Some learn by doing...

[Volki]

Plenty of solutions have been offered by the playerbase.

[Rigwyn]

It would be nice if you made less trips and trained in bigger increments.

This is why:

* The player "Pays a price" by training until their bar is full.
* They "Pay" again when they run to the trainer.
* They "Pay" again and pay him with tria.

In return, their skill level goes up one notch.

As a player, its discouraging when you return to fighting npcs and see that there is no noticeable improvement.

I do understand that if you reward too quickly, then you run out of rewards too soon, but I think its just as bad when you reward too slowly. Another option might be to have more granularity in NPC strength so that small changes in skill are visible.


[ Edit: Deleted a lot of unneeded words ]

[Eonwind]

As a player, its discouraging when you return to fighting npcs and see that there is no noticeable improvement.

I do understand that if you reward too quickly, then you run out of rewards too soon, but I think its just as bad when you reward too slowly. Another option might be to have more granularity in NPC strength so that small changes in skill are visible.

Rigwyn I think we should separate the discussion on how fast the progression is from how the progression can be done. About the first a lot of improvements have been made since the last time and many of you have already noticed it was noticeably faster than before, as of now almost every skill takes about the same time it takes to train combat skills (which were the fastest skills to train in game from the mechanics pov).

About the latter:

It would be nice if you made less trips and trained in bigger increments.

I think (always considering how the actual system we have works) this [training in bigger increments] should be avoided, why? Because if you get to decide the skill you want to train and then you don't need to make the choice for 10 levels [aka you automatically practice the same skill for the next 9 levels] the systems would steal the ability to choose weather spending your experience points from you: each time you practice a skill enough to level experience would be automatically spent, so it could happens you get to be locked in a situation where you're unable to train other skills you want until you didn't reach the point where you can choose again (let's say after 9 levels).
A better solution imo would be to make available trainers more widespread, so you don't need to do travel a lot because the trainers are next to you. For example we tried to cover the issue with more trainers especially in the lower skill range like (but still a lot can be done, for example making them available in every city).

[Rigwyn]

Didn't mean to drift too far from the OP. My main point is that there could be a better balance between cost and reward so that its more encouraging overall. I do admit, my pov may be a bit outdated.

[cdmoreland]

New players don't stand a chance. With the mobs attacking at will, they can't even do a quest in Ojaveda, if they can even live long enough to get there. Quests are about the only way for a new player to get PP and tria.

[Rigwyn]

Oja is tough for new characters, but its not the only city.

[Volki]

It would be nice if you made less trips and trained in bigger increments.

I think (always considering how the actual system we have works) this [training in bigger increments] should be avoided, why? Because if you get to decide the skill you want to train and then you don't need to make the choice for 10 levels [aka you automatically practice the same skill for the next 9 levels] the systems would steal the ability to choose weather spending your experience points from you: each time you practice a skill enough to level experience would be automatically spent, so it could happens you get to be locked in a situation where you're unable to train other skills you want until you didn't reach the point where you can choose again (let's say after 9 levels).
A better solution imo would be to make available trainers more widespread, so you don't need to do travel a lot because the trainers are next to you. For example we tried to cover the issue with more trainers especially in the lower skill range like (but still a lot can be done, for example making them available in every city).

Or you could do the obvious and make it so the player doesn't have to go to an NPC to learn every new level.

At level 0, you don't have to go to an NPC. At level 5, you're unable to learn any more on your own, so you must go to an NPC. You learn more on your own, then at level 10 you must go to an NPC.

You could also create books that can train players (up to a point, since books can't teach the nuances of the real thing). They are portable and reusable. Might be like a little "used textbook" market.

Oja is tough for new characters, but its not the only city.

So you suggest noobs drop quests that take them to Oja...? luls

[Eonwind]

New players don't stand a chance. With the mobs attacking at will, they can't even do a quest in Ojaveda, if they can even live long enough to get there.

if there is a specific problem with some mobs behaviour then it will be dealt with and solved, in the specific case I will make it so the Rogues behavior isn't triggered when a character is assesed to be weak.
Most of the low level mobs anyway are not aggressive by default (rats, clackers, coamti) and aggressive mobs are mainly located in the wilderness area and in dangerous zone, and anyway staying on track between a city and the other a player will hardly be attacked by any monster as they have specific regions they stay inside.

Quests are about the only way for a new player to get PP and tria.

this is simply not true: looting low level monster is a simple way to get both experience and tria; the arena area has been specifically designed for training and this purpose, there are pits hosting low level mobs, and there are merchants ready to buy player's loot.
Crafting is another big source of both trias and experience (probably even bigger than hunting at the moment), mining and harvesting too and there are mines and harvesting areas next to hydlaa where it's possible to get the most common resources for crafting with no risk of being attacked by monsters.

Anyway it's true there are some areas designed not to be newbie areas but to offer challenges for trained characters. Bronze Door is one of them.

I will only add one things on mobs behaviour: most of the aggressive mobs have been programmed so that when they spot a player (longer range) they stop (if moving) and turn to face him but they won't attack until the player moves to a shorter distance. This was done on purpose to warn the player they've been spotted and they're running the risk of facing a threat, if they happily run trough the monster then they're facing their own doom

[Eonwind]

At level 0, you don't have to go to an NPC. At level 5, you're unable to learn any more on your own, so you must go to an NPC. You learn more on your own, then at level 10 you must go to an NPC.

I think you must learn to read better. I said this is basically stealing control from the end user and I will never do it. Stealing control from the user is very BAD things to do.

[Raxuss]

So...why couldn't you train several skills at once with Volki's idea? You know, the green bar goes up as you train, you decide to do a different skill, and go raise that green bar instead?

Assuming PPs are gone, that doesn't sound like a bad idea at all. I see no 'stealing' of control. In fact, I see it as allowing more flexibility as a whole. Unless ya'll mean to completely restrict a player to training one skill at a time, which makes little sense. Already we can train several skills at once, depending on what I'm doing.

[Volki]

Thank you, Raxuss.

At level 0, you don't have to go to an NPC. At level 5, you're unable to learn any more on your own, so you must go to an NPC. You learn more on your own, then at level 10 you must go to an NPC.

I think you must learn to read better. I said this is basically stealing control from the end user and I will never do it. Stealing control from the user is very BAD things to do.

Could you explain how it is stealing control from the player? And my reading comprehension is far above average, for the record.

[Eonwind]

I will try to explain very simply:

• whenever a player pays for the skill trias and exp are spent at the same time. player voluntarily spend trias and exp by hitting the train button;
• the player practice the skill gaining practice points
• when enough practice points are gained the system raise the skill to the next level, the player can train again starting from point 1

if the step number 1 is done only once every 5-10 levels then it means the system will skip point 1) 9 times over 10, this means when completing point 3) the system has to automatically spend trias and exp (if the player has enough of it) to start over from point 2). This cycle will go on again until the stopping point (level 5-10) is reached.

The result is the machine will assume step 1) as true (nine times over 10) that now is authorized by the end user thus partly stealing control from the user.

[Raxuss]

So, don't do it. Pay for all of the sessions at once when you go train. DO NOT have an auto-pay every time you rank up, that'd be horrible. I don't know where that idea came from, but it needs to go home. We can agree that's terrible.

When you train, you train for the next x-static-number of ranks. This uses both your money and PP (assuming we still have that). Right now, x = 1. Make it x = 5 or maybe even x = 10.


But there's a problem with that I want hit; the costs. If every time you go train you need to pay for several training sessions instead of just increments of one, it can come to a point where you'll need a lot more stuff before you can go train again. I won't pretend I know how much tria people have at the higher levels ranks, but I know training gets expensive as I go along. So, I'm going to assume the worst case scenario and say that the idea leaves everyone stalled due to funds/PP. I have two ways I'd do this noise:

1. Make training less expensive in their individual costs, train in increments larger than one (adding each next increment cost to the next; example train for 5 ranks instead of the one), but make progress take longer (you need to use the skill more to rank up than before). This'll keep people from running out of money, but keep them limited on how fast they rank up. It also let's anyone who went cash-hunting to go train a skill for x-static-number of ranks and really go deep into the skill and get tons of cash (and PP, if it's still there) for other skills they may want to start into.

This way limits players more on the time aspect than the cost aspect. The more time you spend progressing your ranks, the better you'll be. The more active you are, the better your skills.

But I have another way that may or may not help bring food for thought on the topic. This will ignore everything I have typed above and just change one small aspect of the system:

2. Choose how many ranks you want to train for. Instead of making someone train for a static number of ranks, let them decide how many ranks they can afford/want to rank up in before returning to the trainer. That way the player controls the amount they spend and how much longer they have until they need to return to the trainer. Costs and stuff would stay the same, at that point.



But that's just my take on 'making less trips to the trainer'. As far as PP goes, I honestly think that Volki is right. It's in the way and mucking up what could be a simple, easy system to use that's not like your WoW or EVE (maybe a lil' like EVE, or how EVE used to be, anyway).

You train til' your rank is done (by actually doing the skill), you go to a trainer to buy training so you can get more ranks (with tria, because I don't think you can buy food with PP), rinse and repeat, and that's the end of that. No PP costs, just tria.

General experience you guys are seeing (green number showers when you cut 24 Barberries at once) can be either done away with or somehow connected to the progression bar instead. I have an idea on that, but my post is far too long for a new guy like me already.

[Volki]

I forgot that levels are called ranks in this game.

Raxuss, your point #2 is similar to what I was thinking. Originally, as an example, I suggested every 5 ranks you'd have to meet an NPC trainer. Letting the player choose the number of ranks to buy (the amount of knowledge to be taught) is a better option. The player would not have to return to the trainer until he or she runs out of "knowledge" to put to practice. There should be a maximum on the number of ranks a player could buy, so a player couldn't go from being rank 0 to 200 by only visiting a trainer once.

Regarding funds, it's really not that hard to acquire them later on. Not with combat skills, at least.

Eonwind, do you see what we are saying now?

[Eonwind]

So, don't do it. Pay for all of the sessions at once when you go train. DO NOT have an auto-pay every time you rank up, that'd be horrible. I don't know where that idea came from, but it needs to go home. We can agree that's terrible.

When you train, you train for the next x-static-number of ranks. This uses both your money and PP (assuming we still have that). Right now, x = 1. Make it x = 5 or maybe even x = 10.

this seems to me harder to understand for new user than the current system, because other than paying for training you also have to choose how many levels you want to pay for and train in advance, it's overcomplicated.

You train til' your rank is done (by actually doing the skill), you go to a trainer to buy training so you can get more ranks (with tria, because I don't think you can buy food with PP), rinse and repeat, and that's the end of that. No PP costs, just tria.

you described the system exactly the way it is except you would get rid of the experience which makes no sense at all as it's a common feature in the majority of MMORPG for good reasons.

Eonwind, do you see what we are saying now?

I already understood that before and it requires either paying the cost in advance (which is unsupported other than it adds another layout of complexity to the system instead of simplifying it) or having the computer making the choice for you (which would be even worse).