Author Topic: PlaneShift, public relations and LGBT issues  (Read 15161 times)

Rigwyn

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Re: PlaneShift, public relations and LGBT issues
« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2015, 11:20:03 pm »
Regarding the accidental equivocation on "sex" and "gender" a few posts ago, I present to you our friend, the Genderbread Person.


Donari Tyndale

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Re: PlaneShift, public relations and LGBT issues
« Reply #31 on: March 26, 2015, 12:12:15 am »
Regarding the accidental equivocation on "sex" and "gender" a few posts ago, I present to you our friend, the Genderbread Person.
There was no such equivocation, reading it again should make it clear I used as a synonym for "making love" ;D

Roled

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Re: PlaneShift, public relations and LGBT issues
« Reply #32 on: March 26, 2015, 03:01:54 am »
BTW....
In India there is a spectrum of recognized and socio-normative genders- female/female, female, female/male, female neutral, neutral, male/neutral, male male/femal and male/male...

In the Philippines, sexual identity is not gender based but is defined by one's spirit , so your sexual identity is found within your soul...

and
Islamic Homosexualities: Culture, History, and Literature
 edited by Will Roscoe, Stephen O. Murray  has an insightful abstract: see
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=6Zw-AAAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PA3&dq=medieval+homosexuality&ots=mMiqENXYpl&sig=TKlFSif8Wwt5S33jRmBc0kXjr_I#v=onepage&q=medieval%20homosexuality&f=false

and
Crossing Borders: Love Between Women in Medieval French and Arabic Literatures
 By Sahar Amer    see: http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=zhHbLI5lUvoC&oi=fnd&pg=PP2&dq=medieval+homosexuality&ots=qd7dWjiMdK&sig=RsJwS_j6ELldzuBV34KO37RMPcs#v=onepage&q=medieval%20homosexuality&f=false

Just to add a little actual historical research to the opinions.

AND
I think this recalcitrance is a huge PR disaster that may already be too public to walk back. It is not a matter of 'political flattery' it is a matter of human rights.

Historically in most cultures and eras, people have died defending such rights.

Thanks Rig for the chart.
RR
"RR is a PieSexual" ~ Monala

bilbous

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Re: PlaneShift, public relations and LGBT issues
« Reply #33 on: March 26, 2015, 04:30:29 am »
I don't see any of you protesters submitting a patch, just demanding what you think are your rights. Which one of you had your patch refused?

I have to say that I think that the main reason that the functionality has not been removed is because it has been used in promotional materials. I recall attending a wedding that was 'filmed' for a South American media spot. Sometimes it is hard to remove things from a game because they are advertised features that meant a lot to someone.

Rights, like other abstract human notions, are not real. Anything that can be taken from you on a whim is not yours to begin with. You just have custody of it for a little while.


Pierre

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Re: PlaneShift, public relations and LGBT issues
« Reply #34 on: March 26, 2015, 05:03:36 am »
I agree with Cairn, the two issues are separate - marriage button and gay marriage.  I feel very strongly about each of them, but in opposite directions (please keep the marriage button, I like the tradition of being married and taking my spouse's name, even though irl I would keep my own name, IG it's awesome and immersive).

I don't see it as "demanding rights," it's a conversation that some of us feel strongly about and are expressing our strong opinions about being able to marry in the same way whether same or opposite sex.  That's all.  Bilbous, if it's possible to just let people speak without trying to shut it down, that would be a kind thing to do.  And it might be that if you were able to shut us all up, it would only be you and LigH IG, and you guys couldn't marry anyway to liven things up  :love: :love: :love:  Do consider that.

But it sounds like the answer is no, the team will not allow homosexual marriages, only hetero.  If true, it's sad to me.  I swear the things that make this game great - specifically that it is the only open source MMORPG around, and the people who play - fit perfectly with legal marriage between all genders.

Is it being considered?  I appreciate Talad commenting on the last thread.  Perhaps it is fair to say that the topic isn't a fringe topic or one being brought up by the same few people over and over, and thus should be put to rest.  It's pretty important to many of us playing now.

I know the game is being built by the PS team who are putting in the hard work of coding and updating and expanding, and I love this and am grateful to you guys.

In some small part it is also helped along by players who contribute in their own ways, books, bugs, partaking in GM events with good cheer, etc.  It's good when we listen to each other.

This is important.  Let's at least listen.  I will say that if there is any choice in this matter, if it is not possible to open up the "marriage between any two" button without a lot of work, then I would agree with turning off the marriage button.  But I've always loved it, never been harassed (and am sorry for those who have been).

I definitely appreciate the reminder that one of our gods is transgender.  Do you see how awesome Yliakum already is???

All inclusive marriage button would be totally in line with this  :love: :love: :love: Laanx is on our side  :)
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 05:07:12 am by Pierre »

Pierre

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Re: PlaneShift, public relations and LGBT issues
« Reply #35 on: March 26, 2015, 05:27:12 am »
This, and nothing but this:

But someone has made the decision that marriage in PS, at least the button for that, works only for characters of different gender, through a gender check in the source code, hence making a statement. Not making a statement would be not adding a restriction for gender and race.

This would fix it all.  Removing the gender check.

Volki

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Re: PlaneShift, public relations and LGBT issues
« Reply #36 on: March 26, 2015, 05:34:11 am »
Rights, like other abstract human notions, are not real. Anything that can be taken from you on a whim is not yours to begin with. You just have custody of it for a little while.

Right, bilbous. That's exactly how rights work. It's not like they're some internationally recognized pillars of humanity or anything. They're just some abstract notions which can and should be undermined by personal politics.
Lace dark dreadfull power inside him awakens now fully resultin his former self comin back lord of dark noble house shantae of mevango family lacertus shadowone mevango also knowed as darkblade of shadows

Wocib

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Re: PlaneShift, public relations and LGBT issues
« Reply #37 on: March 26, 2015, 07:01:20 am »
[OOC...Please stay in character]

Bodier

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Re: PlaneShift, public relations and LGBT issues
« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2015, 07:36:58 am »
Gosh I'm sorry  , feeding this thread in my mind is just feeding the trolls ( no disrespect to  the others), but hey were in troubled times, any moment the bronze doors could be kicked in and everyone will have to stand and fight. seems to me at these troubled times it'd be encouraged to have children, for the futures safety, I've nothing against the whole "gay" thing, but i'd makes more sense to me settings wise, as this is the way the dome would go. 

Rigwyn

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Re: PlaneShift, public relations and LGBT issues
« Reply #39 on: March 26, 2015, 10:10:19 am »
Gosh I'm sorry  , feeding this thread in my mind is just feeding the trolls ( no disrespect to  the others), but hey were in troubled times, any moment the bronze doors could be kicked in and everyone will have to stand and fight. seems to me at these troubled times it'd be encouraged to have children, for the futures safety, I've nothing against the whole "gay" thing, but i'd makes more sense to me settings wise, as this is the way the dome would go.

So do you think that gay people would just suddenly become straight because of the present danger? Let me ask you the reverse - could you as a straight person just suddenly become gay because it was needed or something or because others thought it would be a good idea?

People don't just "become" gay because they are bored and have nothing better to do. Its a major part of who and what they are just as being straight is very much a part of who and you are. Its not something that you can just change, so the whole argument about people being straight out of necessity is terribly flawed.

As for fighting goes, a gay person can fight just as well as a straight person. If anything it would make more sense to have those who are gay to take the lead in battle so that those who are straight could protect their wives and offspring.

As for the need to produce offspring, it's really the women that matter here. The more women you have and the more children they can produce in their lifetime, the greater potential there is for FUTURE population growth. While 1:1 partnerships might be more common or the easiest to maintain, a single male could fertilize multiple women, though the more the better.

Now while its easy to say, "gather up the women, we need to breed some troops", those women in question may not wish to reproduce if they think their children will not have a good life and if they were born gay, they are not going to do it unless forced. (just as you would not have sex with another man unless forced) Likewise, having children does little for the present. It means more mouthes to feed hence less food for everyone else, more bodies to protect, and more work for the already busy to do. You are more likely to get a reproduction boom AFTER the war/threat/danger is dealt with then during it ( when the straight men are away from home and fighting in the field)

As for this bit about times in Yliakum being really hard and all, people in Yliakum live rather well. They have lots of food and resources, money, magic, libraries, and fairly modern looking shelters, alchemy, herbalism, and so on. They have guards, governments, religions, education, science and art. These are not the things you find in a society that is so desperate for resources that they have to ignore everything that's not a necessity.

As for the trolls, who exactly are these trolls or was that a strawman that you were beating up on?

Pierre

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Re: PlaneShift, public relations and LGBT issues
« Reply #40 on: March 26, 2015, 11:01:21 am »
No, I think Bodier means that only heterosexual marriage would be legally sanctioned in such times.

I also think that the reference to trolls is for a very few who tend to occasionally slip into trolling the hell out of other people's threads and perhaps even start trolly threads of their own?  A very few (and certainly RR is not one of them).  That was my take on the statement.

I agree that we are extremely comfortable to be in such troubled times or to be in such danger.  But probably Talad will kill us all to prove the point :)

However, most of us aren't trolls, and I think all of us care about the topic, actually care (ok Donari I can't get a bead on, but the rest, definitely) a lot.

MishkaL1138

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Re: PlaneShift, public relations and LGBT issues
« Reply #41 on: March 26, 2015, 11:34:22 am »

My dear Pierre,

There's a bad habit of calling those with whom you don't agree, simply dislike, or just hate their guys, trolls. Now I don't know what triggers that name-calling, but I'm certain I don't like it, especially when one of the higher-ups has gone so far as to call me a troll in private (that is, through chat and private messages). You say the sin but not the sinner, though, and he knows who he is.

Despite this, and risking to be called a troll again just because I raised a politically incorrect issue from the dead again, I chose to speak up and stand my ground. If being hard-headed and coherent with the way I think means being a troll, then where's my bridge? I was raised in a Catholic household, and all my life I learned that gays were sinners, sick, and that they shouldn't exist. Yet look at me now: a staunch, fervent defender of the same sex marriage. What triggered this change?

It's simple. I'm not a bigot anymore. Back when I was a little kid, I didn't know better. But men learn from their mistakes, and so did I. It's not that
Quote from: King James' Bible, Levithicus 20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

but that
Quote from: King James' Bible, 1 Peter 4:8
And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

by which I became open to my neighbor, to respect and love them regardless of what they like, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone.

I don't have many best friends: with one of them I almost have a love relationship (what you'd call a bromance), and the other is a confessed homosexual. We've gone to gay discotheques together, and I find no shame in admitting it, despite my parents' hysteria. I've invited him to my house, gone to his, gone out for lunch with the three, and a long et cetera.

This is why I'm writing this today: because, as Roled says, I feel unwelcome in this game anymore. I have contributed, I considered donating (lack of a stable income prevented me from it), I tried my best to roleplay and shape the virtual world in which our imagination thrives. And yet, for voicing my opinion, I get hate, name-calling, and exclusion. But then again, I understand I haven't paid for this game, I don't think I will ever have the chance to, and it will remain in someone else's possession for a long time, and that it's someone else that doesn't share my point of view. And I will keep on playing, until life gives me enough lemons to make me consider myself retired from this scene.

Sincerely yours,

Mishka

"It's all fun and games until someone stabs someone else in the eye."

Pierre

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Re: PlaneShift, public relations and LGBT issues
« Reply #42 on: March 26, 2015, 11:45:41 am »
Gods have mercy, Mishka, don't direct that at me.  I do not think you are trolling on this subject.  I don't think anyone is.

Back on topic then.

EDIT:  Maybe I was not clear - I was translating Bodier's comments because they seemed misinterpreted by Rigs.  That does not mean I made those comments and it doesn't mean I agree with them, because I don't.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 11:50:11 am by Pierre »

Donari Tyndale

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Re: PlaneShift, public relations and LGBT issues
« Reply #43 on: March 26, 2015, 12:02:42 pm »
Gosh I'm sorry  , feeding this thread in my mind is just feeding the trolls ( no disrespect to  the others), but hey were in troubled times, any moment the bronze doors could be kicked in and everyone will have to stand and fight. seems to me at these troubled times it'd be encouraged to have children, for the futures safety, I've nothing against the whole "gay" thing, but i'd makes more sense to me settings wise, as this is the way the dome would go.

Didn't already Mariana say it was not against the settings?

I don't see any of you protesters submitting a patch, just demanding what you think are your rights. Which one of you had your patch refused?

Simple. Remove these lines (273-301)
Quote

 // Don't let same gender marriages - genderless is an exception)
if((client->GetCharacterData()->GetRaceInfo()->gender != PSCHARACTER_GENDER_NONE)
&& (client->GetCharacterData()->GetRaceInfo()->gender ==
proposedClient->GetCharacterData()->GetRaceInfo()->gender))
{
psserver->SendSystemResult(client->GetClientNum(),
"You cannot marry a person of your same gender.");
return;
}
// If proposer is genderless - He can only marry other genderless
if((client->GetCharacterData()->GetRaceInfo()->gender == PSCHARACTER_GENDER_NONE))
{
// Don't progress if proposed char is not Kran also
if(proposedClient->GetCharacterData()->GetRaceInfo()->gender != PSCHARACTER_GENDER_NONE)
{
psserver->SendSystemError(client->GetClientNum(), "You can only marry other genderless.");
return;
}
}
// Proposer is not a Kran, then he cannot marry a Kran
else
{
if(proposedClient->GetCharacterData()->GetRaceInfo()->gender == PSCHARACTER_GENDER_NONE)
{
psserver->SendSystemError(client->GetClientNum(), "Only genderless can marry other genderless.");
return;
}
}
from marriagemanager.cpp

MishkaL1138

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Re: PlaneShift, public relations and LGBT issues
« Reply #44 on: March 26, 2015, 12:35:56 pm »
Gods have mercy, Mishka, don't direct that at me.  I do not think you are trolling on this subject.  I don't think anyone is.

I directed it at you to explain why some consider us trolls. Just that, no hard feelings towards you whatsoever.

"It's all fun and games until someone stabs someone else in the eye."