tying stats to skills progression

[Aramara Meibi]

absolutely estaga, let's not let the difficulty of a task deter us. can it be done? yes. should it be done? that's what's up for debate.

'it shouldn't be done because it'd be hard to do' is, in my opinion, an unacceptable answer for that question.

'it shouldn't be done because i love the system how it is and being able to max out all stats and skills and become a super mega demigod with no weaknesses nor negative consequences' is an acceptable answer.

for balance I think what we should be aiming for is a system where different skill sets are needed to compliment each other, no one character can become all powerful, and every skill has its drawbacks, benefits, and limitations.

[Bonifarzia]

If your plan is to just add the "practice" aspect to the usual way stats are trained, then doing it via practice functions of the skills may be technically easier than through more generic things (e.g. running around for endurance). In that case the connections btw. skills and stats indeed don't have a big impact. It may get significantly more time consuming to train a new character, but there will remain a population of chars with all stats maxed out.
On the other hand if your plan is to define stats as derived quantities, where only developing a character with a matching set of skills allows you to specialize and reach an extraordinary value in one of the stats, then balance gets much more important. I don't say the difficulty is a reason to give up about it. It just needs some thought. Maybe this is something that could be discussed and sophisticated in the style of a skunkworks project. But then that still needs a little support from the rules and engine departments.

[tman]

My suggestion was simply to add the ability to practice stats by training skills, thus tying stats to skill progression (as the original post was suggesting, ie the example of progressing your strength stat when mining).  I wasn't saying that we should remove the old way of raising stats, just provide this alternative.

As for the issue of stat-capping or maxing out everything, I think that's a completely separate discussion.  It's something that's been tossed back and forth a number of times.

[estaga]

I'm not sure I have a plan. I am just brainstorming ideas to see how they might work to achieve the end result of doing thing 'A' affects stat 'B' (mining -> strength as has been the example so far). I am pretty interested in this topic becoming a feature in the game, I think it makes a bunch of sense. It allows me to play my character in a way that makes the story of her development (if you will) more important that trying to figure out which stat to raise. If she needs to make money, she mines and sells the ore. In time she becomes stronger and carry more of that ore to market. If she studies in the library or with magic maybe she becomes more intelligent or develops more charisma. Maybe through meditation on one of the magic ways she becomes more focused so her will stat improves. I want to play a role and focus on that rather than on leveling up.

Estaga

[Eonwind]

My suggestion was simply to add the ability to practice stats by training skills, thus tying stats to skill progression (as the original post was suggesting, ie the example of progressing your strength stat when mining).  I wasn't saying that we should remove the old way of raising stats, just provide this alternative.

I think there should be only one way to raise stats and if stats will be linked to skill training the current way should be removed.

[Pakarro]

My suggestion was simply to add the ability to practice stats by training skills, thus tying stats to skill progression (as the original post was suggesting, ie the example of progressing your strength stat when mining).  I wasn't saying that we should remove the old way of raising stats, just provide this alternative.

I think there should be only one way to raise stats and if stats will be linked to skill training the current way should be removed.

This would add a lot of reality to the character development. +++

[Jawir]

Hello, I like to see this kind of discussion is still present. Some time ago I started a thread with a similar, but not equal discussion, this is the link: http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=40815.msg458252#msg458252
Why I put this link here? Because when I wrote that thread I had in mind to develop this discussion in 2 steps, and that was the first one. Seeing that people were not much interested I gave up, but now my hopes have been awaken by this thread. I hope you find my post a starting point to merge the skill training/stat gaining discussion with a character develop/creation.
Thanks people! 

[tman]

I don't think making stats derived quantities is a good idea.  It's easy to imagine a very strong person who has no mining experience or has never battled with an axe.  Or a very intelligent person with no Brown Way or Blue Way knowledge.  So, deriving a character's stats from his/her/kra skills doesn't make a lot of sense.

However, it is difficult to imagine a very weak person who is skilled at mining or axe fighting, or a stupid person who is skilled in Brown or Blue Way magic.  So in this sense skills should be governed by stats, not the other way around.

The way Morrowind handled this (sorry to go back to that again, but it's one of my favorite games of all time) was to make it impossible to train a skill beyond the level of its governing attribute (stat).  So if your axe skill and strength are both 70, you would have to raise your strength to 71 before you could train your axe skill to 71.

I think a similar system would work well in PlaneShift.  It would prevent unrealistic character builds (like a really stupid mage or a really weak axe fighter).

[Jawir]

[...omissis...]
The way Morrowind handled this (sorry to go back to that again, but it's one of my favorite games of all time) was to make it impossible to train a skill beyond the level of its governing attribute (stat).  So if your axe skill and strength are both 70, you would have to raise your strength to 71 before you could train your axe skill to 71.

I think a similar system would work well in PlaneShift.  It would prevent unrealistic character builds (like a really stupid mage or a really weak axe fighter).

Ok, but the question is: how do you rise your strength to 71?

[Aramara Meibi]

I don't think making stats derived quantities is a good idea.  It's easy to imagine a very strong person who has no mining experience or has never battled with an axe.  Or a very intelligent person with no Brown Way or Blue Way knowledge.  So, deriving a character's stats from his/her/kra skills doesn't make a lot of sense.

i can see what you're getting at, but I think your point is best reflected in the base or starting stats. A character can start out strong sure, but must maintain and build upon their strength somehow. You don't get stronger by not doing anything. But swinging a pick and lugging around ore, or swinging a battleaxe and lugging around heavy armor should increase your strength stat.

[tman]

Right.  I wholeheartedly agree that raising your mining and axe skills should help you raise your strength.  And in the process of learning about Blue and Brown Way magic one would become more intelligent.  And so on, and so forth.

But if stats become derived quantities based on skills, then the only way to get stronger would be to mine ores, swing axes, or wear heavy armor.  That's fine.  But what about when you start applying that to other stats?  In order to be a very intelligent character, you would have to raise your Blue and Brown Way skills.  A person who wants high charisma would have to raise Crystal Way, Dark Way, and empathy.

[Eonwind]

There can be other ways to raise a stat other than skills, for example performing an action like running may improve the endurance.

[tman]

Right.  There SHOULD be other ways of raising stats.  Thus they wouldn't be derived quantities.

[Aramara Meibi]

Right.  I wholeheartedly agree that raising your mining and axe skills should help you raise your strength.  And in the process of learning about Blue and Brown Way magic one would become more intelligent.  And so on, and so forth.

But if stats become derived quantities based on skills, then the only way to get stronger would be to mine ores, swing axes, or wear heavy armor.  That's fine.  But what about when you start applying that to other stats?  In order to be a very intelligent character, you would have to raise your Blue and Brown Way skills.  A person who wants high charisma would have to raise Crystal Way, Dark Way, and empathy.

well, you're limiting your example to an extremely small sample of skills. this would apply to ALL skills, even those not yet developed. Hammering away at a forge all day could also improve strength or endurance, making alchemical solutions would increase int, etc. Even some combat skills could increase mental stats, ie. ranged would utilize will (i'm using will as the closest attribute to focus, which is necessary for an archer). You'd be able to build up your stats evenly across the board by choosing a combination of skills to develop.

but I think the point here is to limit a players ability to be maxed out across the board. I know we're going for an open character development system, and I think we can retain it this way, but a system in which every character eventually becomes a one man army is a faulty system for an RPG. Maybe i'm wrong, but I feel that forming a party of adventurers, each with their own unique skillset and attributes so that each player fulfills a crucial role within the party, is like the whole point of this genre of gaming. Cooperation, collaboration, team work, problem solving skills, being able to use the mechanics creatively to gain an advantage, etc. etc. That's what makes role playing fun.

[tman]

but I think the point here is to limit a players ability to be maxed out across the board.

I didn't realize that was the point.  And even so, I don't think making stats a derived quantity is the way to go about it.  All it does is encourage people to try to max their skills to get the highest stats they can.

Maybe i'm wrong, but I feel that forming a party of adventurers, each with their own unique skillset and attributes so that each player fulfills a crucial role within the party, is like the whole point of this genre of gaming. Cooperation, collaboration, team work, problem solving skills, being able to use the mechanics creatively to gain an advantage, etc. etc. That's what makes role playing fun.

You're right about this.  Unfortunately PlaneShift doesn't have much in terms of teamwork with regards to stats and skills though.

Having stats as derived quantities would probably be detrimental to this goal, as players would be encouraged to train skills outside of their original "class" solely for the stat bump.