Current Player Levels

[Eatuck]

Hi All,

Someone brought up a big issue at the last dev meeting and I wanted to say why I think the game has lost so many players (and can't retain new players) and give a solution. Frankly, I think the reason for lack of players is the game is one big grinding session. Yes, you can role play without grinding but to be able to do anything with your character using the game mechanics takes weeks to get any where. My solution is to simply make levelling significantly easier and fix crafting to make it faster with less clicks (will give a solution for that in another post). The game is for role play but in its current state, it is mostly all work. I think ultimately a game should be fun and not a grind. Yes the levelling was fixed a bit with the last update but it still needs to be increased significantly. I think a general rule should be whenever a change is proposed or looking at what is currently in the game, please ask yourself, will this add (or currently adds) work to the game or fun. If it adds more work than enjoyment, it should not be added or needs to changed.

That being said, I would like to end this portion on a positive note. I really like what you did with the rogues after the last update. When I tried to fight the rogues at camp banished and one them yelled for help I was pleasantly surprised. It was the most exciting death I have had in a long time. I loved it. Thank you very much for that. 

Eatuck 

[Rigwyn]

Someone brought up a big issue at the last dev meeting and I wanted to say why I think the game has lost so many players (and can't retain new players)

This again... I hope too much thought wasn't given to this. This has been torn apart and discussed on the forums for years.  In brief, the game and community was not really conducive to both role players and grinders. Things were said and done that discouraged grinders and role players alike. People voiced and discussed their dissatisfaction on the forums and eventually left. As a result of the decline, more players left because without the players, the game was not much fun.

Why isn't the population increasing? Its a lot easier to lose players than to gain players. It will take time for people to learn that Planeshift exists, to try it, to like it, and stick to it. Likewise, there are more free games to choose from than there were before. Currently, the game looks vacant and abandoned despite the wandering npcs. That's a bit of a turn off.

Frankly, I think the reason for lack of players is the game is one big grinding session.

That depends on who you are playing with. Of those of use who role play, some of us don't bother to grind at all. Some of us choose not to take stats into consideration because:

1. They require you to spend time grinding - which is not fun and takes away from role playing time.
2. They do not always mesh well with role playing.
3. Stats and skills offer very little in terms of role play.

Yes, you can role play without grinding but to be able to do anything with your character using the game mechanics takes weeks to get any where.

What do the mechanics really offer?
* You can cast spells. Ok, that looks nice, but isn't a big deal.
* You can fight with swords and stuff. A mechanics fight does little to stimulate those who role play their fights. Also, when there is a huge mismatch in stats, it will end the fight too quickly. A one hit kill ends the role play very quickly. That's .... not fun.

My solution is to simply make levelling significantly easier and fix crafting to make it faster with less clicks (will give a solution for that in another post).

I agree. I think the solution though, is to find a better ratio of sacrifice to reward. If the percentage of sacrifice is too high, then the game will fail to satisfy the player.

That being said, I would like to end this portion on a positive note. I really like what you did with the rogues after the last update. When I tried to fight the rogues at camp banished and one them yelled for help I was pleasantly surprised. It was the most exciting death I have had in a long time. I loved it. Thank you very much for that. 

I totally agree. The rogue camp was done quite nicely.

[Volki]

I'm pretty sure Talad refuses to make the game easier so he can limit the number of people who have to suffer the beta-ness of his game.

[Eatuck]

Thank you for your post Rigwyn. You had some really good points in there. I do agree that there needs to be a balance between grinders and role players. I am not a big fan of role play myself so I can't talk from that perspective but I am playing the game to craft, hunt, and chat with my guild mates. From what I take from it, role players need a good player base to have fun and skills based players need less of a grind. Lets look at mining. In my opinion it is by far the most boring thing to do in the game. Why does it need to take so long? I for one don't want to go into the game and spend hours mining to then spend forever doing more repetitive tasks to craft it. If levelling mining was significantly faster and the time it took to get one ore was shorter, it would help new players make more tria (possibly stay in game) and also help the crafters get supplies faster. That sounds like a win win to me.

I would also like to point out some thoughts from my guild mates. Some feel that a big factor for the reduced player base was moving the platinum mine from Gug. I remember digging plat for tria when I first started and it made things much easier. It was also a great place for some role play too. I have no idea why it was removed but stuff like that seemed to be a move in the wrong direction. Players on both sides were having fun so why then was it removed?

In conclusion, I feel like it really shouldn't matter if grinders want to max. It just shouldn't be a ton of work to do so. Are we afraid that max players will just leave? Big Events (like the invasion), quests and updates will keep them playing. Also, an increased player base will bring in more role players. If the game is built around enjoyment, an increase in player base will follow.   

[Rigwyn]

I think some of the friction between role players and grinders came from the idea of using stats to determine the outcome of rp fights. Some also came from the fact that we played by different rules and had different expectations. Completely divorcing from the game's stats and mechanics has helped role players.

Yes, the removal of the plat mine was a kick in the ass for grinders (initially), but I think the bigger disincentive was the implied threat of a wipe that arose from Xillix's infamous discussion.    Once that threat loomed, nobody wanted to waste their time grinding - knowing that their years of sacrifice might be erased overnight. There was further disincentive with the re-balancing of npc strength and so on. I know that part of the problem with the plat mine was that it generated so much money that it invalidated other means of making money. It caused imbalance in the economy which was bad for the game overall ( though very good for miners). The mine is back but I never see anyone there. Last time I remember hearing about people using it was when the Stillwater group took it over. ( With nobody online skilled enough to smelt plat, plat is useless )

For role players, there were some problems with one or two gms who didn't quite understand RP (Well, I should say one high ranking one    ), and a few role players who were pissing off the gms and devs. There was also some friction within the RP camp regarding rules or standards for RP. Some roleplayers felt the rules for RP should be more strict ( I was and still am in that camp ), some felt they should be looser. Those of us who played by strict RP standards ( as most do today ) did not like playing with those who played by very loose standards. The horribly loose standards made them incompatible with us hence many had to be ignored. That in itself is a long story that really does not need to be dug up.

There was also an annoyance factor with grinders who tried to stick their nose into RP without taking it seriously. Some would literally act like small children ( and probably were given their lack of patience and inability hold a simple conversation. ) and do ridiculous things that made no sense. This breaks immersion in a major way. Its like going to a movie theater and and straining to get into the movie while an obnoxious crow of people who could give a crap about the movie start throwing things at the screen and blabbering about things out loud... like their favorite music artists and their last bowel movement. I don't mean in any way to depict all grinders in this light. Some of us who role play grind too and vice versa.

I agree with you, it should not matter if people just want to grind. Let them. So long as stats are not incorporated into RP, it does not matter. Once people start trying to blend stats with RP, problems arise.

[bloodedIrishman]

A whole host of problems and disagreements over years and years drained away the playerbase. This, and the fact that other major MMORPGs started surpassing Planeshift exponentially. Its major strengths are a unique setting, cool lore, and some RP-facilitating amenities.

[tman]

Here's the main problem with grinding in PlaneShift.

In most games, "grinding" is the boring part of the game which you do so that you can have more fun later.  I played RuneScape in middle school.  In that game I grinded a lot of skills, either directly for combat or to get money for gear.  Why?  So I could kill other players in the "wilderness" or other minigames.  That was the ultimate goal.  In GTA V online (which I have been playing lately), you "grind" money by doing little missions (liquor store robberies, car thefts, drug deliveries).  Why?  You can use the money to upgrade your vehicle, buy an apartment for you and your friends to hang in, etc.

The problem in PlaneShift is that there isn't really much you work your way up to.  It seems to be built such that the act of grinding is the fun part.  No, it ranges from mediocre to mind-numbingly boring.  And there's not much you gain by doing it.  You get experience and money, but really the only use for money in this game is training.  You buy a level and keep grinding.

You never reach the "fun part."  There isn't much PvP going on, probably because there's nothing to gain from it.  You can't take anything from your enemy when you kill them.  Basically killing someone in the wilderness just means you're a dick.  So the only benefit you get is being able to kill more NPC monsters.  Which can be fun but gets old quick.  For crafting skills you'll make decent money, but again the only thing you can use money for is training.  Back to the grind.

Personally I grind only because I want to roleplay a character with similar abilities to what I have mechanics-wise.  If I'm playing an alchemist I want to be able to pull out some 300q potions to show/sell.  If I'm RPing casting a spell I want my character to actually be able to cast it.

Minigames would be amazing for helping break the monotony of the grind, and giving people a real reason to train.  We should make some minigames.  Player run, first, and maybe with enough support we can get them into game mechanics.  I'll start a new thread to brainstorm/discuss tomorrow.  I need sleep.

[Rigwyn]

You never reach the "fun part."

This right here is the problem with noob guilds like the first guild I joined. There's all kind of talk about ranks and training, and preparing to dole out some whoop-ass, but the whoop-ass never comes. You just train...

This is why I role play.

If you could player-kill, then you would at least have some need and use or skills but some folks tried that in planeshift with the ezpc server, and it fizzled out.

Having fast paced Raids like in WoW would be cool, but that's no small order.

[Volki]

PKing, raiding, dueling, crafting expensive items, roleplaying an experienced character... Those are the reasons to grind. Problem is, it's so hard to reach max level in anything that there's no one to compete with. There is no competitive market. There are no tournaments. There are no massive battles because there aren't enough high-level players. It's so hard to level that roleplayers refuse to do it. There are never potential victims wandering about in Wildy-like areas (Camp Banished).

I've heard someone, maybe Talad, say something along the lines of "When you reach max level, there is no longer a reason to play the game."

WRONG. Grinding is just the first step. It's the most hated aspect of any game that has ever existed. Players strive to be "max level" for a reason. They want to be equally as powerful as other players. They want respect. They want to be part of a guild or clan, and usually those guilds and clans expect players to be able to hold their own.

Once a player reaches max level, he doesn't suddenly want to stop. It's only the beginning. Grinding is proving that you have the determination. When grinding gets too hard, determination falters. You can only have so much for an online game.

When players start complaining, there's an issue, and you had better fix it or you'll lose players. And that's what has happened with this game.

[novacadian]

Why not simply allow botting? Then at least grinding would not take up too much player real time. As long as it is done what matter if we lock the player into a mindless activity or simply allow modern technology to do it for them? That would be the quickest and by far easiest fix to the nagging debate.

[Eatuck]

A great example of a max character staying is I am currently too weak to participate in invasion events or kill certain beasts. I would need a healer at all times to stay alive. If I was max in axe lets say, I would participate more in the events and community oriented things. But since I am too weak, I have to spend countless hours to train axe one level. I have to hunt for pp and tria, then go hit the dummy a bazillion times. rinse and repeat. Also, HA is not craftable, so I can't even kill maulbers solo (where I get pp) without a good supply of potions with me. MA characters have no problem going solo against whatever they like with 300q MA. That is another wish list post that I made in hopes that craftable HA would be included but I should stay on the topic at hand. In conclusion, I want to max to feel like I can participate but I can't so the only option is to grind in hopes of getting to that level some day. Maybe a year down the road I will get there. Maybe I will get frustrated with spending hours and hours of my life doing the same thing over and over again. Max characters will stay involved in events, helping new players, role playing, creating events, etc. There is so many possibilities other than to grind.

[Rigwyn]

Once you get there, Eatuck, you see that it didn't change anything. 

Sure, its fun to kill things quickly and zap out spells at things. But role playing, actually being that wizard or warrior that you wanted to be in the first place, and actually playing out that role in vivid detail is something that the graphics cannot offer.

While you and others are sitting there and trying to keep your eyes open, suffering as you grind, some of us are having a great time partaking in all sorts of crazy evil plots.

[Eonwind]

Why not simply allow botting? Then at least grinding would not take up too much player real time. As long as it is done what matter if we lock the player into a mindless activity or simply allow modern technology to do it for them? That would be the quickest and by far easiest fix to the nagging debate.

because the bandwidth, computing power, servers, everything is donated and botting is ABUSING it.

I just want to point one thing peoples don't seem to get or more probably it's not been made quite clear: we have 200 rank for each skill, maxing out a few skills means the character isn not powerful, but is hyper-super-powerful.
Most other MMORPG have the level cap at 80 levels, in a quick comparison with PS it means having 2-3 skills at 100.
Truth to be told: while it's true you can train up to 200 at the moment only few skills have challenges and standards to support a character over 100. Yes, it's true your maxed out character will have very few (and it's an understatement) challenges.

Now a little survey: how many stat rank has the most dangerous (released) creature in the game? 

Minigames would be amazing for helping break the monotony of the grind, and giving people a real reason to train.  We should make some minigames.  Player run, first, and maybe with enough support we can get them into game mechanics.  I'll start a new thread to brainstorm/discuss tomorrow.  I need sleep.

Planeshift engine already support some kind of minigames (game boards, something like "tic tac toe") since a lot of years. Lately I'm working to release some in game, however inventing some new and original ones is challenging, suggestions are welcome.

[tman]

Max characters will stay involved in events, helping new players, role playing, creating events, etc. There is so many possibilities other than to grind.

You know all of these things can be done without being maxed out, right?

[Rigwyn]

I just want to point one thing peoples don't seem to get or more probably it's not been made quite clear: we have 200 rank for each skill, maxing out a few skills means the character isn not powerful, but is hyper-super-powerful.
Most other MMORPG have the level cap at 80 levels, in a quick comparison with PS it means having 2-3 skills at 100.
Truth to be told: while it's true you can train up to 200 at the moment only few skills have challenges and standards to support a character over 100. Yes, it's true your maxed out character will have very few (and it's an understatement) challenges.

I don't think people see it this way, Eonwind.  To me and I think many others, a fully trained fighting character is one who has maxed at least one or more fighting skills ( ie magic, sword, axe, etc.. ) and some form of armor.

It doesn't matter if you divide that fully trained skill into 80 increments or 10,000 increments. Either way, if it's not maxed, its not done.