Author Topic: Condescension and Bad Attitude in Documentation, Game Tips, and Introduction  (Read 3274 times)

Tomekeeper

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I have made an account specifically to address this one point and that's it, otherwise I recognize that an innumerable amount of items are works in progress and can (and likely will) be addressed at some point. 

I have found the one major drawback, so far, is that the overall mood of the introduction NPCs, as well as many of the tips found throughout the game, some of the support documentation, and so forth are both insulting and uncalled for.  I can fully appreciate that this is an indie game developed OpenSource without recompense, and have myself even been the target of team pressure at work (Verizon) for developing programs that I am under no obligation at all to do (free programming by a non-programmer for the company to make my job and my team's job easier with no extra money, no recognition, nor even any extra time to turn a 20-man job into a 5-man job).  I 100% understand what this kind of work is like, but the ATTITUDE that seeps through into the game is needlessly barbaric and, I believe, inexcusable.  This same point that is being made through RTFM-preaching and condescension is double-edged -- one friendly programmer is more valuable than two unapproachable and crotchety ones, and one genuinely friendly game with a few bugs is better than a polished one that treats the player base like expendable and incompetent malcontents.

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The average WASD-savvy player should ideally be able to sit down and figure the game out in minutes, with little to no action halting or documentation.  That is the goal.  Manuals, NPC lectures, and further reading aren't where the normal player wants to go when playing a game -- it's about having fun as fast as possible, and getting engrossed in the world without feeling like a legal expert on a game.  It's not about boning up on highly nuanced instructions.  This is ALSO a form of killing the RP experience which is inflicted by the programmers -- legalese and getting drowned in documentation, tedious slow-paced monologues, and preachy lectures on how to approach RP before simple and concise instructions about game mechanics and interface.  Do keep in mind:  there are literally millions of other places to learn how to RP -- there are perhaps a few dozen to learn about how to play PlaneShift.

A fairly inexpensive observation:  we can probably start the reformation with the very name of this forum section...  it somewhat demeans anyone who posts here, quite frankly, and could afford a change of tone to something more aligned to its ostensible purpose, being an uncategorized/unsorted aesthetics and presentation bucket rather than where whiners go to game flame.

As mentioned above, too, the programmer's folly strikes repeatedly:  as though the average player should dutifully sift through hundreds of pages of potential documentation to find the answer to their questions.  Worth asking is:  1)  Why is the player confused?  What about the game (not the player) could be improved to make this more apparent?  If the answer is "nothing" and the game is perfect, the player will simply have to suffer, and congratulations on making a perfect game!  2) Could the introductory parts be made more concise (not more verbose) to better address these questions, if they can not be made blatantly self-explanatory (like WASD movement -- a simple pop-up pictogram could, in mere seconds, explain what is presently being delivered by a lengthy monologue).  Don't say, "go learn about the world/races by reading our literature".  I think it's fair to say that everyone already knew that this was an option.  Make it engaging!  Make quests that encourage you to learn about the places and people by participating!  Not multiple-choice quest answers or skill-testing questions either; make it memorable, not about memorization.  It can be completely engaging to go see the sights!  Make those delivery quests count for something.  Make those talk-to quests short and fun!  Talk to noteworthy characters, or participate in cultural events and customs to teach players about the world.

"... 20 snobs who only talk to their Role-playing friends" -- this was from a MOTD upon logging in and sounds like someone's personal axe to grind with a very unprofessional and accusatory tone about it.

"If you don't use the bugtracker, don't complain!" -- Do we really not see a nicer way to say this?  "Complain"?  Again, a rather unprofessional and starkly accusatory tone.  I can't find the quote again either, but I remember another one to the effect of, "This isn't a professional team of full-time developers so don't ask for the world."  Imploring for politeness, likewise, can be accusatory or it can be a reminder and sometimes it's not clear which is which.

Even certain NPCs will use the negative voice, expecting a negative response for an affirmation, likely as a trick, such as the Rat Eye quest given by Levrus. (i.e. 'Do you want to not be killed? -- Yes.')  This is bad for players who do not natively speak English, seems like a trick for those that do to test their reading skill, and is therefore unclear.

Some of the documentation and instructions of the game are condescending and/or tedious/verbose in this same manner, with the opinion that it's the player's assumed duty to dig through multiple needlessly long documents before playing.  How much documentation did you read to play WoW, or Guild Wars, or SWTOR?  Virtually or actually none?  Exactly.

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I could go on substantially longer but, taking a pinch of my own advice, I won't.  The point is made, and I hope it is followed up on.

I do like the game and think this is a WORTHY project, and a million thanks to the devs for putting in their time to make this real.  :)

LigH

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Welcome to the PlaneShift forums.

You are not the first complaining some of these points. But you may belong to only few who take all of them so serious. And you seem to make a similar mistake like many before ... starting with wrong assumptions.

PlaneShift is a project which developed over at least a decade for the 3D game era only. And it is still not in a current shape, comparing to other games. Simply because other (especially commercial) games are developed by dozens of full-time working people. PlaneShift, in contrast, is an Open Source project where people can only spend their spare time. Who wants to regret being employed? Real life first. The more detailed you can address issues and collect them in a bugtracker task, the easier they can be fixed in a near future (provided it is an easy fix at all). But a general complaint about "something that has to be done" will be done "soon™"... ;)

Just an example: The tutorial was added "not long ago", in relation to the whole development. And the game engine is not yet able to handle much more than dialogues; I doubt it is able to pop up images while an NPCs talks to your character, at all! (So much about showing you a WASD diagram during the tutorial...)

We will appreciate your input, your contributions, and possibly even your application to join the team.

Gag Harmond
Knight and Ambassador
The Royal House of Purrty

Illysia

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And now that the party line has been stated. Honestly Tomekeeper, if you are already this discontent, the chances are good that won't be getting resolved any time soon. Take it from someone that has complained far more on far more things, the least painful route is to either learn to go with it or find something else that is better suited to what you are looking for.

At this point, PS had neither the manpower nor goodwill to get enough people to make a lot of changes. Further, the condescension isn't as bad as it can be and has been, so I guess you can say they are already working on it. As for axes to grind, the forum is full of the battle grounds. It's probably something that makes more sense in the context of the issues/complaints/etc. that probably triggered those kinds of motds.

However, the easiest way to learn is to find a player willing to help since you can't give that which is considered a spoiler in public places. Most people will probably help in this regard since we all had to go through the same process at some point.

Tomekeeper

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I'll qualify what I said insofar as that it's decisive but perhaps not as emotionally loaded as its being read.  That being said though...

LigH:  Thanks, and I do mean that.  That's a meaningful response and I appreciate both the candor and the explanation in so far as it goes.  That's about as much as I was hoping for right there.  IMO, mission accomplished, if the point was made and it was heard.  The system works then.

Illysia:  "It could be worse so it shouldn't be better" thinking is the quick path to mediocrity and ambivalence, in my experience.  Proffering apologetics for bad designs and bad choices only validates them later, I think, and only provides a slope worth finding slippery at some later date, so yes, I say it with all due earnesty though I don't think that's cause to waffle on the matter or back down from something that could give a very bad first impression to new players.

verden

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Leave the tutorial, the guy is standing right behind you when you load into it. And forget about being in commercial game where they pamper you at every turn and have to treat you nicely because you are the customer.

Thats blunt, no? But not intended to be rude. The fact of the matter is you plopped down smack in the middle of something and you cannot see what you are actually looking at. You don't even know what you cannot see in this case.

The tutorial was written by non-Native English speaking persons, for the most part. It is sometimes blunt where it should not be, and way too verbose where it could be concise. 

But I completely agree with changing some of those basic messages. I think a couple of them were put in by... name I will not mention... one of the people who worked on the game who was legendary for their charm and aplomb (sarcasm). Please open a ticket on the bugtracker to express any specific concerns you have, and try to edit down that text -- as I said, non-native English speakers working on the game here, gotta make things concise for them.

Please remember as you are reading our responses and reading the game messages that there is no such thing as "tone" in text... if you are hearing it, then 98% of the time it is your mind putting a tone onto the message. Except that 2%... like some of those MOTD messages.

But hey... welcome to PlaneShift!

Tomekeeper

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Ah.  So Voldemort was or is part of the team eh?  It all seems so obvious now.  heheh.  :P

verden

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PlaneShift attracts a wide variety of personalities. So yes, after a fashion. ;)

Catlemur

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Is there going to be a new project/comitee on improving NPC dialogs?

Illysia

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Illysia:  "It could be worse so it shouldn't be better" thinking is the quick path to mediocrity and ambivalence, in my experience.  Proffering apologetics for bad designs and bad choices only validates them later, I think, and only provides a slope worth finding slippery at some later date, so yes, I say it with all due earnesty though I don't think that's cause to waffle on the matter or back down from something that could give a very bad first impression to new players.

I'll avoid commenting on slippery slopes and bad impressions as I have left those thoughts in enough places in the forum. However, people have complained and the same complaints remain because time and time again the situation doesn't change. Optimism is all nice and fine, but I've see people still complain about stuff I heard people complain about years ago. What does that say about the effectiveness of complaining?

Further, I don't think the tutorial was written by a non native speaker. It just hasn't been reworked since it was last reworked into what it currently is. either way, it's all nice and good to say this should be done, this could be done, but who does it and when? I say what I say because of practical application, not best possible scenario.

When all is said an done, it's not just a matter of this game not being commercial. It simply doesn't have a track record for that method resulting in as much. Or when a complain is responded to, so far, most of the people complaining about it are gone.

verden

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I defer to Illysia as always, that was IMHO. But it is good to be aware of the language differences surrounding the project, in any case.