Author Topic: Current Player Levels  (Read 2019 times)

Moja Aere

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Re: Current Player Levels
« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2013, 02:13:46 pm »
yep, I'm pretty sure I'm wrong... but are you all really sure that the problem of people fleeing from yliakum is only and exclusively in the game?
wait, okay,  I'm not talking about those leaving bored because they feel like they were RPing in a desert, and RPing in a desert might be quite complex, no matter how many personalities/alts one is able to run.
what I'm trying to say is that I do not think new players go away because they're afraid of the slow development of the character or because they don't see crowds infesting the streets. I think they go away before they even notice these things.
and I think that it might perhaps be partly due to the "confusion" of site/forum/wiki. not that I'm complaining, and don't even think I'm totally right, as I've already said; but from time to time I think that these pages look like they were somehow abandoned/neglected.
there is a huge amount of stuff, and more... there is everything, true, but it's not very easy to consult, and there are old, useless tips close to new useful ones. good posts among boring ones… if someone seeks, then (s)he'll find everything (and then will lose the info again, and then will find it again and so on... ), but if someone takes a quick look and has no patience (
as people might be lazy, or have no much spare time to spend) I think (s)he'll find other games, maybe even less worthy but with more "concentrated" and accessible instructions.

Eatuck

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Re: Current Player Levels
« Reply #31 on: October 25, 2013, 02:32:21 pm »
Eonwind wrote:
Quote
About self sufficiency: this is multiplayer game, some challenges are especially designed for player's grouping. Albeit there are tons of challenges you can defeat single handedly there will be some you won't. Another point: if every player is self sufficient in not time what would be the point of markets, players helping other players and such.
I think sometimes players have the false expectation to reach self sufficiency very early on in every aspect of the game: asking for help to other players is not a crime, many people will be very happy to help ICly and OOCly.

If it is multiplayer game then why haven't the devs been concentrating on retaining players? It doesn't attack the problem to say that I need to play with other players when there is only 30 online total. My solution is to improve the levelling so that it doesn't take an insane amount of work to raise. Now, I don't mean to say to change it so that everyone can max a skill in 8 hours of play time which I think most people here seem to think my argument is. At the games current place, levelling is a huge grind. To make levelling easier while maintaining the challenge of it, is my solution. It is a balance.

I would also like to bring up a solution from the dev meeting that I think Talad mentioned. He mentioned to have more new skills and items and such since after an update the player levels rise a bit. I think this is good idea but from what I've seen it takes forever to get anything new put in the game due to the low level of volunteers. Maybe if the player base was greater, you would get more volunteers. To do this the game needs to be made more enjoyable.



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tman

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Re: Current Player Levels
« Reply #32 on: October 25, 2013, 04:19:04 pm »
I would also like to bring up a solution from the dev meeting that I think Talad mentioned. He mentioned to have more new skills and items and such since after an update the player levels rise a bit. I think this is good idea but from what I've seen it takes forever to get anything new put in the game due to the low level of volunteers. Maybe if the player base was greater, you would get more volunteers. To do this the game needs to be made more enjoyable.

Not exactly a "solution."  But I see what you mean.

The problem is that grinding isn't fun.  Making it easier doesn't make it more fun.  "Being maxed" isn't fun on its own either.  The problem isn't that getting skills is boring.  The problem is that using skills is boring.  If there's more to do with skills, especially at medium levels, then the game will be more fun in general.  Being "maxed" is an entirely separate thing that is totally unnecessary in my opinion.

You can't teach a pig to sing.  It'll never work, and you'll annoy the pig.

Eonwind

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Re: Current Player Levels
« Reply #33 on: October 25, 2013, 04:33:28 pm »
If it is multiplayer game then why haven't the devs been concentrating on retaining players? It doesn't attack the problem to say that I need to play with other players when there is only 30 online total. My solution is to improve the levelling so that it doesn't take an insane amount of work to raise. Now, I don't mean to say to change it so that everyone can max a skill in 8 hours of play time which I think most people here seem to think my argument is. At the games current place, levelling is a huge grind. To make levelling easier while maintaining the challenge of it, is my solution. It is a balance.

the devs try to retain players, but they cannot retain players just like they cannot make new players.
The devs have also made it easier to raise some skills a lot, they made a new tutorial so new players be welcomed better in the game and the tutorial provides a lot of items to get them started. Devs tried to make combat more interesting by making NPCs smarter, having them perform a wide range of attacks and defences and don't tell me a static and dumb NPC is fun to fight with becuase before it was introduced a lot more people complained the opposite.
Did it raise the player's count? Short answer: NO.
When did the player's count raised lately (albeit of a few units, about 10-15)? When events were run quite often, like when there was the invasion, the alchemist events, the ierefal fair, the magic fair and all the others events the GM team run.
But the devs cannot make the game, maintain the server, prepare the events and run the events. So that's where YOU the player's can help: help the GM team prepare an event, do your homework, show your idea, advertise the event in game and in the forum and the devs and the team will help as best as they can to support your event.

I would also like to bring up a solution from the dev meeting that I think Talad mentioned. He mentioned to have more new skills and items and such since after an update the player levels rise a bit. I think this is good idea but from what I've seen it takes forever to get anything new put in the game due to the low level of volunteers. Maybe if the player base was greater, you would get more volunteers. To do this the game needs to be made more enjoyable.

We are working a lot to introduce new stuff in game, at the moment we're working, along with prospects on:
- a lot (more than 10) new quests;
- reorganizing the existing quest chains to make them better and make more clear where to go next;
- improving the NPCs dialogue to better redirect the players to the next trainers
- 11 new spells of varying realms and ways from 1 to 5
- 2 new crafting skills and 1 new skill (lockpicking)
- an expansion of an existing skill
- a new character model (the nolthrir) in the last preparation stage
- many more things I won't even mention because they're still on early stage
- the usual flow of old and new bugfixes

It's a lot of work, for example introducing a new crafting takes at least 4 months if the workflow is not interrupted or there are problems to solve on the way.

A lot of peoples think they are smarter and will be better devs, we're glad to invite them to join us becoming prospects and test themselves. They will find out it takes patience and dedication but if they are dedicated enough they will have the chance to see their work released in game thus adding something new (or at least contributing to the game) and doing something [freely] for all the other people in-game.

Eatuck

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Re: Current Player Levels
« Reply #34 on: October 25, 2013, 05:36:57 pm »
Eonwind, please don't take my post as saying nothing is being developed or that I think I am smarter than the developers. That is far from the truth. I was a little harsh in hitting your argument though. For that I apologize. I really appreciate what you and the other devs have done. I am trying to do the best I can by participating in giving ideas for development to fix a problem I see. If it is not the best solution than at least it promotes discussion to find the optimal solution. Thank you for letting us all know the list of what is getting worked on. It is interesting to know. 
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novacadian

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Re: Current Player Levels
« Reply #35 on: October 25, 2013, 05:46:49 pm »
A lot of peoples think they are smarter and will be better devs, we're glad to invite them to join us becoming prospects and test themselves.

Hopefully things have changed in that regard. A GM approached me some time back to join the team and all the i's were dotted and t's crossed and then it was wait. 2 month, 4 months, then after 9 months the hint was clear. Not sure of the politics involved yet from my experience the call for help is very selective.

Eonwind

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Re: Current Player Levels
« Reply #36 on: October 25, 2013, 06:00:53 pm »
Eonwind, please don't take my post as saying nothing is being developed or that I think I am smarter than the developers. That is far from the truth. I was a little harsh in hitting your argument though. For that I apologize. I really appreciate what you and the other devs have done. I am trying to do the best I can by participating in giving ideas for development to fix a problem I see. If it is not the best solution than at least it promotes discussion to find the optimal solution. Thank you for letting us all know the list of what is getting worked on. It is interesting to know.

Eatuck I'm glad people like you take the chance to discuss about this and other problems and it means they care about the project.  :)
I didn't want to pick on you or anyone else I just wanted to offer a new perspective and a challenge (to help the game) not only to you but to anyone willing to give it a try albeit warning beforehand won't be easy, not to scare away, but because some things can be harder than we may think.
I was glad to have the opportunity to write what we're working on because we're so busy with development, work and RL and we actually lack the time (and a PR department) to update all the players on our progresses.

I just want to say again one thing because I think it's a key point for raising the player's count: we need more events and any player can help with it!
Of course I'm not saying the game is perfect, there are a lot of things that needs to be improved, some mechanics speed up or some maybe removed and we're glad to players pointing out (possibly in a nice way) bugs and what they think it's not working well. Thanks.

Kaerli_Stronwylle

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Re: Current Player Levels
« Reply #37 on: October 26, 2013, 01:31:45 am »
Speaking to the OP's issues with grinding: I suspect the entire skill system will need an overhaul well before we hit 1.0  :sorcerer:

Right now:
1) Stats carry far too much influence on the abilities of a character, which is what makes them so worthless for RP purposes.  Some of my alts are very unduly difficult to play with their base stats due to mana/stamina shortages, frequent inventory overloads, etal.  I'd be OK with a 50-150 scale (or 0-200 if needed); IF skills (weapon, armor, magic) would compensate to the point that a base-stats character with good skills could be truly and consistently effective in PvE with their tools of choice, and give them a chance in mechanics PvP as well.

2) The balance between magic Ways still has a...ways to go.  RW, CW and DW are all fine, more or less: you can use those ways to hunt and defend yourself out of the gate.  BlW is severely gimped by Freeze's uselessness against remotely strong mobs (it has a saving throw that is utterly disproportionate to the spell's status as the first BlW spell a mage learns), and suffers as well from being a DoT focused Way (but this is the lesser of the two problems it faces, as casts that try to apply an already-applied non-stackable effect still give practice, which is O.K. in my book).  BrW requires a minor grinding chore (to realm 2) before you can do any DPS with it whatsoever, and defensive (tanking) magic in PS is not useful on its own (needs a non-zero y-intercept to do any good if you aren't already wearing armor), which should simply be fixed, full stop.  AzW suffers from the same issues with defensive magic as BrW, and is an even more torturous grind as you have to reach realm 3 before you can use it for DPS.  (A good line to remember about this: "War isn't about dying for your country, it's about making the other S.O.B. die for his!" or in MMO terms: "DPS is tank!"; in other words, one of the first principles for MMO combat is that damage-dealing is the only truly essential element to a fight.)

3) Weapon balance still suffers from some issues that have yet to be fully explored, but make life hard for chars who aren't RPing an archer, longsword wielder, or axe wielder.  Mace/hammer users are hurt very hard by a lack of high-damage weaponry (perhaps the / gap needs to be narrowed again, just like it was when things like Silverweaves were nerfed)?  Also, the Q/damage relationship is a good knob to adjust to balance Q300 crafted weapons against looted ones, and the global speed cap at 1.5s/swing hurts melee fighters and to some extent knife users, as 1.0s/swing Melee brings hand-to-hand fighting much closer to parity with baseline (looted) bladed weapons.

4) If body development and some related skills (perhaps repurpose a few) could be developed to a workable point, stats training could go the way of the dodo, to go with 1) above. Ideally, you could deal with carrying capacity + stamina, resilience (HP), and magical energy (Dweomer/Mana) via ingame skills alone.

5) Crafted HA should exist.  Right now, HA wearers suffer an extreme penalty for being stuck with Q50; this shan't be so.  The best way to make it not OP is to do the parallel of 3) and adjust the amount of extra defense higher Q armor gives you.


Some of these I hope are already on their way (crafted HA, improvements to BodyDev), others are more radical (such as a 1.0s/swing global delay cap, dialing back the influence of stats, or giving AzW some sort of weak 1st realm attack spell to give new mages a chance to go anywhere with it: as it stands right now, you basically have to 'bank' PP/tria then invest in up to 40 levels of steady grinding before you are useful in combat with the Way, which is quite silly).  I hope this serves as food for thought though.

Eonwind

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Re: Current Player Levels
« Reply #38 on: October 26, 2013, 03:34:22 am »
A few words:

2) ways balance: a few of the spells we're working on include both a realm 1 BrW AND a realm 1 AW direct damage spells, of course don't expect the latter to be equally powerful as RW direct damage spell but this because azure way is not intended to have big damage dealing spells, its concept is a bit different but at least you will have something to defend yourself with (and train) early on!

3) Weapons balance: when Mace crafting project will be over (we're so close) a good range of blunt weapons, from mace to hammers will be available for crafting including plat steel version.

5) HA: yes it should exists but who is willing to make it? Aside the data problem I see a consistency problem with MA, to clearly speak my mind: MA crafting process is too difficult and too time expensive other than economically unbalanced, I would really like to streamline the crafting process (without remaking it whole which would be a huge waste of time) otherwise the HA crafting which will be ontop MA will be insanely hard to do, and this is something I want to avoid at all costs!

At last the hard time of 1.5s delay is there to avoid players from monopolizing the server resources with too quick weapons/actions, this is NOT something anyone want to (or should) get rid of. It's still to see if that hardcoded value can be tweaked bring a better overall balance with melee.

Eatuck

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Re: Current Player Levels
« Reply #39 on: October 26, 2013, 01:25:19 pm »
Eonwind wrote:
Quote
MA crafting process is too difficult and too time expensive other than economically unbalanced, I would really like to streamline the crafting process (without remaking it whole which would be a huge waste of time) otherwise the HA crafting which will be ontop MA will be insanely hard to do, and this is something I want to avoid at all costs!

I agree completely. MA takes way too long to make (and mouse clicks) and requires a ton of resources. With the 19 stocks to make a 6 piece MA set (25 with 6-1 patterns), I could make 6 long swords and 1 sabre. The resources for MA just don't seem right to me.
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Kaerli_Stronwylle

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Re: Current Player Levels
« Reply #40 on: October 26, 2013, 03:18:59 pm »
A few words:

2) ways balance: a few of the spells we're working on include both a realm 1 BrW AND a realm 1 AW direct damage spells, of course don't expect the latter to be equally powerful as RW direct damage spell but this because azure way is not intended to have big damage dealing spells, its concept is a bit different but at least you will have something to defend yourself with (and train) early on!

3) Weapons balance: when Mace crafting project will be over (we're so close) a good range of blunt weapons, from mace to hammers will be available for crafting including plat steel version.

5) HA: yes it should exists but who is willing to make it? Aside the data problem I see a consistency problem with MA, to clearly speak my mind: MA crafting process is too difficult and too time expensive other than economically unbalanced, I would really like to streamline the crafting process (without remaking it whole which would be a huge waste of time) otherwise the HA crafting which will be ontop MA will be insanely hard to do, and this is something I want to avoid at all costs!

At last the hard time of 1.5s delay is there to avoid players from monopolizing the server resources with too quick weapons/actions, this is NOT something anyone want to (or should) get rid of. It's still to see if that hardcoded value can be tweaked bring a better overall balance with melee.

2) Excellent!  Now all that needs to be addressed is Freeze being well...wimpy against anything bigger than a rat.

3) This'll be nice.  Crafted/looted parity and the / gap between base and top end looted are both good near-future issues once the crafting releases roll out.

5) Yes, crafted MA I heard is a pile of tedium, and making crafted HA worse in that regard would be a vast disservice.  So, rebalancing MA crafting effort before implementing crafted HA (which AIUI would use crafted MA parts as feedstocks in addition to being built upon MA crafting skills-wise) would be acceptable.

As to the delay cap: I agree that we need one there to avoid server monopolization.  The question is 'will 1.0s function there, or will that break more than it fixes?'

Eonwind

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Re: Current Player Levels
« Reply #41 on: October 27, 2013, 05:47:14 am »
2) Excellent!  Now all that needs to be addressed is Freeze being well...wimpy against anything bigger than a rat.

I thought I fixed that problem long ago (along with all the other BlW spells that worked the same way) but maybe there is a bug, the only two only things that should stop a spell are magic resistance and a higher knowledge of the same way that should allow for a saving throws for reduced effects (like taking half damage).

As to the delay cap: I agree that we need one there to avoid server monopolization.  The question is 'will 1.0s function there, or will that break more than it fixes?'

I can't really answer this question. For sure it won't break anything from the rules point of view but a too high server load can cause lags and other problems, but I can't really tell if lowering the value will affect the server so badly.

Rirenil Masdo

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Re: Current Player Levels
« Reply #42 on: November 04, 2013, 10:38:20 pm »
Your player level issues stem from a multitude of reasons.  Most of the longer term, been here for awhile players and devs alike already know of them and have hopefully acknowledged them and will try to continue to work on fixing them.  Most they can with time and effort, but some they won't.

first, my recent port here: http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=41475.msg468044#msg468044  The default UI is clunky, the default controls aren't setup to use the industry standard, and the camera controls need over hauled as well.  Easily rectified with an overhaul to said controls.  Easier said than done by a long shot. 

Second, the world itself.  Vast repetitive openness, with vaguely anything of interest placed in it.  Zone after zone with a smattering of mobs to battle, herbs and rocks to mine, etc.  I see some signage was put in along the paths in an attempt to try and help the player get between major points of interest, but it is very minimal and still easy to get lost.  Some ease of use items have been added to help speed travel, and spice up the zones with camps and things but with the random invisible boundaries, hills and inclines that cause the player to glitch, and the still far too large openness fill with nothing of interest, desire of exploration isn't really promoted to the average player.

the economy is a bit wonky.  price values, gold sinks, crafting materials, the process a player must go about to make items, etc seems far too convoluted and should be better streamlined.  the current system is a work in progress so this wil improve as the game rules are continued to be fleshed out.  some more simpler things that can be easily done is to better indicate to the player where they can go to at least hit a starter mine or herb or what not.  and then from there let them go explore for the higher end things.

the community on the forums and more so the forums themselves.  the whole no spoilers thing is a turn off.  in the end, a person will find what they want to find; rather than shun you should first try to explain politely that the game is rp based and tries to promote in game character interaction to solve its quests, but if the player really wants to know the answer they could just click link X, or even better, the forum would have spoiler tags as most "modern age" forums go which would hide the contained info unless the person clicked it.  the forums need to be kept tidy so players can easily search and find what they are looking for, especially the technical  help areas.  being greeted by a wall of search results, most from years back only puts the person off.  it would also help if the appropriate people in charge of running the forums were given the appropriate access and rights to perform said functions.

some things that cant be "easily" changed would be simple facts like how long the game has been around and yet where its at in its current state after all this time.  this day and age, it seems people are only busier and more demanding than ever.  just look at how often other mmo's or even any type of game in general have to keep updating their finished projects with new features to keep their player base.  there is simply a vast pool of games to keep players occupied nowadays.  far different than what it was even 5 years ago, let alone when PS was one of the sole games out there that offered a free to play community driven, online game.

game advertisement is little to none. no, not paid ads trying to get people to buy something.  simple things like setting up accounts on the indie gaming sites and utilizing community driven resources to help spur better game development, such as steam's greenlight.  getting the word out about the game on the major places gamers these days use to search for games would attract a larger crowd to come try the game out and maybe a few would even what to devote some time to helping the project flourish.  This again, also requires some changes to the mentality certain individuals on the dev team has when it comes to community driven game growth, but that is a completely different subject that could be had which I wont go into here. 

keeping up with the latest gaming creation techniques from say sites like http://www.gamedev.net/page/index.html  and implementing some of them would also go along way.  that also ties in with the engine side of things PS runs off on, and joritt and his team with their crystal space engine i hope already do.  i never really got that all involved on that side of the game much so i can't really say one way or the other how that is currently being addressed.

all in all, times have changed and PS really hasn't evolved along with it, which is the primary reason why player numbers are where they currently are. with a far larger pool of games to choose from that is currently out there, most people don't have as much patience to wait on a game to get to a point they feel it is worth their time to try out and play.  There was a time when PS was a bit ahead or at least on the same level both game mechanic and graphical wise to the other games that were currently out, but now the industry has evolved at a far quicker pace and this project has been left behind. 

But, there will always be those that enjoy the more casual approach, and will come through here and stay for awhile until they grow bored and move on to sometime else, and as they leave, others will take their place. the game will be continuously worked on throughout this, and the hobby project will continue to live on. 

i can look back and say i've over all enjoyed all the time i've spent with the game, the community and being on the dev side of things, and as that is the primary reason why most people play games, so I guess PS is fulfilling its goals, even with its low player counts.
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Adash

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Re: Current Player Levels
« Reply #43 on: November 08, 2013, 02:06:17 am »
Hello Planeshift Members,

I DISAGREE.

I do not feel the game has a lack of balance in roleplaying and ranking skills.  It really depends who you run into and how well the conversation goes between two or more players (feeling their way through and deciding how much or how little roleplayng is needed). 

Planeshift is a great game because I can naturally be myself (my character) and just naturally do what feels right to me.

The end result is that most players will decide what few skills for sure they want MAXED and work hard at them.  Why?  Because honestly, select skills help determine how you feel as your character. I personally (OOC) would feel upset and feel the game would be pointless if it was ONLY about role-playing. 

Roleplaying works well for me ONLY when I eventually (convincingly) let others know what I am proficient at and how I want to contribute these proficiency toward the community in the game world.

GRINDING happens naturally in all games the first year (skills personality establishment) and then slowly the player feels the character is adequately representative and will roleplay his/her chracter more naturally over time.... This is normal and expected.

I think Planeshift is PERFECT just the way it is (allowing players to do what feels comfortable and enjoyable) and freely choose from day to day. 

1.) Someday I log in and all I want to do is focus on my skills
2.) Someday I log in to earn TRIA
3.) Someday i log in just to explore and do strange things (like jump in weird  parts of the map and hope I don't kill myself)
4.) Someday I log in because a 2 hour event is happening or a lot of players are on and you naturally just socialize allday
5.) Someday I log in to collect information to work on a expanding the wiki or making my own shared documents for others to use.
6.) Someday I log in just to chat for literally like 5+ hours (chat Tabs) in the gossip area and see if anything interesting is being said.

................the point is this............Planeshift is fine just the way it is because it doesn't limit how ONE can feel about doing things in the game.  I don't PLAY games that limit my ability to be myself or my character.........that's called a DICTATORSHIP.




So everyone please stop worrying about what others are doing and focus on ONLY what makes you happy in game  :detective:

LigH

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Re: Current Player Levels
« Reply #44 on: November 08, 2013, 02:18:19 am »
:thumbup: You understood.

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