Author Topic: The Gods Must Be Angry-DEBATE  (Read 1136 times)

Aiwendil

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Re: The Gods Must Be Angry-DEBATE
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2012, 03:08:09 pm »
All that being said, I apologize for burned feelers.
No need to...didn't notice anything offending in your post.

*sigh*. And addressing your "all your efforts" point.

Damn. Seriously? That just rips on everyone in this game. Are you that biased in saying that your realism is any better than theirs or mine?
Ugh, seems my bad English bites me again. At no point I wanted to say it's better. I wanted to say that PS has no pure thief guilds, mafia like connections or spying services anymore. These things are not wanted/needed nowadays anymore. "Realism" was maybe the wrong word to use there. Of course I enjoyed such RPs...or I wouldn't have taken part in them but my point merely was that people enjoying these things are gone from PS.



I know, being a member of the OL off and on at points throughout time, that the OL has always been a decent guild. You can't deny there were times where it fell prey to the clique and elitist attitude, however. There are prime examples of that as far as the eye can see.
Of course not...my RP guide I wrote for the OLs even contained the suggestion to just ignore players that annoy you. First of all PS is a game and meant to be fun. If something isn't fun for you ignore it. Illysia argued about that attitude pretty often with me but I still think it's the best way to handle it. Not everyone is able to play nicely with everyone else and once you had the efforts of many destroyed by a single player who messed up badly you get a bit more picky about the people you play with. It wouldn't have been fun for many duellers to be forced to include me in their battles either.


Does that make you better? No. RP IS and must REMAIN RP. How one person chooses to RP in a game will NEVER make it better than ANYONE else's RP, ever. Equality must reign supreme, else there will always be elitism and asshattery.
Again that better stuff...I totally agree with you here. There is no better. But calling it elitism or asshattery if people prefer to stick with the stuff that is fun for them isn't helping either.


For a ten year old to hop on PlaneShift and go out and kill someone because of petty jealousy or chemical imbalance does not make him any less a great RPer than...
Sorry, but yes...it does. I don't really like your example but RP is about leaving OOC stuff out of it. If your only motivations for an action of your char are OOC reason they you are not roleplaying at all. (Though I think I got this one wrong..I know ;))

I've worked with psychotics who kill because they have that desire to, with no reason or other rhyme.
Nobody denies this. Nobody would complain if that was the core of a RP once a year...but it is not...it's just overused..as killing in general is in PS. Definition of a baddie in PS: The person who kills women and children. Definition of a goody: The person who kills the baddie.

Aiw, definitely sorry if I took your post out of context, it probably seems like I did looking back on it :p
Yeah, sure...apologize again while I write my post. There is NO NEED FOR IT. These are the PS forums and this is one of the tamest discussion I have ever seen here.

Edit: Typos
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 03:09:56 pm by Aiwendil »

Cairn

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Re: The Gods Must Be Angry-DEBATE
« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2012, 03:24:03 pm »
Ah! See, I knew I took it out of context >.>

And again, sorry, sometimes I forget you're German :/ Not that being German is bad. It's just the subtleties in the English language piss even English people off.

Agreed on all points, though, save the OOC Reasons one - I meant if a 10 year old RPed having a mental imbalance, sorry, that was just bad English on the native's part ;D
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Illysia

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Re: The Gods Must Be Angry-DEBATE
« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2012, 03:42:21 pm »
Does that make you better? No. RP IS and must REMAIN RP. How one person chooses to RP in a game will NEVER make it better than ANYONE else's RP, ever. Equality must reign supreme, else there will always be elitism and asshattery.
Again that better stuff...I totally agree with you here. There is no better. But calling it elitism or asshattery if people prefer to stick with the stuff that is fun for them isn't helping either.

Yeah, I think we need to take a moment to address that often, this happens. Most of the time when we complain we mean no harm but most of the really nasty arguments started when folks got on their high horse and started mudslinging and calling us elitist, and profane names and what not... Even when we are trying to be nice and helpful. Not cool. Bad behavior doesn't cease being bad behavior just because someone thinks moral momentum is on their side. However, I do think some RP is better than others. But I base my judgement on storytelling ability not on content so much. And yes, there are grades of storytelling ability.

For a ten year old to hop on PlaneShift and go out and kill someone because of petty jealousy or chemical imbalance does not make him any less a great RPer than...
Sorry, but yes...it does. I don't really like your example but RP is about leaving OOC stuff out of it. If your only motivations for an action of your char are OOC reason they you are not roleplaying at all. (Though I think I got this one wrong..I know ;))

I agree with aiwe. But again, I judge based on storytelling. "I kill you because you are there" isn't a story. It's an action but there is no actual story there. Also, just using an imbalance is fine as long as there aren't a ton of back to back instances using that same excuse. Anyone that consistently imbalanced would be locked away at the very least not freely roaming the streets so that they can do it again.

I've worked with psychotics who kill because they have that desire to, with no reason or other rhyme.
Nobody denies this. Nobody would complain if that was the core of a RP once a year...but it is not...it's just overused..as killing in general is in PS. Definition of a baddie in PS: The person who kills women and children. Definition of a goody: The person who kills the baddie.

Yeah and here is a problem with good and bad. If goodie and baddie alike are slaughtering, it's pretty much the same coin different sides. I would be equally as wary of a "good" character that turns to killing as a first solution as I would a murdering "lunatic".

Aiwendil

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Re: The Gods Must Be Angry-DEBATE
« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2012, 03:42:46 pm »
And again, sorry, sometimes I forget you're German :/
Ahm...that either says something about the general quality of english writings in the net...or your are just try to be nice to me and lie ;) *giggles*

Not that being German is bad.
it's not good either. ;)

Agreed on all points, though, save the OOC Reasons one - I meant if a 10 year old RPed having a mental imbalance, sorry, that was just bad English on the native's part ;D
Yeah, thought so after reading it a second time. Still replied to it because I think it's  something very important for everyone to understand...so basically misused your "bad English" to get a point through. ;)

Cairn

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Re: The Gods Must Be Angry-DEBATE
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2012, 04:01:24 pm »
Quote
I agree with aiwe. But again, I judge based on storytelling. "I kill you because you are there" isn't a story. It's an action but there is no actual story there. Also, just using an imbalance is fine as long as there aren't a ton of back to back instances using that same excuse. Anyone that consistently imbalanced would be locked away at the very least not freely roaming the streets so that they can do it again.

Or maybe there is a backstory to it ^.^ childhood abuse, poor parenting decisions during pregnancy, I mean, the options are endless. (And out there)

In fact, for this particular story, it's easy to explain, if you'd like. Of course, others'd RP it differently. Curious, that....

And understandably towards your also points too, of course. They're all fair and correct, it's just the way I say em that makes people angry I suppose. English subtleties again there for ya Aiw. Hard to look past for anyone :/

And yes, of course there are grades of storytelling ability! It's the difference between Tolkien and 50 shades of grey woman right there. And arguably one story is better than the other one, of course - but it would be nice to think they all matter.

Mostly, I thank you, Illysia and Aiwendil both, for remaining open-minded despite your differing opinions on matters. Conclusively, I think we agree as it is - despite what some like and dislike :)

(As for the naming, it's not directed at either of you too either. It's just a general term, not even for players, but for something they fall prey to, myself and others included - not politically correct, sure, but certainly not incorrect either. Just something to be wary of for dirty blue collars like myself.)
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Candy

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Re: The Gods Must Be Angry-DEBATE
« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2012, 04:11:18 pm »
1.) I made this plot to gather RPers together. Not for the sake of fluffing my own pride or senseless killings, but to break a few molds and rally the people who don't get to play with others that often.
*Semantics: I take full responsibility for people liking and disliking it, as it is my doing. Rail it on me, ladies and gents.

Breaking molds clique-wise is always good, but frankly a serial killer plot looks like every other plot in PS, except this one is on a bigger scale. It doesn't appear to be breaking any molds on the surface; if I hadn't read this thread or didn't know Cairn I'd probably think "Oh, just another power-fantasy-playing teenage boy who wants to kill f*in' everything". Which leads to...

Quote
2.) There needs to be more of this type of plot! Not the killings, but just...bigger ones that more people get into!

This. I'm as guilty of sitting back and doing nothing when nothing is going on as the next person. It's because I have a difficult time thinking of a plot that a) people would be interested in without deaths or kidnappings involved, and b) wouldn't risk being turned into that by others too much. Frankly I'm better at giving one character a backstory with some motivation to hang around and seek out others - for example, when I was new, I had Monala looking for signs of a missing friend. Another character of mine is an old guy that's looking for a wife to share his last days with (albeit in the rather unorthodox way of running around in nothing but a codpiece and feathers and hitting on every adult female in sight). I'm also not as fond of running 'events'; I'd rather let the RP occur naturally without making people think there may be some reward in it for them, be it an item, trias, or their name mentioned in an RP thread in the forums.


Quote
The only thing that I will ever hold offense against is:

RP with no reason at all/trolling/killing because you /want/ to OOCly.

I experienced this not long ago. Someone (I won't name names) sent me a tell asking for RP and then had their character kill mine (they didn't specify OOC that it'd be violent). No point, no further direct communication with me after that session, they just wanted some violence. I probably shouldn't have agreed to it as they were creeping me out with their OOC tells (nothing bannable or particularly inappropriate, just...creepy).

This is partially why people are speaking against big, "forceful" plots involving hard to ignore bodies dumped everywhere. I don't mind it, but allow me to play devil's advocate and draw some parallels here:

First off, in the case of the serial killer, it'd be exceedingly difficult to get through town unspotted with a corpse on your person. Secondly, a lack of GM guards or, as I recently heard of, deputized player characters, shouldn't mean the NPCs are completely inactive. People doing this seem to encourage other players to treat the NPCs the same way, and then you get Hydlaa becoming the Compton of Yliakum. This has been a problem since I started playing in 2008 and most likely well before that, too.

The killing I spoke of took place right in front of William. I still went along with it because I was trying to figure out who the player was and because I was bored and had wanted to RP, but really, I think the banker would have probably done something. The player probably should have at least tried to get my character to the houses by the Temple where there are plenty of hiding spots (though it'd have been difficult for him to do as he was acting creepy IC as well). It could've led to a chase scene, which would have at least been more fun for me, the victim's player. Treating silent inactive NPCs as just that can be construed as metagaming, which can and will make people think "bad RP", regardless of whether you want people to say it out loud.

It's not fun to just have your character swooped down upon with a dagger every five minutes and, if you prefer playing realistically, wandering and recovering from the wounds they sustained in the fight that didn't kill them in the Death Realm (particularly since few people enjoy staying there for long. It is kind of a boring area without many places to inspire RP, really, but that's another can of worms). Some also don't find it all that fun to find a truly dead corpse and bloody writing every five feet in the city that acts as the RP hub of the game.

I'm not saying the RP faux-pas of ignoring NPCs is the sole reason people will be annoyed by these, it's just one of them. There are more like what's already been mentioned - real life is more than violent enough and people play to escape it, killing plots are overdone, et cetrea. The incident I took part in was stupid all around, and I feel stupid for having participated in it now, given it's the sort of RP I tend to avoid for the most part. Fight scenes are really obnoxious to me, especially with one person seemingly intent on 'winning'. I was thoroughly annoyed with the player, who just seemed to want to fulfil that power fantasy, throughout the RP. It's not much of a stretch to see how people might feel that way about true death killers (whose plots crop up every few months it seems).

(EDIT: You people post too freakin' fast! I had to try to post this three times and got the "waaaaait, there's x new posts now!" message interrupting me  ;D)
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Cairn

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Re: The Gods Must Be Angry-DEBATE
« Reply #36 on: July 26, 2012, 04:24:20 pm »
Ooh, semantics >.>
I don't like getting into those, so I'll just agree with ya Candy :p (because you are right)

Anyways, I wash my hands of this thread for the most part. It boils down to things that I don't want to have to dig into with a needle and microscope to please everybody, because that wears on me too much and it just creates tension. Simply put, I'll just say I am aware of the settings and how to wrap around them, as are all of you lovely RPers, of which I am glad for.
Things are just not as they appear is all I can leave you with, honestly. This particular portion of the RP did what I wanted it to, so I can move on to the goals. Killing massly without intent has never been part of 'the plan', or senseless evil. I apologize that I have to explain that, but it might clear the air I suppose >.>

Intrigue and mystery, let it pleasure you!
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 04:26:37 pm by Cairn »
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Candy

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Re: The Gods Must Be Angry-DEBATE
« Reply #37 on: July 26, 2012, 04:26:52 pm »
Well, going back to my real stance on this, I'm looking forward to Chays assisting his guildmate in trying to solve the murders (and being kicked in the butt to do something completely unrelated IC, too ;) ).
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Illysia

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Re: The Gods Must Be Angry-DEBATE
« Reply #38 on: July 26, 2012, 04:30:35 pm »
At this point, I don't think the issue is actually getting you to change the RP Cairn. But this really is the first time there has been a civil forum for this discussion. The issue has been raised 50 million times but it always devolved into something mucky before anyone could actually explain what they were concerned about.

Or maybe there is a backstory to it ^.^ childhood abuse, poor parenting decisions during pregnancy, I mean, the options are endless. (And out there)
...

And yes, of course there are grades of storytelling ability! It's the difference between Tolkien and 50 shades of grey woman right there. And arguably one story is better than the other one, of course - but it would be nice to think they all matter.

That kind of RP is kinda like writing a paper. Certain rules can be bent if you have the skill, but it is a rare few that attempt it that actually have the skill for it. It's like me discouraging new RPers from playing baddie characters. Few that are new have the storytelling ability to pull off a baddie character that isn't facepalm worthy. It's not that you can't get there eventually, but no, not every attempt gives a good result.

That's something else from the past. even if you were counted as a "good RPer" there was always the expectation that you would keep improving. We never assumed that anyone was at the top of the game and we always criticized each other with the goal of helping each other expand their skill in telling stories.

However, I do think we agree on the broad scale, it's the details that we quibble over. ;)

First off, in the case of the serial killer, it'd be exceedingly difficult to get through town unspotted with a corpse on your person. Secondly, a lack of GM guards or, as I recently heard of, deputized player characters, shouldn't mean the NPCs are completely inactive. People doing this seem to encourage other players to treat the NPCs the same way, and then you get Hydlaa becoming the Compton of Yliakum. This has been a problem since I started playing in 2008 and most likely well before that, too.

The killing I spoke of took place right in front of William. I still went along with it because I was trying to figure out who the player was and because I was bored and had wanted to RP, but really, I think the banker would have probably done something. The player probably should have at least tried to get my character to the houses by the Temple where there are plenty of hiding spots (though it'd have been difficult for him to do as he was acting creepy IC as well). It could've led to a chase scene, which would have at least been more fun for me, the victim's player. Treating silent inactive NPCs as just that can be construed as metagaming, which can and will make people think "bad RP", regardless of whether you want people to say it out loud.

It's not fun to just have your character swooped down upon with a dagger every five minutes and, if you prefer playing realistically, wandering and recovering from the wounds they sustained in the fight that didn't kill them in the Death Realm (particularly since few people enjoy staying there for long. It is kind of a boring area without many places to inspire RP, really, but that's another can of worms). Some also don't find it all that fun to find a truly dead corpse and bloody writing every five feet in the city that acts as the RP hub of the game.

I'm not saying the RP faux-pas of ignoring NPCs is the sole reason people will be annoyed by these, it's just one of them. There are more like what's already been mentioned - real life is more than violent enough and people play to escape it, killing plots are overdone, et cetrea. The incident I took part in was stupid all around, and I feel stupid for having participated in it now, given it's the sort of RP I tend to avoid for the most part. Fight scenes are really obnoxious to me, especially with one person seemingly intent on 'winning'. I was thoroughly annoyed with the player, who just seemed to want to fulfil that power fantasy, throughout the RP. It's not much of a stretch to see how people might feel that way about true death killers (whose plots crop up every few months it seems).

(EDIT: You people post too freakin' fast! I had to try to post this three times and got the "waaaaait, there's x new posts now!" message interrupting me  ;D)

Yeah, one issue that you know there is no way you could actually pull off such highly visible murders in quick succession. Then there is the issue where I hate always being in danger of being killed by whoever has killing fantasies at that instant. Maybe I want to be able to walk through the city for once. But for me it's the storytelling quality that always irks me and makes me want to leave. I can't tell a story if my character is always in hiding and due to settings, there is no reason for my character be back and forth out of the DR constantly.

And on the posting too fast thing... join the club. :p

Tessra

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Re: The Gods Must Be Angry-DEBATE
« Reply #39 on: July 26, 2012, 07:08:59 pm »
For the most part, I'm going to leave my opinions of certain things out, simply because I know I won't be able to voice them as politely as I should, but there are a few things I would like to say.

Threads like this in the past have often been little more than an excuse for players to veil criticism behind a thin veneer of "constructive criticism" and they irk me.  Whether a player is a newer player, or an older player, or an ex-player returning, any effort to produce a large scale RP for others to interact in should be appreciated, not slandered and nitpicked.  If someone finds an idea to be too farfetched, too violent, too boring, it will do more good to the community and the individual players to make constructive suggestions as to ways that it might be improved upon than it will to say that it's simply a disliked genre and thus not worthy of participation.  Too often players come here and tear other players and their ideas to shreds, simply because of personal preference.  I find that both inconsiderate and arrogant.  It's one thing to think back fondly on past RPs, creative lines and interactions and entirely another to log in with the mindset that anything even remotely resembling unpleasant experiences from the past will automatically be unpleasant.  It takes just as much RP skill to develop an event now as it did in the past, perhaps even a bit more because there isn't such a wealth of talented RPers to choose from. 

The quality of RP in this game will not improve as a result of pickier players actively avoiding the major plots or threads of complaints on the forum.  I would offer the suggestion, instead of avoiding an event, linger on the edges of it, interact with one or two characters you haven't already met, and build new IC and OOC connections.   
Also, it's more credible to others if you grow in power slowly over time.  First kill rats, then noobs, then klyros, and eventually work your way up to more powerful creatures ~ Miomai

Illysia

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Re: The Gods Must Be Angry-DEBATE
« Reply #40 on: July 26, 2012, 07:43:15 pm »
Ok, while I understand where this is coming from, here is something that irks me. When did critique become evil? People trying to give constructive criticism can still be taken the wrong way, so what do you do then to give criticism? And why is it more righteous to rip someone to shreds for trying to help than it is to rip them to shreds while trying help? Often counter arguments come off as "My RP is the greatest already so there is absolutely nothing of value you can tell me."  I guarantee you, it doesn't matter how nicely you try and help. I've suggested extra nicely and been ripped to shreds for saying anything at all. How is that less arrogant or inconsiderate? In the past, we used to get ripped to shreds(and I do mean ripped to shreds people could be ruthless), take the criticism, and either make an adjustment or take the fuss that came with ignoring it. Not that I'm endorsing that way, but now, I find people take even the slightest, mildest comment as a personal attack, again, no matter how nice or well intentioned the suggestion is.

Also, slandering usually came into the picture between players. Most of the time, people couldn't actually talk about the RP for ripping into each other in personal attacks. There was alway the issue of once someone's ego was pricked, then the war began. However, where it concerns RPs, what about when it exactly mirrored past unpleasant experience? A lot of the reminiscing about old days comes from having logged on, directly running into the very thing that caused an exit before, and then getting even more entrenched in the thinking that the old days were better.

Further, I find that often, people that complain about players being mean or closed minded are guilty of the very thing they criticize the complainers for. They just don't see that they are doing the same thing but from a different perspective. They also seem to not see how they are needlessly provoking, belittling, insulting, ect and contributing to the problem. It really doesn't matter how long or how little you have been playing, an insult is still and insult and people can be needlessly attacked. Often complicating the matter, newer players seem to go right into an argument assuming that the older player has nothing of value to say, because that was the past and none of that is valid now, which typically sets the stage for a future unnecessary confrontation. Close mindedness does not come with a measure in relation to how much time the person has played.

However, all of that aside, I can see keeping one's opinion to themselves, but why should one force themselves to participate in a RP they don't find fun? That's kinda where the breakdown happens between schools of RP. If someone is having fun they aren't very likely to complain. So, where I can see avoiding confrontation by not saying something that can be taken the wrong way, why would someone struggle just to hang on to the periphery of something they inherently don't find fun? For instance, I do not find dealing with who has died, who might die, or came back from the dead, who is maimed, ect. entertaining. There is nothing even remotely appealing about it for me. I may tolerate it a bit if it is a reasonable but very short part (from the perspective of my involvement) of the RP, but it will never be fun to me. I have no reason to hang on the periphery.

Tessra

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Re: The Gods Must Be Angry-DEBATE
« Reply #41 on: July 26, 2012, 10:11:57 pm »
Ok, while I understand where this is coming from, here is something that irks me. When did critique become evil? People trying to give constructive criticism can still be taken the wrong way, so what do you do then to give criticism? And why is it more righteous to rip someone to shreds for trying to help than it is to rip them to shreds while trying help?

That, m'dear, is the difference.  When you are trying to help someone, you don't rip them to shreds.  Critique and constructive criticism are not synonymous with complaints.
Also, it's more credible to others if you grow in power slowly over time.  First kill rats, then noobs, then klyros, and eventually work your way up to more powerful creatures ~ Miomai

Indygo

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Re: The Gods Must Be Angry-DEBATE
« Reply #42 on: July 26, 2012, 10:12:40 pm »
I really don't believe limitations or style should be imposed on anyone with very few exceptions. For example: a looong time ago the issue of RP sex came up.  This was a touchy subject for some.  The devs deemed this is not the place for it and I agreed, but some did not.  There was a player the other day that suggested that killing of children is crossing the line in an RP.  I don't share the same view but I am sure there are people on both sides that have strong feelings about it.  What does it amount to?  In my opinion (and it is just that, an opinion) anything R rated and below that is not offensive to the race, religion, sexual preference or disability and the like of players is fair game.  If it is not openly and purposely offensive it should not be interrupted.

I think this should be a place of free thought that fosters creative scenarios that our characters will react to accordingly.  I would also say that large scale RP is only one venue for characters to interact.  The smaller character interactions can have just as much impact on characters especially ones new to the world.  I like to "adopt" a new comer and expose them to RP.  I have done this many times over the years and Indygo has developed many strong reltionships because of it.  Giving them small tasks to help them acquire items such as swords or armor and including them in plots that may be developing at the time to help acclimate them to the world.  For me it brings great enjoyment but for others it could be quite boring and frustrating.  I would implore others to do the same from time to time (not suggesting I am the only one that does this).

As far as the larger RPs having a trickle down impact, I could not agree more.  However there should be some boudaries in certain cases.  I would like to use the dwarven war against dwarvesbane for an example.  The war against the dwarves was the due to a hate of them by Drahlian.  The lead up to the war, the conflict and the aftermath spun off many many story lines.  Those that supported the dwarves, the friends of those involved, the relationships that came of it and on and on...  But war was not allowed within the walls of Hydlaa among a few other safe places as to not disturb others and go against the settings of the guards maintaining order.  If people wanted to witness the fighting they could do so but were not forced to dodge arrows while trying to sell weapons in the plaza or having a drink at Kada's.  This was one of the most successful RP stories I have seen in all the time I have been in this game.  It was a violent hateful plot but everyone involved knew the boundaries and followed them for the most part and the ones that didnt follow were quickly corrected.  The ones that did not want to fight weren't forced into the violence but could interact in other ways be it support or opposition to the fighting.

I think the pretense that violent or evil plots are bad RP is inaccurate.  RP is what you make it.  But I do think for the respect of the characters that do not want to be witness to the violence or the evil and the like there should be some boundaries.  I have always felt that Kada's should be a safe zone from zombies, poison, vampires, dragons, fist fights etc.  I think most other heavily used places should be excluded such as harnquist's but its my opinion.  The land is vast there are plenty of places to play out these types of things without shoving them in the face of captives trying to engage in their own form of RP.  I think most of us would agree that is fair.  I thnk above all we should be concious of the others trying to have some fun without stepping on toes.  There is nothing more frustrating as having a little dice game in the corner downstairs at Kada's just to have a bunch of craziness bust in the door and intrude on what others are doing.  The only limit I would put on RP is to not force it on others in such a way.

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tman

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Re: The Gods Must Be Angry-DEBATE
« Reply #43 on: July 26, 2012, 11:23:48 pm »
In my opinion (and it is just that, an opinion) anything R rated and below that is not offensive to the race, religion, sexual preference or disability and the like of players is fair game.  If it is not openly and purposely offensive it should not be interrupted.

I just want to point out that in the US, killing children isn't allowed even in rated M (17+) video games.  That's why in unmodded versions of games like Skyrim and Fallout the children are invincible. 

And if I remember correctly, PlaneShift content is supposed to be PG-13 level.
You can't teach a pig to sing.  It'll never work, and you'll annoy the pig.

Illysia

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Re: The Gods Must Be Angry-DEBATE
« Reply #44 on: July 27, 2012, 12:10:45 am »
That, m'dear, is the difference.  When you are trying to help someone, you don't rip them to shreds.  Critique and constructive criticism are not synonymous with complaints.

True but that's not the point I'm making. I'm addressing the double standard. Nobody condemns the person that received nice criticism but responded with insults and ripping the other person to shreds. It's always one sided. It always boils down to "How dare you say something!" Nobody receives praise all the time, but when someone speaks up, however nicely, they get automatically tarred with a negative brush and shouted down. That's not in the least bit nice and has also caused just as much trouble whether it is ever called out or not. I think we should be nice when giving criticism or making suggestions, but people shouldn't lecture on being nice if they aren't going to hold the standard up equally. It's useless if it is not equal.

Also, that doesn't address my earlier question about hanging on the periphery.

In my opinion (and it is just that, an opinion) anything R rated and below that is not offensive to the race, religion, sexual preference or disability and the like of players is fair game.  If it is not openly and purposely offensive it should not be interrupted.

I just want to point out that in the US, killing children isn't allowed even in rated M (17+) video games.  That's why in unmodded versions of games like Skyrim and Fallout the children are invincible. 

And if I remember correctly, PlaneShift content is supposed to be PG-13 level.

Yeah I agree with that player and tman... That really is entirely too far and it is outside of PS's range. I'm really of the opinion that children should be off limits, you can make your point without going there.

Also, sorry Indy but I have to put this out there. No one that complained has said that "evil" RP is bad RP however, now that it is said, here comes the trouble. This always sets the stage for someone attributing that comment to a complainer, setting up a straw argument, then crusading against the complainers simply because they couldn't be bothered to actually pay attention to the actual complaints. Which I might add is dismissing the person trying to share a perspective which is not showing the consideration that that same person would probably expect to get in return. It also means there is no chance that a reasonable compromise can be reached since there are already closed ears at that point.

Making a hasty assumption of what was said without reading it with the intent of understanding or just restating what was said in a hasty way that can become a point of contention has created so many problems since people will often skip the actual complaint and read the hasty approximation instead. Skimming and using the argument from the post of someone on the other side of the debate often sets up trouble when people get their righteous ire going about something that wasn't even said by the people with complaints. It causes unnecessary friction because each successive person takes it farther and farther from the actual complaint. Then, it often derails into bickering as the people complaining spend even more time restating what they actually said while the people not actually paying attention, keep not paying attention, and and get self righteous in their defense against something that came from a either a different group or something that was never even complained about.