Author Topic: A new character creation and leveling stats/skills process  (Read 3349 times)

Jawir

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A new character creation and leveling stats/skills process
« on: April 20, 2012, 09:26:36 pm »
Hello, what I would discuss here regards the stats of a given character when created and the process to level up. As everyone knows, choosing a race and a gender instead of another is only a matter of appearance, and in some cases only a matter of names, because some races share the same model. So, I would like to propose a way to give a reason, to a player creating his own character, to choose the race and gender that best fit his own taste. In my opinion, a way to do it, is to give different stats and different ratio at which they level up based on the race and gender. So, we can identify 2 stages to do this: the stage 1 at character creation and the stage 2 when leveling the character. What I would like is the following:
1) Character creation:
It is known that each living beings has his own peculiar characteristics and those are common to his race. Being common doesn't obviously mean that all individuals have exactly the same characteristics, but they vary slightly based on various factors, like inheritance and gender. All this to say I would like that when you create a character, his stats are assigned based on the race and gender you choose. I would like also that those stats aren't statically assigned, but with the introduction of a randomness as none can choose how to be before he born. To make this we could have a Gaussian distribution for each stat (like for example the IQ curve, that it's a Gaussian distribution with an average conventional value of 100 and a standard deviation of 15). In this way we could have a population made by really unique individuals. We could choose as a reference the male Ylian, and to assign, for example, a conventional average value of 100 to all their stats. With those with reference, then we could assign a proper average value to the stats to all the others race/genders of characters defining in that way all the Gaussian distribution needed (well, it's needed to define the standard deviation too). In this way, when you create your own character you don't know a priori how you will be and if you are lucky, you could be even better than you could think!
2) Character leveling up:
The character creation it's only the first step of the process I have in mind. Let's say that each individuals have his own attitude to develop a particular stat or skill. To apply this to PS I would like that each stat/skill follow a non linear function "of the grinding" with its own saturation value (see attached figure named "a" where there is a saturation value indicated by NMs). Moreover, the leveling function could be different for each race, not in cap value, but in function shape, so some race could require more time/effort to reach a certain value than another, and so on. Here I would like also to say that i don't like too much to have a cap value of 400 for stats and 200 for skills. Instead I would like a cap value of 65535 (well, all of us know this magic number :P) that correspond to a value reachable only after something like infinite time of grinding. In this way, even if the practical value will be far less than that, i.e. the value where the leveling function change visibly its slope, the power levelers still will have a reason to stay in game to grind again and again. Moreover, in this way, if someone put in his head to be the best in something, with this leveling system there will be really the opportunity to be unique proportionally to the effort he puts on grinding.

I hope to have explained it in a understandable manner.

I see some drawbacks in the char. creation: someone could be intentioned to try to create new characters until he find the stats combinations he like. To prevent this it's needed a sort of limitation on number of char creations.

I would appreciate any opinion and suggestion on this subject: thanks of reading it! :)

P.S.: the image has nothig to do with this subject, but it resemble what I have in mind!


Bonifarzia

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Re: A new character creation and leveling stats/skills process
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2012, 10:42:24 pm »
I like your off-topic plots, but I don't like the suggestions so far much.
Everybody will agree that the character creation is not optimal in its current state, but putting some noise on top of the stats is no improvement. People will just "roll" new characters until they get the stats distribution they want.
I fully agree that an "asymptotic" learning curve for skill progression would be nice to avoid "rigid walls", but I would prefer the case where getting somewhere near the high end skill ranks should be arbitrarily difficult... so even though no skills will get past that number, there is always (a little) room to improve. Anyways, don't hesitate to elaborate your ideas and share your thoughts if you have more suggestions. Its an interesting topic.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2012, 10:50:10 pm by Bonifarzia »

Cirerey

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Re: A new character creation and leveling stats/skills process
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2012, 03:32:39 pm »
I like the concept that different races and genders can learn different skills more (or less) easily. It makes sense that a dwarf could become strong faster than an elf, and that the elf could learn agility faster. Likewise Nolthrir would have an advantage at Blue Way, Diaboli at DW, Dwarves at smithing, etc. A 3-5% differential in PP required would be plenty to enhance or retard a race in a given attribute or skill.

Jawir

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Re: A new character creation and leveling stats/skills process
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2012, 07:23:37 pm »
Thanks each one for the feedback, I really hope that eventually merging some ideas the system will be improved!

Jawir

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Re: A new character creation and leveling stats/skills process
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2012, 08:49:36 pm »
I like your off-topic plots, but I don't like the suggestions so far much.
Everybody will agree that the character creation is not optimal in its current state, but putting some noise on top of the stats is no improvement. People will just "roll" new characters until they get the stats distribution they want.
I fully agree that an "asymptotic" learning curve for skill progression would be nice to avoid "rigid walls", but I would prefer the case where getting somewhere near the high end skill ranks should be arbitrarily difficult... so even though no skills will get past that number, there is always (a little) room to improve. Anyways, don't hesitate to elaborate your ideas and share your thoughts if you have more suggestions. Its an interesting topic.

Thanks Bonifarzia for your PM, I answer you here because the system oddily tell me I can't send PMs...
Anyway, yes, y=(A*x)/(B+x) is exactly what I mean!  :lol:
Also I can tell you that I completely agree with you about increasing stats by skills training, but I didn't spoke about that here "to not put too much meat onto the grill". Thanks again!

Vankseal Serozan

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Re: A new character creation and leveling stats/skills process
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2012, 03:52:05 pm »
Hello all, yes I agree that races should have special traits that are unique to them. However I believe the idea of a character creation menu is to allow you to make a char that you want to play, not to have one thrown at you that you have to make work. Personally I think racial traits should be a mixture of advantages and disadvantages. Like kra have natural MA but they are not supposed to be great mages. Klyros can fly but they can't wear HA. I think if these ideas are built on and developed for other races it would make things more interesting and give a big enough reason to carefully consider the race you chose for the role you want to play. To be honest a soft lvl cap might be more realistic but I prefer a solid one personally. Over all nice post Jawir  :thumbup:

Jawir

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Re: A new character creation and leveling stats/skills process
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2012, 09:19:48 am »
Hello all, yes I agree that races should have special traits that are unique to them. However I believe the idea of a character creation menu is to allow you to make a char that you want to play, not to have one thrown at you that you have to make work. Personally I think racial traits should be a mixture of advantages and disadvantages. Like kra have natural MA but they are not supposed to be great mages. Klyros can fly but they can't wear HA. I think if these ideas are built on and developed for other races it would make things more interesting and give a big enough reason to carefully consider the race you chose for the role you want to play. To be honest a soft lvl cap might be more realistic but I prefer a solid one personally. Over all nice post Jawir  :thumbup:

Thanks for the feedback!  :) :) :)

Cairn

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Re: A new character creation and leveling stats/skills process
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2012, 02:57:14 pm »
To be fair, each race does have different traits that are unique to them. Read up on the histories and the actual race tabs on the PlaneShift site, they simply have not been implemented yet.
I regret to announce that this is the end.

I bid you all a very fond farewell

Jawir

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Re: A new character creation and leveling stats/skills process
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2012, 05:24:56 pm »
To be fair, each race does have different traits that are unique to them. Read up on the histories and the actual race tabs on the PlaneShift site, they simply have not been implemented yet.
Thanks Cairn for feedback, is it really the thing I had in mind when started this thread: to promote a development of a game mechanic that follows the race traits. Parts of them are where you mentioned and probably deeper details could come out from such game mechanics imho.
Thanks again!

Jawir

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Re: A new character creation and leveling stats/skills process
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2012, 10:17:05 am »
Hello, I resume this thread because some days ago I had a nice discussion with a friend of mine about the character stats/skills. He had some nice ideas, and even if we don't agree in everything, I think I should give him room here (he is a PS player, but has some troubles to get access in the forum) because his proposal is very interesting.
Following there is his concept.

First of all, his idea aims at the issue of people maxing out all, becoming clones of other maxed out people, so little individuality.
In character creation we are held to a profile of what we wont most dictates, and it dictates how we build our character. However we lose that initial profile in later leveling. So, the character creation should be the potential of the character and impact the max levels attainable. In that regard, he propose that, the actual character creation define the relative levels of the character as percentages that are mapped to a starting character and define the max levels attainable relative to the game max levels of the stat.
An example:
A new character Adam want to be strong and have high stamina, he has to put points available at that time to give points to his desired stats at the expense of others to create his strengths and weaknesses. Adam has chosen to make his highest stat to be STR then END, then set the others with the points remaining, having a minimum of course, to result in a curve of his stat preferences, best to least interest.
He was inspired by AD&D character creation, so:  use this "curve of preferences to map his starting stats with the lowest interest stat dictating the minimum stat number preferred for a viable in-game newbie, and distribut the rest up to a max based on a newbie max..." sort of DNA model in stat form. In this way, at character creation you define what stats could level up more, giving the possibility to those stats to go closer to the maximum in-game value allowed, proportionally to how many starting points you gave at char creation time. So, the more points you assign the closer the stats could rank up in further leveling to the maximum in game value. Obviously, having a predefined amount of points to assign, the more you assign to a stat and the less you can assign to others. The exact span of his lowest to his highest can be decided in rules, but the initial limiting of his creation minimums will keep his lowest from being ridiculously low numerically. Now how he chooses to train will never max all his stats to game maximums but to his potential based on his most desireable stats.

Ok, this is all, I hope I have been able to explain his concepts. Thanks for reading!  :)

Bonifarzia

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Re: A new character creation and leveling stats/skills process
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2012, 12:24:13 pm »

Yes, I think this idea has been around for a while. Once again, my impression is that a rigid limitation based on character creation is not a good solution here. If the effect of character creation on mechanics is inscrutable, players may get frustrated by the later handicaps resulting from their spontaneous creation choices. So what would they do? Probably look for spoilers, recreate a character with "optimized" stats and contribute to the next generation of "clones".
You can argue that a thought out and very well balanced system might avoid these problems. Still I think that plasticity is potentially a great thing in PlaneShift, where characters are allowed to evolve in different directions than their initial choices.

Last but not least: If you really want to introduce such a system, there is no way to apply it to already created characters. So this one will ultimately imply the evil w-word.

Eonwind

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Re: A new character creation and leveling stats/skills process
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2012, 05:10:43 pm »

Yes, I think this idea has been around for a while. Once again, my impression is that a rigid limitation based on character creation is not a good solution here. If the effect of character creation on mechanics is inscrutable, players may get frustrated by the later handicaps resulting from their spontaneous creation choices. So what would they do? Probably look for spoilers, recreate a character with "optimized" stats and contribute to the next generation of "clones".
You can argue that a thought out and very well balanced system might avoid these problems. Still I think that plasticity is potentially a great thing in PlaneShift, where characters are allowed to evolve in different directions than their initial choices.

Last but not least: If you really want to introduce such a system, there is no way to apply it to already created characters. So this one will ultimately imply the evil w-word.

I think Bonifarzia's is a good point, giving more in-game options can improve both character characterization (in term of stats and skills) and diversification in game, it will be hard to max out every single skill once they will be all implemented, however if we really want skills to have a meaning we need a maximum cap, otherwise we'll end up having almost no benefit leveling a skill from 300 to 301 for example. Another point is a matter of balance between different power levels or we may end up having too powerful characters compared to other.
However I'm in favor to expand char creation options adding more background options.
Also don't forget one day races specific bonus/malus will be developed, unfortunately it's not the case at the moment.

Jawir

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Re: A new character creation and leveling stats/skills process
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2012, 09:01:24 pm »
[...omissis]
Also don't forget one day races specific bonus/malus will be developed, unfortunately it's not the case at the moment.

Good to know! Really, this is one of the most important things imho. Even if the implementation isn't planned in the near future, I'm very relieved to hear that a day those will be implemented! I think to have enough patience to wait that day!  \\o// \\o//