PlaneShift, public relations and LGBT issues

[Siteya]

Actually, historically males are quite capable of having sex with their fellow soldiers, it is rather convenient and no one had to worry about getting pregnant while on the job...

http://www.soldiers-of-misfortune.com/history/gay-warriors.htm

http://www.bilerico.com/2011/04/americas_gay_confederate_and_union_soldiers.php

Even Lucy Lawless outed Xena and Gabriele

[bilbous]

The only logic I see being applied in these threads is: I Am Gay -- You Must Obey!

You are not being oppressed because one stupid button doesn't suit you. I suspect most of the people complaining feel free to ignore inconvenient game mechanics at will. Many of you that use the game mechanics to level do so OOCly as it is often the fastest way to level.

Pick your battles, this one isn't worth the trouble.

[Zalya]

Gosh I'm sorry  , feeding this thread in my mind is just feeding the trolls ( no disrespect to  the others), but hey were in troubled times, any moment the bronze doors could be kicked in and everyone will have to stand and fight. seems to me at these troubled times it'd be encouraged to have children, for the futures safety, I've nothing against the whole "gay" thing, but i'd makes more sense to me settings wise, as this is the way the dome would go.

Settings wise this is shaky premise. As Riggy mentioned, no one just becomes straight because the world needs lots of babies. Even if that were the case though, the threat from the bronze doors isn't as immanent and looming as you make it sound. According to in game books at the library, the Bronze Doors are kept slightly open most of the time to allow for travel, trade, and exploration of the Stone Labyrinths. The Sunshine, and Shadow squadrons are enough to keep the creatures and raiders of the labyrinths away most of the time. If they can't handle an invasion, the doors are closed. In the interior of the dome though, especially in the cities, things are much safer. Yes there are creatures, and bandits and so on, but to my knowledge there has been no major conflict since the end of the ylian-enki war hundreds of years ago. Even the architecture of the cities, and the fact that the people of Ylikum have been able to build monuments as massive as the Iron Temple, or the winches suggest that there is no shortage of a population tp be used as laborers.

Suggesting that only child producing couples are valued societally leads us down a very dark path. Does this mean that relationships between anyone who cannot have children for whatever reason are looked down upon? Not only are some people born without the ability to produce offspring in real life, it also has in-game racist connotations between interracial couples who would not normally be able to reproduce naturally with other races, such as the Klyros. Are these unions also looked down upon? Not to mention that there are still trans and intersex people out there who might also have trouble having children. Are we also to say that their experiences don't matter?

OOCly, PS is first and foremost a fantasy world. The writers and setting devs have the ability create a world entirely unlike our own. This creative freedom allows for the exploration of social structures, and cultural norms that are different than what we have in real life. So why do we keep falling into the pitfall of eurocentric Christian marriage ideals? This issue isn't just to do with settings, or the story in game, it has to do with the stories we tell as a society. Whether or not Planeshift wants to, it's going to have to take a political stance. Deciding not to act is an act within itself. Trying to justify compulsory heterosexuality in a fantasy world makes a very strong statement. We can either create a world that incorporates LGBTQ-alphabet soup voices, or excludes them. I know what world I'd want to play in.

Thanks for reading, and I hope this discussion continues in a positive direction!

[Roled]

Continuing with this civil discussion: AND the PR disaster that has resulted from the decisions made by the powers.  Bilbous and others, I think you got me wrong- I don't wish anyone to be gay or not to be gay, or to be in any part of the spectrum. What I want, and am willing to struggle with and discuss and stand up for, is the freedom to be who one is, including love.  Gayness may have to do with sex, of course, humans in general (but not all) tend to appreciate a variety of sensual experiences. For me gayness is about love.

This is why I care- this is why I continue to discuss, to insist, to resist, to organize. I want to be able to love openly and freely. LOVE.

And it is for me worth standing up for- in the USA so many people said of civil rights- it's the way it is, its not worth the trouble, the powers will not yield to equality. And yet.....  In Germany so many people said of freedom of religion, its not worth the trouble, I am not Jewish, you can't change the government, we have no power, and yet.... In India, so many people said, I am poor, I am indigenous, we cannot change the Raj, a march to the sea will not change anything, and yet...  South Africa... Stonewall... Selma... "The hardest part is to keep on believing that the turning point is right at hand" singer songwriter Charlie Murphy... Farm Aid and Willie Nelson... Irish hunger strikers died for freedom... and to Bodier's thoughtful comment (I am not being facious Bodier, I thank you) I must remind us all: Sparta.

We must continue to become students of history, imho...

For those who believe in freedom, in love, and in equality, these are the things worth fighting for, standing up for, in all areas of society as the thoughtful Zalya has said.

Zalya I love this!

Gosh I'm sorry  , feeding this thread in my mind is just feeding the trolls ( no disrespect to  the others), but hey were in troubled times, any moment the bronze doors could be kicked in and everyone will have to stand and fight. seems to me at these troubled times it'd be encouraged to have children, for the futures safety, I've nothing against the whole "gay" thing, but i'd makes more sense to me settings wise, as this is the way the dome would go.

Settings wise this is shaky premise. As Riggy mentioned, no one just becomes straight because the world needs lots of babies. Even if that were the case though, the threat from the bronze doors isn't as immanent and looming as you make it sound. According to in game books at the library, the Bronze Doors are kept slightly open most of the time to allow for travel, trade, and exploration of the Stone Labyrinths. The Sunshine, and Shadow squadrons are enough to keep the creatures and raiders of the labyrinths away most of the time. If they can't handle an invasion, the doors are closed. In the interior of the dome though, especially in the cities, things are much safer. Yes there are creatures, and bandits and so on, but to my knowledge there has been no major conflict since the end of the ylian-enki war hundreds of years ago. Even the architecture of the cities, and the fact that the people of Ylikum have been able to build monuments as massive as the Iron Temple, or the winches suggest that there is no shortage of a population tp be used as laborers.

Suggesting that only child producing couples are valued societally leads us down a very dark path. Does this mean that relationships between anyone who cannot have children for whatever reason are looked down upon? Not only are some people born without the ability to produce offspring in real life, it also has in-game racist connotations between interracial couples who would not normally be able to reproduce naturally with other races, such as the Klyros. Are these unions also looked down upon? Not to mention that there are still trans and intersex people out there who might also have trouble having children. Are we also to say that their experiences don't matter?

OOCly, PS is first and foremost a fantasy world. The writers and setting devs have the ability create a world entirely unlike our own. This creative freedom allows for the exploration of social structures, and cultural norms that are different than what we have in real life. So why do we keep falling into the pitfall of eurocentric Christian marriage ideals? This issue isn't just to do with settings, or the story in game, it has to do with the stories we tell as a society. Whether or not Planeshift wants to, it's going to have to take a political stance. Deciding not to act is an act within itself. Trying to justify compulsory heterosexuality in a fantasy world makes a very strong statement. We can either create a world that incorporates LGBTQ-alphabet soup voices, or excludes them. I know what world I'd want to play in.

Thanks for reading, and I hope this discussion continues in a positive direction!

Thank you all for standing as allies with peoples who are oppressed. It may be a fantasy world this Dome but this struggle is not a fantasy. It is real.

And there are as many consequences of standing aside as there are of standing up.

My good wishes
RR

[Candy]

I don't have anything eloquent to say, nor do I have any arguments that haven't already been brought up. I just want to voice my support for a better measure to make our LGBTQ community feel acknowledged in-game - and for getting rid of the marriage mechanic altogether. It's easy enough to simply RP a change in surname.

[bilbous]

If you cannot tolerate minor inconveniences your freedom comes at the cost of others. This stupid button is a minor inconvenience. I feel bad that your lives are so wretched and empty that you must have this insignificant victory at all costs.

For the record I do not care who you choose to embrace. I personally choose to embrace nobody.

Goodbye

[Volki]

The only logic I see being applied in these threads is: I Am Gay -- You Must Obey!

I guarantee you a large percentage of us posters are not gay. I am not gay, for example. Please take this discussion seriously, bilbous.

If you cannot tolerate minor inconveniences your freedom comes at the cost of others.

In what way is asking for a button to be changed at the cost of anyone's freedom but those asking?

This stupid button is a minor inconvenience.

If it is so minor, why not change it?

I feel bad that your lives are so wretched and empty that you must have this insignificant victory at all costs.

This is not insignificant to the people who now feel unwelcome in this game.

[Cairn]

Dear Bilbous,

I'm sorry to see you go, first of all. I just want to make sure that what's going on is clear to you, because it seems clear to me.

First off, I am not gay. Ergo when you say it's the agenda of "I'm Gay, Obey Me", well, it's really not cool man.

Secondly, to others, I've never been banned. Or if I have, I've successfully circumvented it?

Thirdly, to the whole "Your lives are so wretched and empty...blah blah blah..."

Mudslinging, man :/.

Let me clarify this for everyone, for every poster involved:

The second you start bringing whether someone's banned, someone's oriented a certain way in real life, etc., etc., to an argument, it's politics, now. That means that any chance we had of real work getting done is getting slimmer.

Why don't we just treat this as it is? A coalition of players requesting a function to either be added or removed for the sake of continuity.

Why is it so hard? Why does this issue bring out such ugliness? Especially from you, Bilbous? I've known you for some time. You're a very smart, very educated man. It's not a matter of how you feel about the issue in real life. Hell, it's not honestly a matter of the issue itself.

It's not a matter of tolerating inconvenience, either.

It's just requesting to get the stupid button updated or the settings solidified. Simple, right? Let's set aside everything else....

I'd love to help, in any way I can. If I need to go back to settings, to coding, or whatever. Let me be a part of it!

Just guys, gals.....stop this lowblow stuff :/ I don't want to see whether people are known troublemakers, banned often, wretched, or anything else.

Thanks though, for your opinion buddy. I do promise you that I didn't dismiss it, nor have I dismissed the opinions of others. Just...stop with trying to drag other circumstances in.

And on that note, it appears a goodbye is in order.

Goodbye, friend

[MishkaL1138]

I think we all got it wrong, trying to ask for a button to be removed... I think the question is that we want a place in where we can be free, because possibly we can't be IRL - remember, there are places in which homosexual relationships are forbidden. If some people feel unwelcome in this game for that reason, which is so easy to fix, why don't we? Again, I'm not saying we remove the button, but we could certainly improve it.

What happened to the families' GSoC project? Did it just get run over and buried deep below? Deliberately forgotten? Burnt and the ashes scattered all over the Earth? We were promised a new family system, with offspring, elders, siblings, and hell! Same sex marriages! Bring that back, it ain't hard.

[Siteya]

The marriage button and inclusiveness are inherently linked. The marriage button is a result of patriarchal systems in real life that works its way into the game. A binary gender system that would put boys in this group and treated this way, girls in this group and treated that way, boys and girls have sex and breed. The marriage system is patriarchal because it is an ancient system of ownership of women and still is in many countries, anyone following Afghanistan and the protest earlier this week? This is why there were big debates on why a majority of Lesbians fell silent or protested equal marriage rights for gays in the US, because the dichotomy of marriage is inherently patriarchal, and lesbians & feminists say down with an oppressive  system.

Last night I finally discovered that Kran, cannot marry, which in my opinion could also be a point of debate, but also backs up and reflects the binary breeding agenda of the patriarchy, since the rock people don't fit and can't breed they do not get the right to marry, (albeit the only right in PS is to share a male players last name) This would definitely support that the only reason we have marriage in PS is to breed (except that cross species breeding is counterproductive and deadly). But this also dispels the argument that we don't have the code or the patch to remove the button, the krans have the code and so the solution already exists.

Our characters do not know the marriage button exists...that makes it an OOC game mechanic.The marriage button implies 2 harmful OOC negatives, homophobia & sexism, that has been repeatedly observed and spoken against by the player base for many years. This heated debate refuses to go away, but continues to be a thorn in the side, that gets more and more infected and inflamed with each thread closed, festering and oozing foulness and negativity. A simple solution, would be remove the button...then when the debate comes back around on gay marriage, it won't be about the damn button anymore because you gave the players the freedom to choose how they would like to play it out without implying that they should be marrying for breeding at all costs. If you truly feel that the stance of the team is "only hetero marriages are allowed in the realm, then be sure to make that obvious in the laws and be ready for the uprising that will ensue. This is a topic that has been on the fence, and every time you get a new player base, they will ask the same question about that marriage button...and the cycle continues.
 
I am not going to offer the solutions, because there have been some great proposals out there, I just want to say, no matter how you try, this argument that gets swept under the rug, crawls back out the other side and bites you in the arse, every time.

[Mantho]

[OOC...Please stay in character]

Wocib is the one who get it right. You all are completly OOYL - Out Of Yliakum Lore.
The question is IC - In Character, what is the wedding made for IC in Yliakum? What does it represent for Yliakumers? A basic principle, common to all races out of religion, politics or whatever consideration : mariadge is a tie, an OFFICIAL bound, between two people that wish a SOCIAL RECOGNITION of their relation.
And most certainly, IC, yliakumers are neutral concerning the same sex or not couple situation.

IC people never had any problem to celebrate weddings in Yliakum, be it hetero or homosexual. Yliakumers don't give a dam. Why are you all shoving actual real life debate in it?
It's a settings thing. Nothing more, nothing less. Keep your activism in your pocket or then were not done with every single debate that shake the world now and then.
We are not in medieval time, we are not in the world, we are in Yliakum. Get back IC, think IC to propose a FEATURE instead of making it a personnal business, darn it.
 

[Volki]

Get back IC, think IC to propose a FEATURE instead of making it a personnal business, darn it.

This is exactly what the players are trying to do, and the developers are refusing.

>mariadge is a tie, an OFFICIAL bound, between two people that wish a SOCIAL RECOGNITION of their relation.
>C people never had any problem to celebrate weddings in Yliakum, be it hetero or homosexual.

Do you not see how contradicting that is? Players roleplay that their characters marry, yet they are not guaranteed whether or not they are actually married by mechanics. If it's the government that refuses to recognize the marriage, then this should be clearly stated IC. It is not. To us it appears that the developers are trying to ignore this issue completely.

[Roled]

not a perfect allusion, but, well
another lesson from history for the "keep it in your pocket and be IC" folks... (such a metaphor - if you think about it,,, it makes me laugh )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Carta

Even IC "lore" which doesn't actually exist, can be changed. Someone invented electricity- and then lots of others thought of ways to use it for the betterment (perhaps) of the populus...

[Garris Shrike]

Curiously enough, Talad went back on March 25th and edited his original post.

 

[Roled]

Curiously enough, Talad went back on March 25th and edited his original post.

 

Garris- which post? I don't see it... and I would like to see it... Link? if you would please- thanks
RR