. In that other game, the island is really an isolated place, and people can't freely go and leave there. There's a legend about the island. There's rumors. No information about the island is available on mainland. The devs would have to find a reason why the Dome is isolated, so that there's an actual reason newcomers know nothing about the area they live in (being newcomers from one of the other levels). Of course, it would require a change in the settings... I cannot tell how much would need to change, because I don't know all of settings. But I think it would be possible.

Now there's those who said "nobody reads all that crap to play a game". I'm not so sure! That other game is
- German only
- 2D with not very pretty graphics
- Non-commercial
and I think it has a larger player base than PlaneShift (judging from their IRC channels; I've not actually played it). The thing is that it works so much better for serious roleplayers, I think.

NOW.

If you're going to do that, there is four more things that game has, and I think are VITAL for the concept to actually work. These are:
- VERY strict RP rules and enforcement
- New character accounts NEED a two-page back story for the character and are only activated if another player (something like an advisor in PS) confirms that the story is good and fits settings
- A startup bonus for new characters
- Death isn't free.

On RP rules: I'll name an example. They have a rule that magic use NEEDS TO be RPed before the actual use. If you get caught not doing that, you can get banned. Obviously, bad names aren't only renamed if a lazy GM stumbles across them, but would never make it through character activation. And so on.
On character activation: this is the most important thing that is missing with PS I think. Here, people can just create an char and jump right in. This might lead to more new characters in the short term, but also to DISCOURAGEMENT of serious roleplay. It's just not worth trying to ask someone for the way to somewhere when his desc is empty. And so on. If there IS information, people are encouraged and supported in giving serious thought to their characters. In the long term, I can't think of any better concept to have a REAL RP based game going well.
On the startup bonus for new characters: when you create a character, you select their race, job etc. and according to your selection, you start with a default set of clothes (instead of naked), weapons/items, food, and/or money (and well, some ranks in certain skills, but PS already has that).
On death: If a character dies three times, there is a team (i.e. Godly) discussion about whether or not the character will be allowed to live once more. (of course, bug-induced deaths shouldn't be counted in)

Now you might wonder if that's not more team involvement than you can handle. On the one hand, it's probably too much for only the GMs to handle. But there's also the possibility of player councils (as I said, similar to advisors). Obviously, I can't tell if it will work for PlaneShift. But it works for that game very well, although it is in some ways inferior to PlaneShift in mechanics or graphics. (Not in all ways, obviously; there's a job system in place which is far superior to PS' in my opinion; it limits the leveling of skills based on creation choices; but then that's okay imho because it makes people seriously think about how they set up their character.)

Now I'm gonna say. That game is built on top of the Ultima Online engine, which is a commercial effort. However, all the game's story and settings, the char creation etc, the races and... I guess at least some of the graphics are all created in a free effort. I'm aware PS' engine might never be perfect, but I don't think that's PlaneShift's main problem. The main problem is that "identity crisis". And I can't think of any other way to solve it than through the above.

But that's just my opinion.

Aramara Meibi

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Re: Losing players?
« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2012, 10:37:07 pm »

On the topic of losing players, that's normal between releases, PlaneShift is still in unfinished state, and people usually check in whenever we release something new, then after some time they lose interest and wait to join back at the next release. We didn't release in 4 months now, and that's why we have less players. In addition we never found a good Public Relation person, and our presence on the web is pretty poor. That's why we don't get too many new players (without mentioning the other 1000 MMO existing these days and not 6-7 years ago). As I see it  many pieces are really coming together, even if slowly and there will be a time where the chain will be complete and PS will actually start to be really fun to play; that day players will just flow in virally. So in general I think that improving the game is the best way to retain players.


The real big problem here is that there is nothing that separates or delineates PS from the rest of the 100000 MMOs out there. I think the developers need to be thinking of ways to make this game unique, different, than all the others. That's how you create draw. Instead, I see the design of this game falling into all the same potholes and traps that all the other games do. The one thing that does separate us, as i said before, is the community. The question we should be asking is not, 'Why are people leaving?" but "What makes you stay?" Take those values and build upon them.

I know why I stay, and it's because I see the value of this game as a storytelling and creative medium. Not only are we free to RP here, but it's actually the main focus of the player community. So, I would like to see more tools and features developed that build off of that focus.

Just off the top of my head here, but what about the game be developed more as a campaign setting than anything else. Then, give the players tools to develop quests, challenges, campaigns for each other to play. Maybe there can be two different account types, one that gives the player DM or GM like capabilities (in the tabletop sense of the term, not how the GMs function now), Player created NPCs, spawning monsters, quest rewards, the tools to put other players through a good, healthy RP experience.
all blessings to the assembled devotees.