Author Topic: PlaneShift, public relations and LGBT issues  (Read 15192 times)

LigH

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Re: PlaneShift, public relations and LGBT issues
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2015, 06:30:25 pm »
I am now quite certain that the problem here is not the limit in the game mechanics, but the potential to provoke a flame war. Arguing is more important than the topic. It's like introducing yourself like "Hi, my name is ..., and my sexual orientation is ...", and then waiting for any kind of reaction which might be interpretable, to have a reason to blame and sue. I would not want to spend much time with people who have a need to provoke me until I do something they can criticize. They repel me a lot more than technically unsupported minorities. Technical limits and flaws are much easier to ignore or circumvent than morons.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2015, 06:32:36 pm by LigH »

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Donari Tyndale

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Re: PlaneShift, public relations and LGBT issues
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2015, 06:34:15 pm »
Pretty much, LigH. Hence we should get rid of the marriage button.

MishkaL1138

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Re: PlaneShift, public relations and LGBT issues
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2015, 06:48:44 pm »
A friend told me this post wasn't nice, so have a nice wisteria

« Last Edit: March 25, 2015, 06:55:18 pm by MishkaL1138 »

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Siteya

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Re: PlaneShift, public relations and LGBT issues
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2015, 06:55:25 pm »
The marriage button can be extremely offensive to female players, and a source of sexual harassment, which is felt OOC. This has not happened as much since there are way fewer players, but I have been offended and angered when, just in one day, at three different times, my character was asked to marry other characters, when there was not even an IG conversation. I was freaked out and offended by this behavior and it seemed completely unnecessary and could feel extremely awkward and unsafe to a new female player. It is just silly and unnecessary.

Before Volki's thread was locked, immediately after Talad posted, I felt no one was able to respond to the comments about "settings." Medieval, is more of a flavor in the realm, not an end all be all, it would be more challenging but the rules would be very clear, this world so loosely resembles the period by any historians standards would be shotty at best to compare it. In this world women have equal rights (we have not even passed the ERA in the USA yet) , and my favorite aspect...scantily clothed upon entry (Nolthrir, Dermorians) There was a zealous religious movement, feudalism, and anyone straying from the flock, tortured and burned for not obeying.

Although guidelines and rules and lore are in place IG, it is the community telling the stories that sets the pace, the community has been and always will be gay supportive, because it is a safe place to explore such themes, and face it the youth are going to do that in PS,sometimes it is easier then IRL. And PS is always going to reflect RL, no matter how hard you think outside of the box, we bring our own experiences to the game, or we explore experiences we cannot IRL, and we cannot truly stop our sub conscious minds from knowing certain truths, even when we think we are playing so outside the box. I find in my experiences of creating a positive vibe in the communities I have a leadership responsibility, is give the people what they want or at least give them the opportunity to explore the concepts they ask for. Awarding the community for their commitment and requests will only result in positive results. Otherwise you will have to get the guards out there and start burning gay folks at the stake and for Laanx's sake give those girls some clothes. Medieval garb would include many layers of restrictive garments.

I would also like to shine a light on Kran, they are not male or female, so they can marry either sex? Have a choice of sexual preference? Marry each other? A built in trans reality to the game and an opportunity at same sex relations, and any sex preference. If we all quite playing our normal characters, and only played kran, the issue would be resolved as it is already built into game mechanics (this I am not sure of because I have never played a kran, nor asked one to marry any of my chars) Anyhow, we should look to Kran to show us the way. And also look to the fact that we can marry cross species in game, which would result in death for a Dermorian elf, birthing a Ynnwn half breed...and I am pretty sure cross breeding for most species has an element of absolute birthing disasters. Are there laws in place to prevent that? We can actually marry cross breed so I imagine not. Encouraging breeding is not the best strong point argument in why same sex marriage is not an acceptable option.

Just my thoughts. I will always vote to remove the button. Marriage is a IRL concept wrought full with all sorts of patriarchal attitudes, even if it is not meant to be IG, ownership is implied by the forced name change on the female chars behalf.

my thoughts :)

Donari Tyndale

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Re: PlaneShift, public relations and LGBT issues
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2015, 07:06:55 pm »
Siteya has a point. Should we discriminate female characters ICly because that was common practice in the middle ages? Also, the fact that female characters always take the male characters' last name is kind of sexist.

Cairn

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Re: PlaneShift, public relations and LGBT issues
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2015, 07:08:01 pm »
I am now quite certain that the problem here is not the limit in the game mechanics, but the potential to provoke a flame war. Arguing is more important than the topic. It's like introducing yourself like "Hi, my name is ..., and my sexual orientation is ...", and then waiting for any kind of reaction which might be interpretable, to have a reason to blame and sue. I would not want to spend much time with people who have a need to provoke me until I do something they can criticize. They repel me a lot more than technically unsupported minorities. Technical limits and flaws are much easier to ignore or circumvent than morons.

Wait, what? Ligh, man, there are a few of us here who are legitimately and peacefully trying to help :/ It's not fair to throw the whole argument under the bus. I totally understand you, but idk. You're a good guy. We can't dismiss things because we don't like them.

Maybe there are people out there looking to nitpick. I just haven't seen it in the posts. That being said, it's generally a good idea to step back and give everyone the positive benefit of the doubt in interpreting posts.

Oh and I promise I'm not trying to bash or disprove you sir! Just asking those of us involved to lend an ear :)
« Last Edit: March 25, 2015, 07:12:40 pm by Cairn »
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LigH

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Re: PlaneShift, public relations and LGBT issues
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2015, 07:12:45 pm »
Cairn, I don't mind discussing serious matters in a sensible way. If everyone would agree, we might even solve the lack of player base this way.

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Cairn

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Re: PlaneShift, public relations and LGBT issues
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2015, 07:13:58 pm »
Cairn, I don't mind discussing serious matters in a sensible way. If everyone would agree, we might even solve the lack of player base this way.

Cool :)

I think most everyone is being sensible here.

And like always, we need to take this back to the settings. Siteya's correct in "Medieval" is too loose. [I mean, Medieval Germany? Medieval Europe? Medieval Asia? Medieval Middle East? There are SO many variations of this, and in some of these variations homo marriage was the thing, yo. I mean, Early Medieval times? Middle Ages? I'm lost on that, bros.]
As I have posted before and will post again:

Make it concrete. Those who are writing the settings, put it in there. The fact that an OOC function disallows it is NOT concrete, devs. Sorry >.> Well I guess maybe it is to you guys, but clue us players in too with something we can understand :)

The fact that there are books being written on it is good. That these books seem to allow it is eye-opening.

Why don't we focus on that? Remove the function, edit the function, or just clarify it and leave the function there, but at least there's complete and utter clarification.


Because the way I see it now is:

Settings is divided on the issue.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2015, 07:25:10 pm by Cairn »
I regret to announce that this is the end.

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Zalya

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Re: PlaneShift, public relations and LGBT issues
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2015, 07:52:30 pm »
I've been watching this thread (threads?) all morning now. I don't normally post here, especially on threads that can get rather heated. Honestly though, I do care about this subject, and the impact it has on Planeshift.

As a community, Planeshift has always come off as being very LGBTQ+ inclusive, both IC and OOC. ICly I've seen plenty of gay and lesbian weddings, and a number of successful queer relationships. I might even say that I've seen more gay relationships than straight ones. Settings wise, Planeshift flirts with non-binary gender identities and presentations. The kran have a well established third gender. Planeshift even has trans god. If we're already dealing with non-standard notions of gender, and race, I think we can play more than just hetero sexualities as well.

The argument that homosexuality did not exist in the middle ages is a moot point. Ylikum is not our world or our culture, and even if it were same-sex unions are not a new thing, and have been performed historically across the world. The argument that non-child producing unions are frowned upon societally because of dangers present in the world is also flawed. The relative size of Ylikum combined with the ability to return from common death prevent the need for fear of under population. In fact, I'd even argue that a low birth rate is better for fear of overpopulation. Cultural marriage practices from the non-native races of Ylikum might play a bigger role in societal acceptance of gay marriage, and non-binary identities. Even so, Mariana has stated that at least certain populations are accepting of non-traditional, and polygynous unions. I would very much like to see these books if they have been published.

The  ideal way to handle the situation in my mind is to have relationships be defined at a cultural level based on location, and in-game race. Ylikum is a melting pot, and is full of fantastic cultures all jammed together into one tiny underground world. Brushing away the complicated social-political nature of all relationships is missing the opportunity for engaging, and deep RP. I would like to see a setting where instead of pretending LGBTQ+ people don’t exist, we provide a platform for exploration, and safe, interesting stories of social rebellion in an open minded community. The last thing we should do is silence queer voices.

Mechanically, I think most of the community is agreed that the marriage button does absolutely nothing, and should probably be removed.

(23:25:58) Elady says: Zalya are you trying to eat a ruby?
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bilbous

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Re: PlaneShift, public relations and LGBT issues
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2015, 08:16:13 pm »
PG-13 sex is holding hands or possibly a peck on the cheek. Just saying.

Donari Tyndale

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Re: PlaneShift, public relations and LGBT issues
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2015, 08:19:26 pm »
PG-13 sex is holding hands or possibly a peck on the cheek. Just saying.
This isn't about sex, don't make it about it. Even children understand love and marriage.

bilbous

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Re: PlaneShift, public relations and LGBT issues
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2015, 08:37:09 pm »
If it isn't about sex then how can it be based on sexual preference? Is there another way of understanding LGBT issues? Lesbian, Gay and Bisexuals are subsets of the two established genders based on to whom they are attracted. Those poor unfortunates who feel that they were born in the body of the wrong gender might have a claim to a different issue.

And no, children are given a very superficial understanding of both love and marriage or else there would be a lot less fallout when marriages fall apart.

Than, again I am convinced love is nothing more than a chemical imbalance in the brain.

Donari Tyndale

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Re: PlaneShift, public relations and LGBT issues
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2015, 08:40:40 pm »
Love isn't sex. You marry whom you love, and that can be anyone. Saying you can only marry a reproductively compatible gender is making it about sex, though.

Siteya

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Re: PlaneShift, public relations and LGBT issues
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2015, 09:40:04 pm »
Zayla & Mariana- the books are in Jayose's library

bilbous

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Re: PlaneShift, public relations and LGBT issues
« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2015, 10:29:44 pm »
Marriage is less often about love than about something else. It is a western notion to marry for love.