Author Topic: Idea: Stats that are hard to max  (Read 1344 times)

redhound

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Re: Idea: Stats that are hard to max
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2015, 04:58:34 am »
An old topic, but still very-very actual, so let's add my two trias to it:

I totally agree what stats / skills system should encourage specialization (means RP), not generalization (means munchkining). I'd like to see some rules for hard to max [all] stats implemented in the PS. As an example, average experienced character should have about 2 stats maxed - with sane amount of training time spent. Want more? Spend much more time!

Stats training should really go along with skill training - e.g. each skill will have 2 bounded stats: primary & secondary (secondary one trains half of speed of primary).

As of wizards Int, Wil, Cha stats - IMHO it's totally wrong to bind them to the Ways. I think the original idea was to make Purple Mages vs. Maroon Mages vs. NavyBlue Mages... but specialization rules should be applied to the Way skills, and spell sets should be more specialized also. Returning to the point... Int should provide more spell power + some MP (magic Str), Wil - more MP and magic resistance (magic End). Cha... what's it for?.. I thing Spd should provide faster casting...

Аnyway, current PS stats system should be reviewed with characters combat & civil roles ("builds") in mind. The more sane character builds could be produced from basic stats, the better this stats system is. And... make music useful in combat, at last.

It will be nice to have a character sheet with detailed resulting characteristics, e.g.: Max HP, HP regen rate, Max MP,
MP regen rate, Max Phys. stamina, Phys. stamina regen rate, Max Mag. stamina, Mag. stamina regen rate, Base physical resistance, Base magical resistance, Base physical damage, Base magical damage, Phys. chance to hit, Phys. critical chance, Mag. chance to hit, Mag. critical chance, Phys. chance to avoid damage, Mag. chance to avoid damage, Movement speed, Cast speed, etc.

Geoni

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Re: Idea: Stats that are hard to max
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2015, 02:46:29 pm »
The problem that arises when you need to have the stats to back up something within RP but you don't actually have the irl time to spend time grinding, so the need to do so becomes an obstacle for RP. And then with the stats in general, the amount of experience necessary to level up in things needs to be lowered significantly if the game wants to keep a larger playerbase imo, because people are happier when satisfaction is easier and faster to gain - the way to keep people around is through variety in things they can do, and of course that's where development focus needs to stay so that things can be made a little easier on players in the future. But lets say every intended class/specialization got developed and implemented in game and there were even more enemies and quests, but experience was still too grind-necessary - people would be turned off and choose another game that's not too hard but not too easy. It's all very tricky though and at the end of the day you can't make everyone happy.


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cdmoreland

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Re: Idea: Stats that are hard to max
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2015, 05:43:22 pm »
Some skills are harder and some much easier than when I started. I have seen players leave because of the changes. The only ones that haven't been affected by those changes are the rp'ers that never level anything anyway.


Roled

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Re: Idea: Stats that are hard to max
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2015, 12:17:24 am »
There are certainly rpers who level...  just sayin'.  The real issue is not "balance," imltho, it's boredom.
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Kaerli_Stronwylle

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Re: Idea: Stats that are hard to max
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2015, 01:32:29 am »
Here's the thing -- the boredom factor is twofold:

1. It takes quite a bit of grinding just to get to a reasonable level of competence at anything under the current PS system -- it's a far cry better than it was, but it's still enough tedium to dissuade at least some RPers from making their chars mechanically match their RP'ed abilities.

2. The PS combat & progression systems are quite vertical -- and this has a strong negative influence on PvP balance, because then you either have a grind so tedious that newbies/low-time players have no chance to catch up to full-time grinders, or so trivial that everyone is able to max everything with ease, rendering character stats/skills rather useless from a RP standpoint.

Fixing the first item is a matter of building a more engaging overall progression system -- crafting training has made some progress in this regard, but still doesn't quite have the degree of back-and-forth dialog that I'd want to see out of a RP game.  Combat, though, takes advantage of none of this -- instead, the philosophy is "here's a sword, go have fun" with the associated dismal results.  Why can't you have quests involved with learning how to use a weapon?  It'd be a good opportunity to help RPers learn how to play their character more accurately when it comes to combat, for one.

The second item, though, is where the real problems with balance lie.  New players are forced into a severely uphill grind so that their characters can do what they want them to do, while veterans get split into the "haves" and the "have-nots" by the amount of time they can invest into grinding their characters further, rendering the combat mechanics almost unusable for RP.  Fixing this isn't a matter of specialization, either -- trying to bind a character's specialty to some innate facet of a character leads to players spawning numerous alts in order to cover all the roles they wish to fill, which creates an opportunity cost as now they find themselves "caught out" playing the wrong character for the situation, or unable to participate in a RP as they don't have the ability to manage things like disposable characters due to their slots already being occupied by specialist alts.

The solution I see, though, is to take something of an opposite tack to redhound -- instead of focusing on the red herring of specialization-via-stats-and-skills in a vertical system, make it so that veterans don't progress vertically alone, but laterally as well -- instead of forcing everyone to perfect their swordsmanship and become demonic, flashing brutes in order to use the mechanics in combat in a reasonable way, make it so that veteran characters are more versatile, not necessarily better at one thing.  That way, new players or low-timers can take a specialization-driven approach in order to achieve a set goal quickly, while veterans who need a training sink can have their characters diversify their capabilities.

"But wait", you may say, "isn't that a recipe for 'perfect at everything' Mary-Sues everywhere?"   It may sound as such at first, but there's a solution to that -- equipment.  Make it so that you can't carry every glyph under the Azure Crystal on you at the same time.  Make it so that we have to make intelligent tradeoffs about what weapons our characters carry into battle.  Make it so that there's more than one way to skin an Ulber, so to speak -- giving room for different characters to favor different solutions to the same mechanical problem.

Last but not least -- the entire stats system is based on a rather faulty distributional premise, atop having far too much influence on character performance.  Just because you're stronger than everyone else doesn't automatically make you a super-warrior, nor does stubbornness alone turn you into a mighty mage.  Letting statistics primarily (and subtly ;) influence how quickly a character can learn things is a much more sensible approach, as it allows the skill system to "even out" the balance differences between races and character creation backgrounds, instead of accentuating it.

redhound

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Re: Idea: Stats that are hard to max
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2015, 01:30:12 am »
I'm really not against having just one character with all maxed stats and using it for all RP means. Think of that as of "munchking build". So, to encourage specialization is not need to deny generalization. Totally agree what young specialists should have a way to compete with generalist veterans.

Bonifarzia

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Re: Idea: Stats that are hard to max
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2015, 03:17:07 am »
Oh, so one of my old suggestions for rules (yes, there are several) got bumped with a manifold of different ideas. Just as a note, the concept here was about stats in the strict sense of primary attributes: Str, Agi, End, Int, Wil, Cha.

At the time I have opened the topic, it was not meant to make regular character progression any harder. Rather, I wanted to stimulate a discussion about what we consider a trained or progressed character. Back then and still today, it seems common sense that a character will just "max out" all of those stats once a sufficient amount of PP is accumulated (even more so since skill training was decoupled from PP). I still have the feeling that such base attributes could give some fair and useful background for character diversity and elasticity, while keeping the free-to-learn-anything-you-like attitude for the skill system... a system which can be discussed elsewhere, just like the entire progression system with all of its different aspects.

ereale

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Re: Idea: Stats that are hard to max
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2015, 02:58:32 pm »
Stats are not needed for role play. The skill of your imagination is all that is required for role play. Stats don't matter at all.
For PVP, characters need to be able to reach the same level as the more experienced veterans, without spending years grinding. There has to be a close to level playing field for PVPers, regardless of whether or not they RP. When PVPers have similar skill that they can all reach without ridiculous amounts of time and effort, the PVP is more competitive and the fighting becomes less about what stats you have and more about how you use them(The skill of the player). There is absolutely no point for anyone, who only RPs and does not want to PVP to have high stats. I see no necessary connection between stats and RP. I'm sure there are RPers who like to have amazing stats, or stats that suit their character, but it is not necessary unless they want to PVP frequently. Imagination is all that is necessary for them. I know I will meet arguments on this, but this is my opinion.
But PVP does have a necessary connection to stats, not all of them obviously, but to the basic stats and the weapon stats the connection is unavoidable and undeniable. PVPers, some who RP, some who don't, deserve a fairly even playing(fighting) field, considering all the grinding they have to do just to make sure they are not at a massive disadvantage to their opponent. The best PVP fights I have been a part of and watched in PS have always been between players who are virtually maxxed out in any skill that is useful to their chosen fighting method.  The PVPer will always strive for the most effective fighting skills and you see this in all games that have PVP mechanics. Whatever kills other players effectively, is what every PVPer wants and will focus on getting/having/achieving, to be fair to themselves and each other.
Furthermore, to be fair to themselves and each other, all frequent PVPers will strive for full sets of enchanted armor, weapons, amulets, etc. and whatever gives them an edge against their opponent. These things are hardly needed for RP, unless you intend to choose to RP your char or your guild into real actual PVP. Which plenty of people have done or still do. Pure RPers who like to roll their dice to decide their battle outcomes, or just pre-design the outcomes of their RP conflicts, from my point of view, have no reason to care. :devil:

cdmoreland

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Re: Idea: Stats that are hard to max
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2015, 08:25:47 pm »
The problem I find with those that want to rp fights and magic is that most have no idea what the mechanics of the game support. Waesed is maxed in all stats, maxed in all armor, 123 in sword and wielding platinum sabres, a crystal way master and full adept (over 90) in all the other ways. I think most rp'ers don't know that the damage done with both magic and weapons is random so that there is no reason for rolling dice and such for us grinders. When PvP'ers fight either can win just on the whim of the computer.

Garris Shrike

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Re: Idea: Stats that are hard to max
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2015, 01:11:28 pm »
What bugs me is that it's now 400/200.

Just for PLers to have something to do?

Gosh dang. That makes leveling a character SO hard. I tried it with Mahk, and it's just a waste of time. I like having stats to kill beasties that intrude on my RPs, but not if I'm going to invest 2-400 hours into it.

That is TOTALLY just me though. There are certainly hardcore people who do LOVE that stuff, right?
Garris Shrike.
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Kaerli_Stronwylle

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Re: Idea: Stats that are hard to max
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2015, 06:27:38 pm »
What bugs me is that it's now 400/200.

Just for PLers to have something to do?

Gosh dang. That makes leveling a character SO hard. I tried it with Mahk, and it's just a waste of time. I like having stats to kill beasties that intrude on my RPs, but not if I'm going to invest 2-400 hours into it.

That is TOTALLY just me though. There are certainly hardcore people who do LOVE that stuff, right?
Eh, where are you getting the 2-400hours from? It sounds like you're assuming that you still need to buy training for skills (hint: you don't)

Rigwyn

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Re: Idea: Stats that are hard to max
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2015, 06:58:47 pm »

Its considerably easier than it used to be, but if your primary focus is on RP, then you will likely opt out of training in order to better utilize your time. This is off topic, but we spoke in the past about the possibility of having an "rp character" that has enough stats to get around, carry things heavier than a feather without getting exhausted and survive surprise attacks by most aggressive NPCs but without the ability to use those stats for pvp. If being weak is still an issue, then it might be a good topic for another thread.

cdmoreland

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Re: Idea: Stats that are hard to max
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2015, 08:59:18 pm »
A couple of years ago PP's were reworked to slow progression. Rumor had it that the powers that be wanted it to take 3 years to max stats.

I'm not a fan of text-based rp but I do rp. Waesed and Ellis have escorted many weak players to Oja and other places. With the advent of aggressive mobs there was a need for it but, as usual for me, no one wanted to get involved in it. Being a good guy/gal is not in vogue in PS.

Lets face the fact that one may be a great rp'er but that is no help when you come face-to-face with a maulberlord or neoten. Typing /me dodges or some such nonsense will still get you a trip to the DR.  ;D

jowifi

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Re: Idea: Stats that are hard to max
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2015, 11:18:03 am »
Has any thought been given to limiting by race how high a character's physical stats can go, similar to how they are set at character creation?  For example, maybe a Lemur's max strength is 200 while a Stonehammer can reach 400, a Kran's max agility would be 200 compared to an Enkidukai's 400.   Ylians get capped at 300 for all three stats, etc.   The Starfire Tourney has an interesting method for determining how the participants' physical stats are set.  I have a harder time making the argument that mental stats should also be limited, but it might work over a smaller range.

Another option would be to let the player decide what the character's max in each stat would be.  Give the player 2000 points to distribute among the six stats.  The character would still start at the levels currently applied at creation and would have to work its way up to whatever cap the player set.