PVP styles

[bilbous]

Don't worry about it. $.02

[Timil Deeps]

Don't worry about it. $.02

Make that $.04, because I second that sentiment. Asking is often the best way to learn, if/when there are people around willing to answer kindly and in kind (which the majority of posters to this thread have done, methinks.)

[Rigwyn]

*shrugs*  I don't think you did anything wrong. My comment was directed at volki's comment. I think one of the hardest parts to rp is getting along with each other.

[Kaerli_Stronwylle]

As one of the other RPers that was involved in the event that precipitated this thread, I'd like to add another suggestion, aimed specifically at grappling moves:

Instead of simply naming a grapple, hold, or jointlock, describe what it physically does to the other character that incapacitates them in some way.  For instance (borrowing Prreta for demonstration purposes), instead of "*Kaerli tries to throw Prreta into a chicken-wing lock now that she has a hold of her right wrist", it is better to say "*Kaerli tries to force Prreta's right arm to fold up beyond its normal limits, attempting to cause her wrist to hyper-flex as well in the process as her paw tucks in under her right armpit", as the latter actually explains why the maneuver is effective (the hyper-flexed elbow and wrist joints in the example) instead of leaving the character's player having to make an assumption about what the move does and how they can or can't get out of it.

[Timil Deeps]

I think another bit of advice I'd suggest is avoid jargon as much as possible in RP'd PVP, or else be willing to pause and explain (perhaps parenthetically) what unique terms mean.

For instance, I know a thing or two about fencing, so if i want to throw in bit of fencing terminology to add flavor to the RP, I should be ready and willing to explain what those terms mean, and what the implications of the move might be.

For example (assuming that the trainingdummy mentioned below is holding a mockup of a weapon):

* Timil Deeps aims his saber at the trainingdummy's torso in quadrant 6, and initiates a beat-coupe'-lunge.

Someone who has taken fencing should know that Timil aimed at the dummy's chest, near its shoulder, on whatever side the dummy was holding its weapon, and that Timil tapped the dummy's weapon with his sword, brought his sword quickly up and over the opposing blade, and then used his rear leg to propel himself forward order to strike the dummy's chest.  However, I'm guessing most people would struggle to understand what action was described by all that jargon i used.

The nice thing is that once a bit of jargon is explained to someone, you can use it with that person as shorthand in place of the lengthy, detailed description of the action.  (For the moment, I won't address the problems my example poses in terms of tempo/timing, right-of-way, and the fact that it is in fact a compound action that might require finding out how an opponent will react at each step of the process!)

So yes, it can be a dilemma: use jargon and risk having people not understand what you're describing, or invest in the time (and possible tedium) of deciding the level of detail you wish/need to use (I prefer sufficient rather than exhaustive), and then typing everything out...

But with patience and grace, the end result may not just be one Good RP, but future Great RPs!

Just my further $0.02 + tax & tip.

~Timil~

[Prreta]

Now knowing the details of the sword attack I *might* be able to formulate a move against it. But with the grappling move Kaerli described,  I am at a bit of a loss.

How can someone new to these skills respond in any meaningful way that is satisfying to the pvp-detailed crowd? Assume the character knows more about such things than the player, from the perspective of accomplished claw-fighter and moderately skilled knife-fighter.

[Timil Deeps]

Here's an example of a principle that might be useful for PVP RP, among gracious parties:

When the developers of the videogame tie-in for the first (2002) Spider-Man movie were designing the mechanics of his web-swinging power, they ran into a conceptual problem: Some of spidey's airborne battles would likely take place above the skyline of the city, so what the heck would his swinging webs be sticking to?

The answer was: "The same thing we see them stick to most often in the comics: Nothing!"  Spidey usually just shoots a web up into the air and takes off, and we suspend disbelief and accept that it just works; We implicitly assume there's a taller building somewhere in the direction that he wants to swing, even when he does this from atop the highest buildings around (granted, sometimes he aims a bit lower, to help with realism). They get away with handwaving it because it's expedient to the story (and I think also because it falls within the Rule of Cool, but that's beside the point).

So, returning to PS-relevant examples, if a character ICly has sufficient skills as described above (knowledge/experience/instict of clawfighting and knife-fighting), then I think it's reasonable to suspend disbelief and assume she might have some idea of a move to make, even if her player does not necessarily know offhand what that might be.

I'll ask the reader: At that point, would it be reasonable for one to OOCly ask someone for an idea to try (probably not the opponent unless they're a very good sport), or just see if said opponent will meet one halfway with a bit of gracious handwaving, to keep things moving and OOCly amiable?

~Timil~

P.S.: A bonus thought for the day: "People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care."

[Volki]

@Timil, as far as I know Prreta's character has no fighting experience. If she was heavily scarred and wore armor, I might give her the benefit of the doubt. But she's a fenki who wears dresses and practices some magic.

@Prreta, I didn't name any "moves" because I knew you wouldn't recognize any of them.

In these logs, Sarras had her arms around your character's torso, her neck and her shoulder (wrapped around). And she was behind your character's back, which is the worst position for your character to be in. However, Sarras's hold on Prreta was not perfect. It could be broken. One of Prreta's arms was completely free and she still had her lower body to work with.

(23:06:28) Prreta struggles for a moment to regain her footing, then attempts to slip from Sarras grasp by dropping and rolling away.
(23:07:17) Sarras drops her weight and tries to sweep a foot under Prreta, opposite the direction of her roll, to knock her over.

I imagined that this would end with both of our characters on the ground. To me, your actions seemed rushed, as you assumed you would have been able to escape and thus added a second action to your post (the roll). I wasn't sure how I should react to this.

(23:09:32) Prreta runs into Sarras leg, then moves quickly to hit the dermorian in the baclk of the knee, attempting to knock her to a seat
(23:09:45) Prreta says: "Let go of me!" she growls

Maybe you thought your character had broken Sarras's hold. But then I don't see why she would have demanded to be let go. I'm not sure how you would hit the back of Sarras's knee when she was already behind you.

(23:11:13) Sarras's leg buckles, but her arms are already around the fenki's neck. She falls straight down and tries to shove her weight on top of Prreta to pin the wild woman.

Here I tried to reconcile between the actions. Since I thought Prreta should have fallen already, I let us both go down.

(23:11:15) Kaerli looks to Prreta gravely "Just what started this?"
(23:11:29) Kaerli then looks to Nabilia, then to Darryel
(23:11:55) Nabilia says: I mentioned something about Celroc and Alran and she flew off the handle again. This fenki's insane....
(23:12:27) Darryel coughs a lot, suffering from the overuse of magic, not giving a proper answer.
(23:12:47) Nabilia says: Hey, you alright, Darryel? Did she attack you?
(23:13:30) Kaerli growls "Great..." then looks to Darryel "You alright?"
(23:14:59) Darryel says "No... she didn't....*cough*.... I'm exhausted from my training and using magic again..."
(23:15:03) Prreta says: [sarras, I don't think you can have your hands around my neck, be blocking me from rolling away and at the same time be bringing your wieght down onto me unless I"m broken in have AND my moves had zero effect?]
(23:15:18) Prreta says: [broken in half]
(23:16:07) Sarras says: [one arm is around your neck, the other arm is around your shoulder. it's a grappling move.]
(23:16:51) Darryel says: [roll a di... wait wrong game ]
(23:16:51) Prreta says: I understand that part just fine - it's the part after that where I dropped below your hold...that would have had to have zero effect
(23:16:59) Prreta says: [sorry, forgot []'s ]
(23:17:17) Prreta says: [I'm not sure how to respond to it because I can't reconcile all three of those things]
(23:18:06) Sarras says: [she followed you by dropping her center of mass... you didn't do anything to counter the lock so i assumed she still had control]
(23:19:18) Prreta says: [and you swept a foot under her to stop her rolling out of the hold without loosing your balance and...you know what, nvrmind.]
(23:19:29) Sarras says: [...martial arts bro]
(23:19:38) Prreta growls "If you don't let go of me right now I am going to bite your arm off!"
(23:19:48) Sarras says: [you don't lose your balance during a sweep... at least you shouldn't]
(23:20:09) Kaerli says: [I'm with Sarras on this one: you really shouldn't lose your balance on a leg sweep. Sarras' CM would have been over her stance for the entire time]
(23:20:39) Prreta says: [and my attempt to roll out of the lock?]
(23:20:53) Darryel says: [I don't know much about martial arts... sorry ]
(23:21:05) Sarras straightens one leg, the other awkwardly trapped uner her body. "Go ahead," she grumbles, expecting someone else to intervene before her arm is eaten.
(23:21:11) Prreta says: [nevermind. go on. I've plenty of martial arts training mhyself but I'm not going to make this ridiculous situation worse]

[bilbous]

well now. it all sounds conflicting. "regain her footing" leverage her attacker upwards,  "dropping and rolling away" sounds like leaving her feet and driving her upper torso and/or her hips to the ground in an attempt to pivot on them ... the roll.

"drops her weight" seems logical to counter "regain her footing"  but the sudden dropping subsequent to the "regain her footing" would seem to cause "drops her weight" to over-compensate along with the twisting action of the roll, driving both to the ground leaving no opportunity for the foot sweep. Not necessarily though, but if the person being held is heavier and of equivalent strength then it would seem likely that a period of rolling would ensue during which the hold would be weakened but possibly not broken.

It is very hard to parse these actions on the fly so it is no wonder confusion is generated. There is also the very real possibility that how I have parsed them is incorrect. Certainly what each participant meant by their descriptions of their actions is subject to interpretation.

[Prreta]

Thank you for what seems a civil response Sarras, however I was hoping to spare the community from the details that they probably have no appetite for and which I think could have best been handled privately.

I was hoping to keep this thread one about general principles so that *IF* I do engage in future PvP roleplay, I am better prepared to handle it AND if necessary to gracefully disengage without resorting to being untouchable or being totally dominated.

I have admitted that I made errors. I think an objective viewing by a discerning reader will reveal that we could both have done better. There were also other messages --not included here-- in which I stated I had no problem with losing because Prreta isn't a grappler and i requested additional clarification to the moves. As the experienced pvp roleplayer you had the opportunity to teach..which I felt like was totally lost with the appeal to your own authority. After that point Sarras totally dominated Prreta because I got frustrated and gave up trying.

Several things from the above discussions come to my mind as possibly making the whole encounter better :
- we should have agreed OOC to the encounter taking place at all.
- we should have OOC established relative levels of skill of our characters and ourselves
- we should have used Kaerli's STA approach
- I should have not gotten flustered.

Oh, by the way - She yelled a lot because she's a vocal character and you were trying to restrain her. Also, Prreta's fangs and claws are capped, so I never expected she would be able to do any harm to you through your armour, or even if you had no armour...it was her posturing and me still trying to make the best IC experience possible despite my OOC confusion and frustration.

Now, Please, Do you have any constructive general principles to add?

[Volki]

There were also other messages --not included here-- in which I stated I had no problem with losing because Prreta isn't a grappler

(23:23:23) [Tell] You tell Prreta: [sorry. i know rping grappling/wrestling and stuff is difficult, but sarras probably has years and years of training on prreta anyway. this is totes her thing.]
(23:24:36) [Tell] Prreta tells you: [I have no problem with it --even the losing, because Prreta is not a grappler-- if my moves aren't totaly ignored. that's what I have a problem with]

and i requested additional clarification to the moves.

I don't recall that.

As the experienced pvp roleplayer you had the opportunity to teach..

Every time I try to teach someone in this game I'm met with belligerence. So I don't try anymore.

which I felt like was totally lost with the appeal to your own authority.

What?

After that point Sarras totally dominated Prreta because I got frustrated and gave up trying.

Dominated? Prreta was being restrained. You can't stab at someone in a tavern and expect to get away with it when you're surrounded by experienced fighters.

Several things from the above discussions come to my mind as possibly making the whole encounter better :
- we should have agreed OOC to the encounter taking place at all.
- we should have OOC established relative levels of skill of our characters and ourselves
- we should have used Kaerli's STA approach
- I should have not gotten flustered.

I don't think agreements should be made in order to roleplay. When your character became violent, you agreed to participate with anyone who might intervene. I'm also not very fond of OOC discussions, unless the roleplay is of a more serious nature. It should be made obvious from a character's actions what he or she is capable of.

Also, Prreta's fangs and claws are capped, so I never expected she would be able to do any harm to you through your armour, or even if you had no armour...it was her posturing and me still trying to make the best IC experience possible despite my OOC confusion and frustration.

I did not know that her fangs were capped, and I don't know what that means. I did mention that Sarras was wearing vambraces.

[Cairn]

Random note, if you haven't gathered it from Bilbous' parsing:

Don't try and explain things through imprecise body motions. If you don't think the point will get across, try something like this:

Ex. 1: "Wulfar pivoted on his left hip, bringing his elbows up and toward's Mariana's nose."

Can also be explained much more easily as: "Wulfar turned to the left quickly, trying to break Mariana's nose with his elbows." Or, ""Wulfar turned to the left quickly, trying to hit Mariana's nose hard with his elbows put together."

Sure, it's not pretty and poetic, like you all like. Get over it. I can do poetic, but not many people appreciate it. Text walls are only good if you're with those who like to do them too.

While still imprecise, it leaves both players with no doubt as to the intent of the move. Let your intent be known - are you escaping, retaliating, trying to cause damage? Body movements are nothing without intent, especially in a game where it's already easy to get confused.

@Timil:

I am basically echoing you, I know. I am also simply adding on that instead of using Jargon, and instead of over-describing your moves, try and make them as simple and clear as possible, given the action. Thanks for your tremendous post, friend

[Mariana Xiechai]

* Mariana Xiechai senses random and inexplicably violent vibes   

[Timil Deeps]

{Respectful snippage follows:}

While still imprecise, it leaves both players with no doubt as to the intent of the move. Let your intent be known - are you escaping, retaliating, trying to cause damage? Body movements are nothing without intent, especially in a game where it's already easy to get confused.
{Respectful snip}
Instead of using Jargon, and instead of over-describing your moves, try and make them as simple and clear as possible, given the action.

Cairn, old friend, you are not merely echoing me... What you have in fact done is taken my q150 rambling and refined it into a finest q300 concept: Communicate your intentions! 

I forthwith propose that the "STA" model be upgraded to "STAwI": "Side*, Type**, Aim, with Intention"!
*(or Stance)     **(or Technique)

Thus, here might be an example of telling the simple STAwI of an action:

* Timil Deeps swings his left fist at Scirocco's jaw, hoping to stun the menki long enough to allow the ylian to escape.

By communicating the intention of an action, it provides helpful clues (or cues) for the other player(s) to go on. And if you DONT want to explicitly communicate a char's REAL intention, you can at least communicate what their intention might appear to be, such as:

* Timil Deeps strolls up to his old friend Wulfar and raises his left hand as if to pat the menki on the shoulder...

 

[Kaerli_Stronwylle]

@Timil, as far as I know Prreta's character has no fighting experience. If she was heavily scarred and wore armor, I might give her the benefit of the doubt. But she's a fenki who wears dresses and practices some magic.

That is an assumption you could have double-checked OOCly ahead of time; I generally prefer to do so myself, especially when dealing with a character who's a total unknown quantity.  (BTW: IME, Prreta has good instinct, but is still developing in terms of IC combat skill, based on Kaerli's interactions with her, which include a RPed sparring match.)  In a world dripping with magic, btw, I wouldn't say its safe to assume that simply because someone doesn't wear armor at all times or chooses not to bear scars, that they have never been through any sort of combat training.  Remember, also, that there is a very significant mental aspect to combat...and most offensively-minded mages need this mental training just as much as a weapon-swinger will.