Author Topic: Eugenics  (Read 21656 times)

bilbous

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Re: Eugenics
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2014, 03:10:33 pm »
Eugenics is something that has always and will always be practiced. Some people are not capable of letting people live or die on their own. They must choose for the other. Whether it is the warlord who slaughters the neighboring village, the mobster who kills you and all your family members or the doctor who saves the life of baby too deformed to live more than 15 minutes on its own.

Anyway, how did Eugene get such a bad rap? My great-uncle was a perfectly nice man despite tricking the kids into believing that that pine tree was really a peanut tree.

Aramara Meibi

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Re: Eugenics
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2014, 04:29:02 pm »
A feral cat that lives under our neighbors house had a litter of four kittens a few weeks ago. We've been putting food out for them, but one of the kittens, the runt, isn't getting any of the food because her bigger and stronger siblings take it all for themselves. I'm not the first to say this, but there seems to be a survival of the fittest function written into the laws of nature. To be so ego-entangled to believe that you can judge what is fit or unfit for the the survival of the species, that your judgement is better than nature's, is a sin.

We spoke on this in my abnormal psych class, about how it used to be standard practice in this country and others to sterilize the 'degenerates' (the parlance of the time for handicapable people). Still, today, there's an organization, I believe in California, that pays drug addicted women a stipend to sterilize themselves. The intention there is prevent drug addicted babies being born into a life of impoverishment, but the means are slightly askew in my opinion. There is no effort to help these women overcome their habits and addictions and improve their situations. Instead it's like, "Here's some money, spend it on drugs, we don't care, just don't have babies."

There's a reason why I don't drink tap water, why I don't buy gmo produce or processed and packaged foods. But, I guess whether or not Eugenics is a global political policy or not doesn't really matter, because when the new madrid fault line slips and sets off the yellowstone supervolcano, nature will take care of us in her own way.
all blessings to the assembled devotees.

poezza

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Re: Eugenics
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2014, 06:48:35 pm »
From all the places, we're discussing eugenics here lol

Anyway, it is happening on a global scale; think about sterilization of people who have Down syndrome for instance. Although concerns in this specific case are understandable, we are still talking about people and this doesn't always happen voluntary.
Either way, it will always be a controversy...

Anyway have fun with the topic, I'm gonna try and stay out of this one  ;)

Jawir

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Re: Eugenics
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2014, 07:30:37 pm »
Each time we use the "morality" argument first of all it should be good to define what morality is, why we think it's good and what consequences it has.
Speaking about eugenetics, think to diabetes: why people think that curing diabetes with insulin injections is morally better than curing it (supposing for this example that's scientifically possible) with eugenetics? In the long term insulin injections have many side effects and I know about people living an almost normal, but painful (loss of limbs and sort of dementia* induced by liver disease caused by the cure) life.
If our judgement shouldn't be better than the nature's one, why we practice medicine at all?
If we live following nature's rules you can be sure a lot of diseased people will not reach an age suitable for reproduction, Down syndrome included.
Should we put in discussion if our morality is totally fault proof?
Is our morality heavily influenced by religion?
If so, how many lives have been saved by prayers?
What today we think as being morally controversial perhaps in the future will be simple routine.
Think what Demikhov did: it's horrible, but probably without those experiments even transplants could be thought to be impossible today.

* I don't know exactly how to define that, but it's caused by a periodic "poisoning" of their blood because their liver isn't able to purify the blood from ammonia produced by proteins.

Illysia

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Re: Eugenics
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2014, 05:00:35 am »
I think one problem with looking at it so dispassionately is that it makes it harder to see one's self as being in that position while such consequential issues are being decided over your head. I think that the fact that we are talking about people and not chairs requires a less detached view.

While I do view it as an ultimately moral question, I think this eugenics thing is, in it's simplest terms, allowing dramatically important decisions about your life to be made over your head by people who do not have your condition and are making general suppositions to justify taking one position or another. That sounds like a bad idea waiting to happen. Yes, the same argument can probably be made for surgery but genetics is far more complicated than surgery and surgery is plenty complicated.

But to answer the questions:

Each time we use the "morality" argument first of all it should be good to define what morality is, why we think it's good and what consequences it has.

There is no one definition, so you can't necessarily "define" it like it is simply a word. Morality will vary from person to person, and sometimes, from person to person it will be a contradictory term. But, regardless of what label is put on it, we can more or less agree on the fact that there is concern as to the outcome of Eugenics likely on the basis of compassion towards fellow humans.

Speaking about eugenetics, think to diabetes: why people think that curing diabetes with insulin injections is morally better than curing it (supposing for this example that's scientifically possible) with eugenetics? In the long term insulin injections have many side effects and I know about people living an almost normal, but painful (loss of limbs and sort of dementia* induced by liver disease caused by the cure) life.

Producing insulin and injecting poses less of a risk than playing around with genes that are still in the process of being researched. Think of tampering with genes like it is archery. You can stick a bow and arrow into anyone's hands and make an attempt at hitting the target dead in the center; however, it is only the experienced of someone that knows what they're doing that can increase the likelihood that the target will be hit in the center with as few injuries or casualties as possible. This is not to say that it would be impossible to one day safely tamper with the genes, but even using thoughtful and careful medical gene therapies can be risky now.

If our judgement shouldn't be better than the nature's one, why we practice medicine at all?

We practice medicine because of compassion and need. We cannot stand to suffer any more than necessary and we, hopefully, cannot stand to watch others suffer. However, there is a difference between coercing someone into being sterilized and giving someone a medicine that may or may not harm them when all other options have been exhausted and they have full disclosure. While the same arguments against Eugenics can be used against medicine, it is not always an equivalent scenario.

If we live following nature's rules you can be sure a lot of diseased people will not reach an age suitable for reproduction, Down syndrome included.

Without special intervention all people regardless of health can potentially die from a variety of issues even if they are very healthy and strong. Think of a tsunami scraping everyone out to sea and drowning them. But, as soon as you start tampering with your life as it would be without technological and societal advances you are not "following nature's rules". Once you have medicine, start changing the very nature of the food you grow, try to change or resist the weather, so on and so forth you are not living by "nature's rules" and it seems out of place to try to bring nature back into the discussion. Either you want to live in simple dwellings subject to whatever nature throws at you or you want to try to "better" your situation. Then the discussion comes full circle back to morality and definitions of "better".

Should we put in discussion if our morality is totally fault proof?

I'm not sure what you mean here.

Is our morality heavily influenced by religion?
If so, how many lives have been saved by prayers?

Even when morality is influenced by religion, there is more to the discussion than "can the illness be prayed away?". If you have a higher power that says you must eliminate the weak and preserve the strong, that can serve as the basis for a morality. The same is true if a higher power says the strong must protect the weak. For any religiously based morality, you must take it, as all the other definitions, on it's own specific merit as religions cannot accurately be lumped together any more than people can.

Yet, for what it is worth there are people who claim to be saved by prayers and always have been since before we developed sophisticated medicines, and despite how harsh the world can be, some people survived long enough for us to get here and to develop medicines. The issues remain, however, "what standard of morality do you use" and "how does it apply to eugenics."

What today we think as being morally controversial perhaps in the future will be simple routine.
Think what Demikhov did: it's horrible, but probably without those experiments even transplants could be thought to be impossible today.

Agreed, it's horrible, but the wiki at least only mentioned him working on animals, not humans. While I don't like the idea of testing on animals, that is a completely different moral argument. Yet, if he were working on humans and not animals, I would rather not have access to the medicine we have now than subject someone to stuff like that. For instance, modern medicine apparently owes much to the Nazi's but given a choice, I would rather do without than have those poor people experimented upon as they were.

Rigwyn

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Re: Eugenics
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2014, 09:48:05 am »

If morality is subjective - if its something that differs from person to person, then what place does it have in being used in deciding if eugenics should be used? If morality is truly subjective, then it's just an opinion. It has no place here.

If we know for a fact that prohibiting people with certain genetic illnesses would decrease the number of further occurrences of said disease in future populations, then we would at least be doing something logical. We would be making a decision that rooted in fact and not in opinion.

Do I think its likely for such a program to work?

Probably not in a free country like the US, but quite possibly in a country where you have a dictatorship or some authoritative government that has the power ( and the submissive mindset of its people ) to carry out such a program.

Would we necessarily be better off with a healthier population?

Let's say such a program was set up in China. The rule is, to reproduce, you must have a genetic screening and government approved papers confirming your fitness and permitting you to reproduce. Upon child birth, a second round of genetic testing is performed - just to ensure that the offspring's DNA matches that of its registered parents. ( Those who try to cheat the system are swiftly deported )

Given China's population, would a stronger, healthier population overwhelm their country sooner than one of average health and average lifespans? ( By overwhelm, I'm talking about overpopulation )

Would fewer sick people to help in an advanced country slow progress in medical advancement?

Jawir

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Re: Eugenics
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2014, 10:32:11 am »
Just to point out, with eugenics I don't mean sterilization or such practices, that's quite an old eugenics concept. Here I'm thinking more at "switching a couple of genes" into our DNA to prevent those genes from expressing if they are tied with some diseases. I know I'm quite optimistic and it sounds more like science fiction for now, but a day perhaps....  :)

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Quote from: Jawir on 13 September 2014, 19:30:37

    Should we put in discussion if our morality is totally fault proof?

I'm not sure what you mean here.
Here I mean:"how can we be sure that our morality is right?"

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We practice medicine because of compassion

That's the point! In my opinion all the morality discussion regards compassion. Should eugenics a practice to be included in medicine as surgery and so on? Is compassion a universally accepted positive trait? I mean, we developed compassion as an evolutionary trait I think... at least observing the entire animal realm we can say some animals have compassion some others not. It seems, at least to me, that compassion is developed because our succes, as a species, is no more bind to the contribution that each of it's members can bring to the group/society. Some others "more useful" members will provide for themselves and the "unlucky" ones. But this process can't continue forever, because the more "the unlucky" traits are propagated the more the overall "genetics quality" will drop, until a point where you cannot sustain this trend. So, probably, compassion is related to the success/wealth of a group/society and for this reason morality changes over time. So, probably, a day, when it will be necessary, eugenics could be considered morally right.


Illysia

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Re: Eugenics
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2014, 11:35:48 am »

If morality is subjective - if its something that differs from person to person, then what place does it have in being used in deciding if eugenics should be used? If morality is truly subjective, then it's just an opinion. It has no place here.

An opinion is that red is a bad color for women over 45 to wear as lipstick. Not harming your fellow being may be subjective in that harm can be defined in several ways, but it is does not become an irrelevant opinion simply because people place the line in slightly different places. Once you relegate morality to an irrelevant opinion, you relegate humanity to animals. Once you do that, you might as well give up on betterment of all types because someone out there can find an argument that anything is just a matter of someone's opinion. However, in recognition that at times even well meaning ideas can lead to great harm, we try to steer clear of getting in too far over our heads which is why morality and ethics come up with eugenics. It is not simply a matter of "can we?" but also a matter of "should we?", "what will happen if we do?", and "do we have a right?"

If we know for a fact that prohibiting people with certain genetic illnesses would decrease the number of further occurrences of said disease in future populations, then we would at least be doing something logical. We would be making a decision that rooted in fact and not in opinion.

Rooting something in fact is not a talisman against making bad decisions. In fact, the Nazi's experiments were probably quite rigorous in their application of scientific method. Logical, simply means you can work it out. The problem is not "can tampering with certain genes prevent certain problems"; that is theory. The problem is "can it be done without causing unacceptable harm"; that is application. Humans tend to find the most exquisite ways of screwing up their fellow human's lives and and giving someone the power over the very words that make up book of someone's life is simply too tempting for abuse and too easy to mess up. The problem is less theory and more human track record. Ignoring the track record in favor of focusing on the theory does not negate the old wisdom that those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Wishful thinking is not enough to counteract the fact that humanity still constantly proves it is not ready for such responsibility let alone such power.


Just to point out, with eugenics I don't mean sterilization or such practices, that's quite an old eugenics concept. Here I'm thinking more at "switching a couple of genes" into our DNA to prevent those genes from expressing if they are tied with some diseases.

That isn't so bad, but the problem remains that there are many who would still rely on sterilization, killing, coercion, and other bad or questionable practices to carry out their plans. This is why people are wary. If you open the gate for one, you could inadvertently open the gate for the others.

Here I mean:"how can we be sure that our morality is right?"

You imply a single universally accepted morality. This is impossible because humans cannot agree on anything even if we all perceive a matter in the same way. The problem there is not the concept of morality but rather humans. We can't even all agree that the sky is blue. ;D

That's the point! In my opinion all the morality discussion regards compassion. Should eugenics a practice to be included in medicine as surgery and so on? Is compassion a universally accepted positive trait?

it is not universally accepted as a positive trait and yet that leads back to my earlier point. The problem is not the concept but the contrary nature of humans. The fact that humans cannot agree on something does not reflect on the concept because we never universally agree on anything not flying not medicine not on how to run a society not even on the worth of a human life or what even constitutes a human life. it simply means there are lot of other areas we could stand to work on before we start tampering with genes.

However, I don't think compassion has anything to do with evolution as there are many people who lack it and it seems they not only succeed and survive but they at times thrive even. Yet, I do think that compassion is not only a necessary human trait it is a defining trait. It's probably one of those traits that at times save us from ourselves. it is civilizing and beautiful in its own way.

So, probably, compassion is related to the success/wealth of a group/society and for this reason morality changes over time. So, probably, a day, when it will be necessary, eugenics could be considered morally right.

Not quite, the fact that morality is, to whatever degree, subjective does not inherently imply that it is fluid. Some people do change their moral standards over time and others do not. I think it depends more on what group holds the most influence and that can always change. Even if prevailing attitudes change, that doesn't mean that it will be considered universally acceptable as the current vaccine debate shows.

Rigwyn

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Re: Eugenics
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2014, 12:23:32 pm »
Opinion is simply one's judgement on something. It does not need to be correct or make any sense and it can be completely wrong. Therefore, making decisions based on opinion alone is a pretty aimless approach if that opinion is not based on fact or sound theory. The whole debate about morality, good and evil and who decides which is which deserves its own separate discussion - but I guess we need to touch on it a bit here.

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Rooting something in fact is not a talisman against making bad decisions.


Yes, but making logical, educated decisions is far more effective than making uninformed or arbitrary choices. As an example, if you pit an unskilled, noobie chess player against a master like Fisher or Kasparov, the master is going to win *every* time because he(or she) will be making much more intelligent moves - even though they cannot see ahead to the end of the game and know for a fact if they played perfectly or not. Their knowledge is not perfect, but it is significat enough to give them a tremendous advantage at winning the game. ( Likewise, you would see a similar pattern if you pitted a newbie against a player with intermediate skills )

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  Humans tend to find the most exquisite ways of screwing up their fellow human's lives and and giving someone the power over the very words that make up book of someone's life is simply too tempting for abuse and too easy to mess up. The problem is less theory and more human track record. Ignoring the track record in favor of focusing on the theory does not negate the old wisdom that those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

So we should not pursue the application of eugenics because of what happened in Germany under Hitler's watch? This means that if someone misuses a technology in a terrible way ( like the internet, or psychology ) , we should abandon that technology? I disagree, but I do share your pessimism and agree that the abuse of such power is a serious liability.

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Wishful thinking is not enough to counteract the fact that humanity still constantly proves it is not ready for such responsibility let alone such power.

But once the technology is there, so too is the choice on how to use it. There is no shielding mankind from this responsibility. Whether we like it or not, these decisions are going to be made by one person or another.

Illysia

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Re: Eugenics
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2014, 01:10:40 pm »
Opinion is simply one's judgement on something. It does not need to be correct or make any sense and it can be completely wrong.

Can be wrong but is not inherently wrong. It is not inherently aimless either. How do you think people got to more structured approaches if not by having an opinion on how to proceed first? But that is another debate.

Yes, but making logical, educated decisions is far more effective than making uninformed or arbitrary choices. As an example, if you pit an unskilled, noobie chess player against a master like Fisher or Kasparov, the master is going to win *every* time because he(or she) will be making much more intelligent moves - even though they cannot see ahead to the end of the game and know for a fact if they played perfectly or not. Their knowledge is not perfect, but it is significat enough to give them a tremendous advantage at winning the game. ( Likewise, you would see a similar pattern if you pitted a newbie against a player with intermediate skills )

But you are equating a level of knowledge and expertise that is not currently held with this field. It is the newbie not Kasparov that is being asked to forward the field. Remember that it was only the 1950's when Watson and Crick actually discovered the structure of DNA. Many discoveries have been made, but the field itself is not only new but very deep. It will take more than 60 or so years to reach mastery. The problem lies not in the theory that more knowledge will benefit people, but that acquiring that knowledge will do far more harm than is acceptable in the path to reach mastery level. Application is where this issue becomes the problem that we are actually grappling with.

So we should not pursue the application of eugenics because of what happened in Germany under Hitler's watch? This means that if someone misuses a technology in a terrible way ( like the internet, or psychology ) , we should abandon that technology? I disagree, but I do share your pessimism and agree that the abuse of such power is a serious liability.

When it produces that bad an effect, then you have to seriously consider if it is worth it or responsible to push ahead. As the recipient of the end product, advanced medical care, you may be inclined to simply accept what the Nazi's did to people as unfortunate and evil and can say that at least we could put the information to good use. However, if you were to tell each of the people that lost their lives and/or were tortured to produce that result, do you think that they would find the advancement of other people's health a comfort before they died? Would you be willing to state that your health so important that such an atrocity occurring again is an acceptable risk? It is by no means a light risk or nor are the causalities inconsequential in the long run. I admit that the line of what is unacceptable is subjective as well, but clinging to what has proven to lead to much harm on the wish that it will eventually do enough good to balance the scales is pretty much as bad as trying to wish away illness. It is avoiding the realized issues in favor of the hoped for issues.

But once the technology is there, so too is the choice on how to use it. There is no shielding mankind from this responsibility. Whether we like it or not, these decisions are going to be made by one person or another.

The problem is not the choice but the level of maturity needed to make the right choice. A 3 year old will one day inevitably have to be responsible for itself and to make decisions for itself. However, one does not simply expect a 3 year old to raise itself, nor would anyone expect good results if it did. Time and maturity are needed before the 3 year old grows into the maturity, knowledge, wisdom and skill that it will need to be able to successfully accomplish the task. Humanity is no different. Rushing into trying to deal with matters it is not mature enough to handle will end badly and having more people or less people will not negate that underlying fact. Eventuality is not a justification for screwing up badly.

I remember hearing once that the scientists working on the Manhattan project originally tried to bury all the information once they realized just what it was capable of doing. The only reason all of that got reopened and developed was that others were coming to the same conclusion on their own and the information couldn't be stopped. So, not wanting the U.S. to be left behind they pressed on ahead. Since then, nuclear weapons have proliferated to the point of being able to destroy the planet so many times over it's insane. Yes, nuclear energy can be used to good effect but there was a reason those scientists tried to hold back. Had it been up to only them, they weren't ready to be responsible for the potential bad that would come along with any good. And just look, Chernobyl, Fukushima, and Hiroshima and Nagasaki aren't nearly as bad as what would happen if too many of those nuclear warheads went off. Once you open that can, you can't go back later and say, "Oops, we went to far. Let's put the lid back on."



Simply put, those arguments aren't adequate enough to justify pressing on when you are essentially proposing to give immature humans the power of God. The level of responsibility and temptation to do horrible things blows it into a completely different category than surgery or drugs.

CadRipper

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Re: Eugenics
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2014, 08:02:09 pm »
Quite an interesting question!

Just to point out, with eugenics I don't mean sterilization or such practices, that's quite an old eugenics concept. Here I'm thinking more at "switching a couple of genes" into our DNA to prevent those genes from expressing if they are tied with some diseases. I know I'm quite optimistic and it sounds more like science fiction for now, but a day perhaps....  :)

Seen like that it sounds like advanced surgery, and so the scope would be limited to an individual, and maybe their progeny. But of course it doesn't actually work like that, once an individual is born there is little chance to make any change to their genes. At best it would be a local change (as when Bob Melnikov transforms a virus to deliver a DNA change that cures his eye disease, in the excellent Regenesis series). It would not a global change (as in the improbable Bourne Legacy... arguably not a very serious reference though ;)).

And the scope is one of the key to the answer. As it has been judiciously pointed out here, making decisions on an entire race either by selecting or modifying the genes - since this is really the same in the long run - doing this could have drastic implications on its future because it would reduce the diversity, hence the probability of surviving in time of environmental change. And that's already assuming we would have enough knowledge not to make any big mistake for the short term! But let's allow that even though a living form shouldn't normally be able to grasp its own complexity (there is something awfully recursive about the thought of it).

Let's say such a program was set up in China. The rule is, to reproduce, you must have a genetic screening and government approved papers confirming your fitness and permitting you to reproduce. Upon child birth, a second round of genetic testing is performed - just to ensure that the offspring's DNA matches that of its registered parents. ( Those who try to cheat the system are swiftly deported )

An extrapolation of, and probably the idea behind, the already mentioned Gattaca. Funny to think about China though, who indirectly brought a control of the evolution by favouring males over females for an entirely different reason, and realized decades later what a mistake it was.

Again, if we agree that we got where we are by selected mutations, I think it did a pretty job by itself and I wouldn't mess with the system by adding criteria that will end up as a compromise between too many parties trying to define the best evolution of the human race.

What is cruel though, is the idea that we are already messing with it through medicine. It's certainly coming from compassion and we wouldn't be able to bear the injustice of letting other people suffer from such and such disease, malformation and affliction. But I can't help thinking it goes against what allowed us to survive so far.

Then once we get perfect human beings comes the question "what will we do when we survive too well and deplete the resources". Actually the question already stands for almost one century.

This reminds me of this really interesting talk about how close we are to be immortal - and I'm so sorry because this is in French, I could try and find out whether he made the same talk in English (from the Time magazine appearing on the screen during the talk, it should be the case):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGD-7M7iYzs&feature=player_embedded&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Ffeature%3Dplayer_embedded&gl=FR&app=desktop

Apparently from what Laurent Alexandre is saying, most of the causes of ageing would be close to being identified and countered by science. He ends up his talk with this very bold statement: "my personal conviction is that people in this auditorium will live a thousand years". And isn't ageing the ultimate illness?

Illysia

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Re: Eugenics
« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2014, 08:37:58 pm »
Then once we get perfect human beings comes the question "what will we do when we survive too well and deplete the resources". Actually the question already stands for almost one century.

Well, that is actually a fairly simply answer with morally less complex applications. What humans need to be able to do by that point is to be capable of essentially terraforming; traveling beyond the confines of earth; and more immediately, better use what resources are available in any given location. The moral implications however can again take up their own thread.

Jawir

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Re: Eugenics
« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2014, 09:39:42 pm »
Then once we get perfect human beings comes the question "what will we do when we survive too well and deplete the resources". Actually the question already stands for almost one century.

Well, that is actually a fairly simply answer with morally less complex applications. What humans need to be able to do by that point is to be capable of essentially terraforming; traveling beyond the confines of earth; and more immediately, better use what resources are available in any given location. The moral implications however can again take up their own thread.

Probably the answer is even easier: being perfect doesn't mean being immortal nor being for an entire life immune from any kind of disease. Look at nature and at any animal species of your choice: they are already perfect because they are already selected by nature, and the individual who survives is suitable to survive in its environment. And I'm not aware of any animal species capable to put at risk their own survivability by means of depleting resources... except us (as we are currently) though...
An example I like a lot is Limulus Polyphemus: it has an exceptionally good immune system, it is almost unchanged from the prehistory (a good indicator that it's almost perfect if it's still here  :)) and... it hasn't overwhelmed the world!  :P

CadRipper

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Re: Eugenics
« Reply #28 on: September 14, 2014, 09:40:55 pm »
Well, that is actually a fairly simply answer with morally less complex applications. What humans need to be able to do by that point is to be capable of essentially terraforming; traveling beyond the confines of earth; and more immediately, better use what resources are available in any given location. The moral implications however can again take up their own thread.

That would do it, if that's feasible soon enough - or feasible at all, there are some laws that are hard to work around. The problem I see with expanding is that it isn't a true solution, only postponing the outcome of the initial problem, which is a break in a subtly regulated system.

Admittedly, if we put it off far enough, it's fine ;)

Yet wouldn't people rather turn on one another? It's much easier and we already have all we need for that at our disposal. To avoid it, we could of course turn off another regulator and make sure there is no competition left in us, and boost empathy. But then again, we should be damn sure we know how to take over from that point on.

But am I not going slightly off topic? I suppose one problem at a time is enough... I'm just thinking it's not easy to tinker with a mechanism that has had more than 2 thousand million years of practice.

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An example I like a lot is Limulus Polyphemus: it has an exceptionally good immune system, it is almost unchanged from the prehistory (a good indicator that it's almost perfect if it's still here  :)) and... it hasn't overwhelmed the world!  :P
We have one definitive advantage over all other species: our intelligence which allowed us to benefit from technology. To such an extent we could dominate all others, that's a huge difference.

Looked it up, it looks like a pleasant enough fellow btw :D
« Last Edit: September 14, 2014, 09:48:29 pm by CadRipper »

Illysia

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Re: Eugenics
« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2014, 10:24:48 pm »
Probably the answer is even easier: being perfect doesn't mean being immortal nor being for an entire life immune from any kind of disease.

True, but, unlike all the other animals, Humans do not like to live the exact same way for very long. Consider how much change humans have gone through in societies and culturally just in the last 200 years alone. Whether we could find a niche and stay in it or not, we simple won't do so because we are just too curious and too restless. Much of the discussion of how to proceed stems from the fact that equating humans to animals is not an entirely accurate correlation. Humans have all sorts of drives that the average animal either lacks or ignores.

That would do it, if that's feasible soon enough - or feasible at all, there are some laws that are hard to work around. The problem I see with expanding is that it isn't a true solution, only postponing the outcome of the initial problem, which is a break in a subtly regulated system.

Actually, it's just a continuation of systems that are already in place. The solution is fine, it's the regulation that proves a test. Consumption is inevitable; the problem is replenishment, and that would just mean that the future would require humans to learn how to put back what they take out. For instance, animals eat grass, they poop, then grass grows again. Humans cut trees down then humans replant the seeds to grow more trees to cut. Consumption is a natural process of life, and all systems of consumption probably have an inverse of some sort that will allow you to replenish what you take. Humans only need to figure out what that inverse is and learn how to sustainably regulate the system in that interval between consumption and replenishment. This ultimately means learning how to delay instant gratification in order to maintain balance.

In a way it goes back to the argument of maturity. Are you mature enough to wait and get more over time or do you have to have everything right now and risk losing the resource entirely in the future?

Yet wouldn't people rather turn on one another? It's much easier and we already have all we need for that at our disposal.

Yes, it's the lack of maturity issue again and it's people that cut corners and take deceptively simple solutions that often interfere with the development and application of far better and longer lasting solutions.

To avoid it, we could of course turn off another regulator and make sure there is no competition left in us, and boost empathy. But then again, we should be damn sure we know how to take over from that point on.

That leads right back to the issues of "moral right" and "what is morality" that we started with the Eugenics discussion. However, I'm of the opinion that a boost in Empathy is exactly the shot in the arm that humanity needs right now. Yet, I don't think that is a purely biological phenomenon and it goes back to a discussion we had in one of Rigwyn's other threads about the nature of thought and the potential presence of metaphysical concepts that may or may not be explained by science at least not as it is known now.