How to run a new player off.

[Rigwyn]

The Teletubbies have their place in Kada El's along with the epic pokemon battlers... who have left since then... Still, that's the place for that sort of thing

[Volki]

no

[Rigwyn]

Ah...ok, I see what you mean now. Sorry.

Its tricky... its not like we can put a fence around ourselves with a warning sign on it. We could warn that we're going to be talking about X and Y only to find out later that someone has an issue with Z

[Taya]

It was explained numerous times, that many of us use ....  REMOTE LOCATIONS... to remove us from those who might find our RP objectionable. Somehow that point seems to get missed.

I know there are strong reasons for this, but this is also problematic in itself. What about those of us who WANT to find these RPs but then never ever stumble onto them, precisely because they are being held in such remote locations?

I remember when I started playing it was much easier to just walk into in depth ongoing plotlines and get involved. Now I can't find any, yet I'm hearing complaints that there are too many of them and not enough of the other kinds of RPs, yet all I come across are those other kinds. I'm really finding it hard to just blame timezone differences, though I know this is a big factor at least. Another factor is that people seem to want to RP with Taya sometimes, but when I ask if I can play an alt instead they lose all interest and don't want to RP anymore.

I have now mostly quit RP because of this. I just don't have the energy to invest in wandering round for hours a night and going away dissatisfied almost every time. Even the 'tavern RP' I have found is generally flat and unengaging, and believe me, I have tried to persevere with these RPs as well. But in all, it means that the RP I really do enjoy being so hidden is a big factor in pushing me out of the game.

[Rigwyn]

I know there are strong reasons for this, but this is also problematic in itself. What about those of us who WANT to find these RPs but then never ever stumble onto them, precisely because they are being held in such remote locations?

It's not really ideal, I agree. Let me give an example of how I would do it. I would do any sort of planning for BF activity in the temple or some other well controlled area. This made sense ICly and helped reduce the changes of OOC leaking.

For murders, robberies, crimes etc, they would be done in remote locations or semi-remote locations mainly for IC reasons. For example, you can't bash someone in front of a guard -- from an IC perspective, the guards would own your ass and lock you up. Since there are no GMs to play the guards, you have to just do stuff like this away from them. Some of us would call this respecting the settings.

For all other stuff, I prefer to do things in the open so that others can overhear things, get involved, interdict and so on.

I'm really finding it hard to just blame timezone differences, though I know this is a big factor at least. Another factor

There are a lot less "leaders" playing. Very few people take the lead. Anyone can do it, but few do. I would say that for most, its hard to do for personal reasons such as fear of being criticism, fear of failure or screwing up badly, insecurity about not really knowing how to take the lead, etc. Sometimes the problem is that only the baddies have leaders or only the goodies have leaders.

is that people seem to want to RP with Taya sometimes, but when I ask if I can play an alt instead they lose all interest and don't want to RP anymore.

I don't know about your particular case, but I've seen this quite often. Sometimes its simply because people want to play with well established characters like Taya. Sometimes its because there is less at stake when you use an alt as opposed to your main. The thinking goes like this: "I'm going to risk getting my main in terrible trouble, but you are not putting anything at risk because you are using an alt." I think the best thing to do is to talk to the people in question and find out what their thoughts are on the matter.

I used to have one player come up to me all the time and say, "I have a new alt... want to kill her?" and I'd be like, "No, that's not really interesting." When you play a character a lot and connect it with other characters, it gets tied into the world. It becomes *someone* and when that character is harmed or gains something good, those who are connected to it will react. You don't get this with unconnected alts. Likewise, an alt with no personality or anything is more like a puppet. Does that make sense?

I have now mostly quit RP because of this. I just don't have the energy to invest in wandering round for hours a night and going away dissatisfied almost every time. Even the 'tavern RP' I have found is generally flat and unengaging, and believe me, I have tried to persevere with these RPs as well. But in all, it means that the RP I really do enjoy being so hidden is a big factor in pushing me out of the game.

If you ask me, I say plan something. Discuss what you want to RP with others OOCly and then agree to log in at a certain time and place regularly. It's your time and its precious. There's no sense in wasting it. I did that too and got fed up. I don't have 18 hours a day to stand there and wait for others to log in. I'm willing to spend 1 to 3 hours tops if I have that much time.

[Taya]

Lots to respond to and I'm low on time and lazy to quote.

About respecting settings - I'm on the settings team and probably, if anything, respect them too much. Though I am guessing you didn't really mean to imply otherwise.  The real point was that a lot of the people who were previously open to these RPs have now gone further 'into hiding' so to speak and, based on conversations I've had with a few different people, it feels like they have been pushed there. Of course dark deeds get done in hidden corners, but the corners selected feel increasingly dark and distant ones chosen for OOC hiding as much as IC.

Regarding 'RP leaders' - I've tried. I've even had a few nice things going in the past but without any exception at all I have been let down by the players I have tried to involve OR there just haven't been suitable players who I can depend on to be around at the same time as I am. I have now lost the willpower to try again. I just haven't had enough back for my effort on all previous attempts. (Which isn't necessarily to blame the people I have RPed with.)

Regarding alts - I really only call them this for ease of understanding. Taya is more recognisable because she's the one I play by mechanics as well and the name I choose to use OOC, but I have three other characters with just as much RP development and background as her, and quite often the 'I only want to RP with Taya' stance is taken by those who are aware of this. I'm not willing to grind three other characters to high levels, but they have just as strong RP potential as Taya has ever had and they are certainly not characters that I would ever risk with no real investment of my own. Their stories and personalities are as developed and as vital to me as an RPer as Taya ever was. If I was offering people alts I just made and had never played before, it would be different of course. But that's not the case.

[novacadian]

These last couple of pages have explained a lot, to me, why RP never finds me. There have been about 3 RP plots come my way since starting here. It was my thought that perhaps my Character's OOC was driving them away. Perhaps that is a factor too; yet it seems so very odd that RPers are complaining about lack of players while not including those trying to hang on here.
 
As my mention previously in this thread, it may come back to the lightness which is missing from the play. This is not meant to be lightness of content but a lightness of the players.
 
The younger child generally includes all in their play; even bringing in adults for their high teas if they'll have it. The last couple of pages is sounding more like high school cliques and explains a great deal of players going off as opposed to driven off.
 
If one comes to PS for RP and does not like what they find, and they are experienced RPers, then they can create their own or leave. When more unexperienced RPers come to PS and can find no substantive RP then maybe they simply drift away on their own.
 
The compromise would be to post or ooc the bulliten boards with an invite of an RP, explaining the tone if not details, and then /tells would seem more natural to be able to find them.
 
If it is more, as seems to me, that the RPs are off on their own because the clique wants it that way then it is not a community that is being tried to be built here but different groups of players using a game software that meets their needs to get together. That is totally cool; yet don't complain about the player base if they are seen to you as second class players not to be included. What's left to them? Quests and grinding. One does not need to have a doctoral paper to explain why that does not keep them long.

- Nova

[typos editing ]

[Mariana Xiechai]

Regarding 'RP leaders' - I've tried. I've even had a few nice things going in the past but without any exception at all I have been let down by the players I have tried to involve OR there just haven't been suitable players who I can depend on to be around at the same time as I am. I have now lost the willpower to try again. I just haven't had enough back for my effort on all previous attempts. (Which isn't necessarily to blame the people I have RPed with.)

I concur. I think the biggest thump on the head for me was when I tried to get four different "baddies" tied together or an RP, had them all lined up...and then all four of them simultaneously quit. Practically on the same day. When something like that happens, your efforts are rendered pretty pointless. On top of that, when all tend to get for your efforts is a browbeating and various different forms of "you ain't doin' this bit right" it sort of makes you lose all desire you had to try to form something.

If it is more, as seems to me, that the RPs are off on their own because the clique wants it that way then it is not a community that is being tried to be built here but different groups of players using a game software that meets their needs to get together. That is totally cool; yet don't complain about the player base if they are seen to you as second class players not to be included.

I have to say that I don't think this is the case. At least, not for a lot of folks. Most folks would prefer to include people, if they could. I know I've tried repeatedly to put my alts in a place where they can be easily accessed and include a lot of new folks in the past, and I've tried to invite them to play. Unfortunately, I no longer have the energy nor the time to keep forming large-scale role play. I do little things on the side to try to initiate things, but I doubt I'll work up enough motivation to run anything large again. Running a role play by oneself is tiring, and leading one takes more effort than one might think. When you find yourself getting stressed out just trying to please every person that happens to wander into the story your building, the game is no longer fun for you. But I certainly wouldn't say that people consider new players to be "second rate." I mean, just recently I've had a newbie regularly walk up to me and interact with me, and I'll freely admit the dude's a better, funnier roleplayer than I am. Elbyre. I'd recommend approaching him, if you get the chance.

[Rigwyn]

About respecting settings - I'm on the settings team and probably, if anything, respect them too much. Though I am guessing you didn't really mean to imply otherwise.

No, I simply meant that because of settings limitations, situations that would beg an NPC to interact need to be avoided, thus crimes need to be done away from the guards - driving us either into isolated corners, the sewers, or out of the city. I was not in any way suggesting that you would disregard the settings.

Regarding 'RP leaders' - I've tried. I've even had a few nice things going in the past but without any exception at all I have been let down by the players I have tried to involve OR there just haven't been suitable players who I can depend on to be around at the same time as I am. I have now lost the willpower to try again. I just haven't had enough back for my effort on all previous attempts. (Which isn't necessarily to blame the people I have RPed with.)

And that's one of the challenges of being a *giver*. It can be unfulfilling at times. With very low player count, its even harder. 

If I was offering people alts I just made and had never played before, it would be different of course. But that's not the case.

Some (few) people do just that - offer disposable alts. I honestly didn't know if that was the case or not. I too play multiple characters, some more developed than others.

[Rigwyn]

These last couple of pages have explained a lot, to me, why RP never finds me. There have been about 3 RP plots come my way since starting here. It was my thought that perhaps my Character's OOC was driving them away. Perhaps that is a factor too; yet it seems so very odd that RPers are complaining about lack of players while not including those trying to hang on here.

No. When you are leading an event, as you know, the best case scenario is for everyone to join in, contribute and have fun. Its tricky to find RP because there is very little happening and the world is too big for the fist full of players that are on at a given time.

From an IC perspective, when you are doing bad things, you don't try to draw too much attention.

Gossip is awesome for spreading RP and keeping people informed ICly. Sadly, gossip does not spread will in a vacuum.

[Taya]

These last couple of pages have explained a lot, to me, why RP never finds me. There have been about 3 RP plots come my way since starting here. It was my thought that perhaps my Character's OOC was driving them away. Perhaps that is a factor too; yet it seems so very odd that RPers are complaining about lack of players while not including those trying to hang on here.

I don't find it odd at all. Too many factors make it hard to find someone you can RP with.
1 - Limited players to begin with.
2 - Building on this, only a certain portion of those players wants RP anyway.
3 - Building further, only a certain potion of those players are in the same time zone as you and are able to focus on RP when you are. (This is the problem I ran into with the likes of Mari and Tessra. It doesn't matter how good or suitable their RP is for me if it's being held at 4am in the morning and I need to get up and go to work at 7am.)
4 - Building further again on this, out of those that are interested in RP and regularly in game and able to focus at the same times as you how many then have the same RP preferences?

It's all well and good saying we should make the most of what we have and RP with whoever we can, but, when it comes down to it, why would you get involved in RP that bores you / makes you uncomfortable / goes into areas that you simply don't want to be involved in? It's possible to mix it up a bit and get involved to some extent yes and I am all for that, but if in the end you are spending a lot more time doing RP that others want rather than what interests you, then your reasons to continue fall apart. And it's not odd at all that people would complain at a lack of the thing that enables them to get what they want from the game.

It really comes down to having too small a player base.

[novacadian]

It really comes down to having too small a player base.

My point was it explains the small player base (as well as hardware limitation). If only one RP plot finds its way to me every year or more then something is up.
 
Keep in mind my entry into PS was long before the sharp drop in the player base; so your last point does not hold up.
 
- Nova

[Zalya]

I am surprised with how far this thread has gone. Oh boy where do I start.

Well going way back to the conversation about dark and gritty, there are some pretty solid reasons to keep it at least a little light in major area's. In addition to certain triggers and painful recollections there are also a good deal of younger players floating around too. I started playing when I was fairly young. And I know that there are younger players too. That being said the cautions being taken are good ones. And don't get me wrong, I love to see a certain level of gritty, dark, soul crushing miasma. Heck, I go out of my way to find it sometimes. There is balance in all things, and I think its generally handled pretty well. There have been times where I have felt uncomfortable before, but some OOC chat is generally all that is needed to tone things down a bit.

On completely different note, I have found that some of the most fun I've had with RP's is the spontaneous stuff. You can plan and plan and plan, but its the stuff that comes out of nowhere that really tends to drive things for me. I'm sure Tessra recalls when Zalya kidnapped Teshia's child to give him cookies. That created some tension . Some of these other RP's are fun, but they occasionally lack that spark. Especially when each step is planned. I know that Mariana is usually pretty good at combining the planned with the unplanned. From all my years as a Pen and Paper RPG GM I have found that this applies to any situation. I ran an adventure last night where the players out of the blue decided that they wanted to hold a tournament for the kingdom. That went on for hours and was a remarkable amount of fun. Made me have to think on my feet though. But I digress. Basically, I find the leadership position in a game like Planeshift to be hard to pinpoint, and that's a good thing. The best RP's are the ones that are spontaneous.

The low player count has been an ongoing problem, but one that is not beyond fixing. I have seen at least six people in this thread alone who have strong feelings about RP and all want to see it succeed. I'd like to see them ingame Its one thing to be bitter on the forums, but if we don't try and get in game nothing is going to change. I personally love talking to new players (When I don't scare them off )And I love talking to old ones too. Its that blend that makes it worth while. When I talk about PS with my friends, I still make a point to stress that the community is still one that is overwhelmingly nice and accepting. Sure it might not seem like it all the time, but I'm telling you Planeshift holds so much more than the average MMO. I love this game. I've been playing it for years. Its my home away from home. You are all an like an extended family to me. Of course family members have their augments, we are human (or at the very least humanoid) after all. I try and get in game as often as I can while still keeping a fairly consistent social life. I'd like to see you all around more too

[Taya]

It really comes down to having too small a player base.

My point was it explains the small player base (as well as hardware limitation). If only one RP plot finds its way to me every year or more then something is up.
 
Keep in mind my entry into PS was long before the sharp drop in the player base; so your last point does not hold up.

I'm sorry, but I will have to just agree to disagree with you on this. You can use it to an extent to explain 'part' of the reason why there is a small player base, but it's a circle as the small player base in itself is a problem as well. More RP might help increase the player base, but more player base would also increase the RP, and from a personal standpoint I have tried over and over to RP absolutely anything I can, even when it's been RP that doesn't interest me, and just the same I have seen the player base shrinking further.

The more players there are, the greater the chance of you finding someone to RP with. Everytime I enter the game and look for RP this gets proven, so I am not sure how you can claim it doesn't hold up.

[Illysia]

I know there are strong reasons for this, but this is also problematic in itself. What about those of us who WANT to find these RPs but then never ever stumble onto them, precisely because they are being held in such remote locations?

Lack of depth is less a problem of location and more a problem of just being rare. Depth can come from any kind of RP though.

There are a lot less "leaders" playing. Very few people take the lead. Anyone can do it, but few do. I would say that for most, its hard to do for personal reasons such as fear of being criticism, fear of failure or screwing up badly, insecurity about not really knowing how to take the lead, etc. Sometimes the problem is that only the baddies have leaders or only the goodies have leaders.

Yeah and people are getting worn down hard, as already seen in the thread, so they give up. Other people don't want to try because it looks hard especially after people crash and burn trying to stand up to it without a strong enough support system. Thus there is too much burden on the people that try. That's why I always tried to get people together for a concerted push. You need a bunch of people leading at once, that stay in close contact, and work together on everyone's projects, so that when one falters someone else can step in and keep them from getting crushed under the weight of keeping things going. It's too big a job for one person.

If it is more, as seems to me, that the RPs are off on their own because the clique wants it that way then it is not a community that is being tried to be built here but different groups of players using a game software that meets their needs to get together.

The problem is not so much cliques as players get worn down and then to keep having fun they have to turn to the players they know they can rely on for fun. It becomes clique-ish after awhile but not because that was the intent. It's typically the last move for someone that is on their way to not be able to continue trying to struggle with this battle.

but if in the end you are spending a lot more time doing RP that others want rather than what interests you, then your reasons to continue fall apart. And it's not odd at all that people would complain at a lack of the thing that enables them to get what they want from the game.

It really comes down to having too small a player base.

True on on the problem of losing interest, but it is not a matter of small player base. the game started with a small playerbase and grew. The problem is that what players there are left are not working close enough together to compensate. Obviously people feel strongly about this and agree there is a problem and something must be done. Several people have tried to do something but it didn't pan out because they are working in parallel and not together.

Its one thing to be bitter on the forums, but if we don't try and get in game nothing is going to change. I personally love talking to new players (When I don't scare them off )And I love talking to old ones too. Its that blend that makes it worth while.

It helps to be in game for obvious reasons, but remember, this game once had 300 players online at a time and the numbers declined to where we are not anyway. It's not the people in game, it's the level of cooperation and how well they work together.