The Gods Must Be Angry-DEBATE

[Eonwind]

For my context, the RP is for the purpose of telling the story of Yliakum even more so than getting people to interact. We create a dynamic and compelling world even if not everyone directly interacts with each other. It's like reading a book to me. But each little story needs to be coherent to tell a consistent story across the world, so everyone needs a similar standard to work off of to tie everything together.

I don't agree with the need to have RPing standards since it's unfair to force a method onto someone. What if the devs or GMs would dictate RP standards? I think the players would rightly complain about that. The players should also avoid dictating the standards to other players for the same reasons.

Speaking about the RPing contents (which is a totally different matter) I think we should avoid playing specific RP unless all the players involved OCCly agree and the play is done in a reserved in game place (where people unwilling to deal with such contents are not forced to have them in the main chat).
An example of such contents may be:
- mature and sexual contents;
- child murders;
- any contents you wouldn't let you little sister/brother/son to deal with.

[Indygo]

Also, sorry Indy but I have to put this out there. No one that complained has said that "evil" RP is bad RP however, now that it is said, here comes the trouble. This always sets the stage for someone attributing that comment to a complainer, setting up a straw argument, then crusading against the complainers simply because they couldn't be bothered to actually pay attention to the actual complaints.

What I was referring to when I said that is this:

Last but not least...the endless killing and violence in PS.
Actually I don't have much to say there. All examples I have seen of this in PS are very poorly done and plain boring. In most cases it's just violence for the fun of it. But from the looks of it that's what players want so all my (and others) efforts in the past to make baddies more realistic seem to have failed. But not really a big deal to ignore it in game

So I will redact my above to say:
I think the pretense that violent or evil plots is poor RP is inaccurate.

I have read every word of every comment and am not making hasty assumptions.  I agree this type of RP seems to be over done, but I would also agree historically it is very popular.  The question is what can we do as players that obviously have a love for role play do to change the culture outside of beating the hell out of it on the forums?  I see a lot of discussion here about what not to do but not many solutions.  I guess thats where I am coming from. 

As far as the child killing comment, I would never say I am a moral authority.  Just making the point that I can do with or without it but at what point do we try to put limits on what we can and cannot do?  I would say that hunger games seemed to do pretty well with that plot...

[Eonwind]

As far as the child killing comment, I would never say I am a moral authority.  Just making the point that I can do with or without it but at what point do we try to put limits on what we can and cannot do?  I would say that hunger games seemed to do pretty well with that plot...

Indygo we don't need moral authorities we just need common sense. Hunger games is a book you can decide to read or not to read if you don't like the topic. When something gets printed in your main chat I would say it's to late to avoid it, that's why I think it's common sense to play more mature contents in places (in-game) where people doesn't happen to hear that if they don't want to and to be sure the player we are playing with those scenes are fine with them (OOCly).

[Illysia]

I don't agree with the need to have RPing standards since it's unfair to force a method onto someone. What if the devs or GMs would dictate RP standards? I think the players would rightly complain about that. The players should also avoid dictating the standards to other players for the same reasons.

Method is not the issue with a standard. All settings do is create a standard that everyone can build off of. So that if someone want to RP a Vulcan running through PS nerve pinching everyone in sight, there is a common baseline that says they don't even exists. Not killing someone without getting their consent is a standard, it helps maintain the peace between players by requiring a certain amount of courtesy. Standards are everywhere, they are not some bad force of creativity stiffing, its a means for giving a common ground to prevent chaos. PS just has too many competing standards right now to be of use, and settings is neither complete enough nor coherent enough to provide the unifying element on its own.

Not to mention, I know the general approach works as that was the very point I made back in this post.

What I was referring to when I said that is this:

Last but not least...the endless killing and violence in PS.
Actually I don't have much to say there. All examples I have seen of this in PS are very poorly done and plain boring. In most cases it's just violence for the fun of it. But from the looks of it that's what players want so all my (and others) efforts in the past to make baddies more realistic seem to have failed. But not really a big deal to ignore it in game

So I will redact my above to say:
I think the pretense that violent or evil plots is poor RP is inaccurate.

Aiwendil was a part of the Outlaws guild that killed people Indy, that is a hasty approximation of what he said. I know for a fact he doesn't have a problem with those RPs. As he said in that quote, the "examples in PS" he's been seeing are poor not that every evil RP ever is poor. And "His and other efforts" to make baddies less facepalm worthy have failed... You have to be a baddie doing baddie things for that sentence to make sense.

[Cairn]

Just to pop my head in and note, that were one to dig deeper and read the description, the child wasn't killed.

Any-wheys....

[Illysia]

I would still feel better to stay away from it even looking like a child was killed.

[Cairn]

Of course. Within the first 5 minutes of ME3, a child is implied to be murdered - just out of curiosity, where do you all stand on that, also? Perhaps not in regard to this situation, per se, but as the video game rules in general.

[Indygo]

*Grumbles* This is why I dont get involved in these conversations...

Look, dont be distracted by the dead children comment.  You are missing the point.  I am not advocating for baby killing.  What I am saying is we start saying "this shouldn't be allowed and that shouldn't be allowed" where does it end.  Let me give you an example: Indygo likes to play gambling games in Kada's.  It can be intrusive due to dice rolling frequently.  I would say it is an appropriate venue for him to do this, however there are some people that may have an OOC moral opposition to it.  Should that not be allowed?  I could give other examples as well but I will spare you the monotony.

Please don't miss my point by the content of the comment.

[Illysia]

I'm not sure what the first 5 mins of ME3 actually entails but, it's one thing if it is not targeted at the child. If you blow a whole planet up, chances are you have killed a child. Not good, but it's not as disturbing because it isn't targeted at children specifically. You just really can't help but to kill a child in that context. However, something that is killing a child and is definitely targeted at the child, say games where you can kill the children NPCs individually, that is really too much. 

One, children should be protected and the world is screwed up enough without having to toss in targeting children. Two, there already seems to be an uptick of violence against children in RL which is disturbing and I really don't think it has a place also in realities that we have full control over. It's just one of those preserving our humanity issues that I think is important. There are any number of creative ways to show a character is a complete monster, that are still disturbing, but are at least not preying on the extreme vulnerability of children. I might also add that this border doesn't only affect killing children but that is a different discussion entirely.

What I am saying is we start saying "this shouldn't be allowed and that shouldn't be allowed" where does it end. 

That's what the rough consensus is for Indy... the exact point of it. Finding a reasonable and comfortable border for everyone. The problem is people putting the brakes on the standard thing's progress due to individuals insisting on only getting their way. That also includes people that won't allow it to go forward due to the fact that they aren't willing to risk giving up something so that others can be accommodated. Kinda can't compromise without being at least open to the possibility that you might have to make a slight adjustment.

But PS is way to big as it is, I guarantee you that even if you do have to move, there is somewhere for people to go. Not so much that I think there is an issue with dice in the tavern but really, if you had to move to the place where Loren Chama hangs out by the plaza, it wouldn't be such a great burden to allow other people a chance to be comfortable as well. That being said, I doubt most people will complain about reasonable stuff like gambling in the tavern.

I might also stick out that you agree to be limited every time you play a game. Doesn't matter if it is a space game that doesn't let you go planet side, a medieval fantasy game that doesn't let you go into space/around the entire world/*cough* to the surface, or a horror game that never lets yo be completely safe at some point, a timed game that doesn't let you sit take time and plan your next move, etc... it goes on an on. It's just a wee bit of paranoia that leads to the typical cry of "but someone might stop me from doing something that is not really that unreasonable." Have a little faith in your fellow player that they can see where most common sense boundaries will lie. Especially since the whole process is rarely allowed to even get that far.

[Cairn]

That actually illustrates several points really well, thank you Illysia!

The main one, as you mentioned, being 'disturbing' and the level of it. Culturally, America (And other westernized cultures) are disturbed easily by some things, and very jaded towards others. This is different in other parts of the world, where our views on things would be horrifying to these other people.

Now as far as the uptick in violence, yes, I completely agree. That illustrates the cultural trend that's going on also. However, there's also stricter measures being put in place, ensuring that said crimes do not go unpunished. This, in turn, will offset the violence and create a steady minimum (is the hope).

Now, for the ME3 illustration, that simply served to highlight the whole thing. Of course the child is graphically illustrated as a key target during an "alien attack", one that is aimed to wipe out humanity, in a "Senseless, violent, and brutal" attack. However, ME3 is also lauded as a masterpiece of video gaming, both in storytelling, heart, and scope (that is another topic, however. Sorry for the rabbit trail.) The main point of this paragraph is that it can be a key 'tear jerker', or heartfelt moment. Of course, doubtless, there were players of ME3 that hated that inclusion, and it made them queezy. Perhaps those in other cultures didn't mind, or hated it even more. Culture =/= Opinion

Lastly, which again is a very....sidesbased topic, is that which Indygo and Illysia bring up so well. That of "Where does it start? Where does it stop?".

In short, PlaneShift is meant to be a player-controlled world within the settings, with minimal GM interaction. Optimally, this means a heightened realism (with a pg-13 setting). However, without fail there will always rise the issue of 'action being forced upon people'. Sad but true.

In 'RL', let's say (don't take out of context, of course), we as humans have action forced upon us at every turn.

In PS, we do not wish this to happen at times. We claim to want our characters to evolve due to outside influence, but we sometimes don't live up to that claim.

The reason boils down to personal preference, which is absolutely ok. We can argue moral ground and other points for as long as the sun'll hang in the sky, but that's honestly what it comes down to. Semantics include settings, ps dev requests, etc., but preference will always be king.

That being said, I respect everyone's preferences. The main thing to getting along in PS will be that ability, respecting others preferences. That means, as Tessra posted earlier, giving and taking in equal amount. There'll be things you don't like, and things others don't like. Always will be.

Illysia makes an excellent point when she says to have faith in your fellow player. Always assume the best, and these debates may never happen!

As always, I commend those with open minds who have posted here, which is everyone. Thanks for your time, and your willingness to dance around words. It's great seeing this civil of a discussion on such sensitive topics.

[Eonwind]

Method is not the issue with a standard. All settings do is create a standard that everyone can build off of. So that if someone want to RP a Vulcan running through PS nerve pinching everyone in sight, there is a common baseline that says they don't even exists. Not killing someone without getting their consent is a standard, it helps maintain the peace between players by requiring a certain amount of courtesy. Standards are everywhere, they are not some bad force of creativity stiffing, its a means for giving a common ground to prevent chaos. PS just has too many competing standards right now to be of use, and settings is neither complete enough nor coherent enough to provide the unifying element on its own.

Not killing someone without getting their consent is NOT roleplay a standard, it is a engine or rules standard since you can by no means challenge an unwilling player.
The settings can be seen as a RP standardization but I'm afraid you are completely missing my point since I was speaking about this king of unnecessary standards:

I'm not sure what everyone else's impression was, but my impression of the standard was that you:

1. Never preplan. It's considered bad form
2. Create a character that is distinct in behavior. You can have 20 mages if you still tell them apart by how they act. Same for barflys...
3. Don't godmod. It's rude.
4. Don't do anything that wouldn't make sense in the context of the RPs going on around you. You are a section of the story, not the story.
5. If you see a character, that you don't recognize, that seems to follow this standard, chances are, it's just the alt of someone you already know of or RP with.

Many of the above standards are common sense and fair but not really necessary.

*Grumbles* This is why I dont get involved in these conversations...
Let me give you an example: Indygo likes to play gambling games in Kada's.  It can be intrusive due to dice rolling frequently.  I would say it is an appropriate venue for him to do this, however there are some people that may have an OOC moral opposition to it.  Should that not be allowed?

Indygo I think we must let ourselves to be guided by common sense. Rules and laws draw lines between what is legit and what's not and I think we don't really want rules to tell us what to RP or not to RP. In the specific case RP gambling is perfectly legit.

[Illysia]

I'm actually pretty ok with cutting back across the board if it allows other people to play comfortably. For instance, many Europeans complain about Americans complaining about sex but will allow all kinds of horrible violence. I'm all for curtailing both and limiting what gets out into main in public places.

Also, on the tear jerker thing, I personally don't like people manipulating my feelings, but that is a personal preference. I hate it even when Disney does it. I want to come to my own conclusion on what to feel without a ton of "leading" my reaction. It's one thing if it is just a story it's another if it essentially godmodding your feelings like Disney does. If you doubt me, see how many Disney movies you can watch without there being a "tear jerker" moment to create sympathy.

Also, I never got the impression that a player created world completely leaves out the possibility of having boundaries. Or letting GMs be a part, they are players too actually. For instance, there was a bout of RPs that not only involved rape but not everyone involved was completely ok with how it was going down. If people had been of the opinion that had some say in where the boundaries were and that they we're in no way forced to bend their characters out of character to accommodate the RP, I think that whole thing would have gone down differently. Although, in my opinion, there is absolutely no reason to go there at all. You can't police what people do in group or tell but especially once it starts spilling outside of those areas I think it shouldn't happen.

Not killing someone without getting their consent is NOT roleplay a standard, it is a engine or rules standard since you can by no means challenge an unwilling player.

Camp banished... the reason for RP standards: it does little good to rely only on the engine to determine what you can and can't do. That's the point of RP.

The settings can be seen as a RP standardization but I'm afraid you are completely missing my point since I was speaking about this king of unnecessary standards:

I'm not sure what everyone else's impression was, but my impression of the standard was that you:

1. Never preplan. It's considered bad form
2. Create a character that is distinct in behavior. You can have 20 mages if you still tell them apart by how they act. Same for barflys...
3. Don't godmod. It's rude.
4. Don't do anything that wouldn't make sense in the context of the RPs going on around you. You are a section of the story, not the story.
5. If you see a character, that you don't recognize, that seems to follow this standard, chances are, it's just the alt of someone you already know of or RP with.

Many of the above standards are common sense and fair but not really necessary.

There should be enough spoofs, quotes, ect poking at how uncommon common sense is... especially on the internet. So I won't bother going into how necessary it is to state common sense stuff. This forum should be a cautionary tale about such things in it's own right. And I'm just curious, what is actually wrong with agreeing to do those things? Where is it a great limit on freedom to say we have these boundaries? It's only a problem if you intend to break them.

[Cairn]

I think what Eon meant is it's "Good RP practice to ask someone if they want to die or not, RP based", but you can't actually force somebody to die. That's game-engine based. Sure, you can jump on somebody and play out you're stabbing them with a knife, but who's to say they won't ignore you?

Just good RP practice, I think :p

And as far as avoiding disney/tear jerk/forced emotions, etc., that's again just preference

As far as your 'letting others play comfortably' :/

You can't please both sides ('both sides' not a literal term, actually meaning everyone here, sorry). The best thing is to not cater (to a point, there are already rules established), and let the players choose what to do. If a 10 year old kid came on and his momma told us not to let anything bad happen, I would't cut back across the board to please him. Same with anyone else. I respect and like you, but I won't cut back across the board to please you. I'll let you deal with it as a grown adult would, which means that:

despite outwards influences, you'll go on with your life.

despite things you can't control, you'll persevere

Yeah, sure, I'll be nice about it, but if I were to cut back, it'd be no different than you controlling my RP because of a statute of your dislikes. Sure, I can cater to them to a point, but you can cater to mine also! Give/Take.

Despite outward influences on my life, I'll go on

despite things I can't control, I'll persevere.

* Cairn am adult. I'll make do

P.S.
People get all sorts of poopoo about lack of control in other games too, don't sweat. Being out of control is a very uncomfortable feeling in any situation. It also helps us realize our humanity, and creates a new outlook on life, I think. Not even my so-presumed "serial killer" has any semblance of control. It's his motive to gain it, sure, but who's to say someone won't end him? He can't stop that. A lot of people live and die trying to gain control over every aspect of their lives, why can't PS characters do that too? (personal opinion, gut as you please)

[Illysia]

I suppose I can understand it, I just don't agree. I'm not so insistent on having my way that I'm going to do "my RP" around others no matter what. That's why even though I preferred to keep commotion in the Stonehead down, I let it be used as a makeshift hospital when people were injured in another more violent RP. Most of the time I had shut down the start of any major upheaval before it got started. However, that time it was a concession to other people and their playing style. And it wasn't too far outside the range of what I could deal with.

But overall, that is why I am in Amdeneir. The only way I can accommodate the fact that people want constant killing and brutal killings is to leave the area. I'm no longer interesting in helping people to come to a different way of handling it by fussing at them. Everyone can ultimately do what they want if they aren't willing to come to a compromise. I make explanations for those that it might help to at least understand the perspective and otherwise I move on. I've wasted enough effort trying to change things in this game. It's never worked for me in the past.

Side note:

From Merriam Webster Dictionary
Standard: : something established by authority, custom, or general consent as a model or example

Not totalitarian rule, not set in stone. In the past it was set by custom, but if people are still so paranoid that the mind police will come and lock them away for ever and ever if they just try to come to a simple consensus then oh well. I really don't have the energy to fight that battle anymore.

[Aiwendil]

Last but not least...the endless killing and violence in PS.
Actually I don't have much to say there. All examples I have seen of this in PS are very poorly done and plain boring. In most cases it's just violence for the fun of it. But from the looks of it that's what players want so all my (and others) efforts in the past to make baddies more realistic seem to have failed. But not really a big deal to ignore it in game

So I will redact my above to say:
I think the pretense that violent or evil plots is poor RP is inaccurate.

As I never said anything like that I take Indygo's statement in general pointing out that evil plots are not bad RP what I hope we all agree on.

I don't agree with the need to have RPing standards since it's unfair to force a method onto someone. What if the devs or GMs would dictate RP standards? I think the players would rightly complain about that. The players should also avoid dictating the standards to other players for the same reasons.

Ahm...GMs/the PS team dictates the standard already to some extend...Erotic/Sexual RP is forbidden.

I just want to point out that in the US, killing children isn't allowed even in rated M (17+) video games.  That's why in unmodded versions of games like Skyrim and Fallout the children are invincible. 

Hunger games is a book you can decide to read or not to read if you don't like the topic. When something gets printed in your main chat I would say it's to late to avoid it, that's why I think it's common sense to play more mature contents in places (in-game) where people doesn't happen to hear that if they don't want to and to be sure the player we are playing with those scenes are fine with them (OOCly).

This! If someone wants to do violent RPs there is nothing wrong with it as long as all involved agree. My problem starts as soon as people are exposed to it who didn't agree. So if you want to kill/torture during RPs do it in group, don't place any books with violent descriptions at random locations (Or if you need for the RP place books that only contain an OOC note like "This is for the xxx RP. This RP contains some violence so if you want to read what it is about visit <some-web-page-with-the-actual-content>."), restrain yourself from posting the violent scenes in the forum and most important, make sure that everyone involved is an adult.

Not killing someone without getting their consent is NOT roleplay a standard, it is a engine or rules standard since you can by no means challenge an unwilling player.

Ahm, wasn't this about RPs? Last I checked there weren't any mechanics that prevent someone from killing anyone else in a RP. Not that don't agree with you that it's a standard to not do it without consent. I just mean it's often not possible to transfer the game-mechanic limitations to RPs.

I'm actually pretty ok with cutting back across the board if it allows other people to play comfortably. For instance, many Europeans complain about Americans complaining about sex but will allow all kinds of horrible violence. I'm all for curtailing both and limiting what gets out into main in public places.

Oh yes...People complain about two guys kissing in main but are fine with all kinds of violence. In fact I think the violence stuff is even worse...sexual RPs used to take place in group chat but violence is celebrated in main. ;)

You can't police what people do in group or tell but especially once it starts spilling outside of those areas I think it shouldn't happen.

Well, actually that is not true. Since /report doesn't notify the target anymore GMs can read group chat without anyone knowing. The question is of course if anyone wants this kind of "monitoring". But as far as I know it was already done to ban sexual RPs in the past also from groups.


Edit: damn smilies again

Edit2:
In the end I agree with all people that forbidding anything in RP is usually a bad idea. That is true for violent RPs as well as for sexual RPs. But I don't agree that standards making sure only those are exposed to these topics who really want are a bad idea also.