[player rp event] Speaking With the God/dess May 9th All Invited!

[Minks]

When did this stop being a game and became real? 

[Siteya]

From my experiences with Roled and being at the event, I do not believe that Roled was OOC, his character and his personal beliefs are the same in this situation, this is nothing new to the game, so many characters and their players carry similar beliefs. Roled was being Roled, what I will say is that he did want to bring up the question of marriage and legality on a platform of religion, I do believe he had planned to wait for the Q & A to do so, but as a host of the event he had to take the place of the Talad representative that was a no show, this not only through a wrench in his wanting to discuss marriage in the context of religion, but also put him in a compromised position to have to answer a question about Talad(ian) beliefs, which instead of faking it, in classic Roled fashion, he rallied with great passion. His monologue on marriage from a Talad perspective, did confuse folks at the event and feel off topic but not OOC. Also he did not rant against Talad the Dev of the game but Talad the God and religion. Unfortunately the event did end in a train wreck, but it was not because Roled was OOC.

[Rigwyn]

I'm speaking strictly as a player, so don't go misconstruing this as some kind of prospects vs gms kind of thing. The last time I commented on something like this, people got their panties in a twist and I ended up having some 'splainin to do....        *shakes fist*

The 10min break in Tua's log also happen to be the part where Roled went from IC'ly representing the god Talad to OOC'ly bashing the dev Talad. At this point for me the event was over and I am very disappointed that one of the rare cases that I DO make it to an event was ruined like this.

I wasn't there, but looking at the logs, it does not look like he went OOC if you read his posts literally and do not assign any additional assumptions to what he wrote. If you assume that he the player was talking about Talad the person then yes, it might look that way, but one has to be careful with making such assumptions and accidentally tainting the meaning of what was written.

I think challenging what he was saying in an in-character way was a good move on the part of those who did. After all, isn't that what a debate is?  From what logs were posted though, it looks like challenge did not have a chance to develop. Too bad.

So why did Roled suddenly leave the RP? He was the one who started this event, wasn't he? His post implies that he was prevented from continuing on with his IC tirade. Is it now a crime for a character to complain about stuff?

Again, I wasn't there, so I'm just asking.

[Shatterkiss]

Here's the missing section of the event:

(15:13:29) Tuathanach looks at Roled "you are ment to answer for Talad worship"
(15:13:38) [Channel] [1: gossip] Ecthion: Do lawyers ever get permission?!
(15:13:41) Sulaika watches Sarren closely, her eyes sharpening frowning as he bumps his shoulder into Jagzer's, seeming trained, wondering if she seen it right, her mouth dropping, it is not seen of course of concern or something else.
(15:13:48) [Channel] [1: gossip] Celroc: I can't stay real long. I have a job interview in a little bit
(15:14:02) Sulaika says: [if caused*]
(15:14:15) Roled turns red "Aye sir Tua but apparently Talad does not believe one like me should marry!"
(15:14:29) Evirea breathes out softly at Roled's remark, watching him quietly. For the most part the klyra seems confused, and she says nothing still.
(15:14:43) Roled shouts: "How can I speak fer Talad on this point when I do not believe it!?"
(15:15:02) Sarren turns around slightly to look to the stage as he is mentioned smiling to his father
(15:15:09) [Channel] [1: gossip] Rykia: Good luck, Celroc!
(15:15:13) [Channel] [1: gossip] Celroc: Thank you!
(15:15:20) [Channel] [1: gossip] Ecthion: oooh, nice! Good luck!
(15:15:31) [Channel] [1: gossip] Celroc: Thank you!
(15:15:34) [Channel] [1: gossip] Ecthion: If you need a reference, send 'em my way
(15:15:38) Siteya shakes her head and lowers it with an awkward frown replacing her comfortble smile.
(15:15:45) [Channel] [1: gossip] Ecthion: I'll tell 'em your the fuzziest menki that ever walked the Dome.
(15:15:45) Jagzer smiles knowingly and nods approvingly to Roled but remains silent
(15:15:50) Roled shouts: "How can I legally show my love if I canna have this license because it be not writ into the Octachs LAw???
(15:15:50) [Channel] [1: gossip] Evirea: "Celroc's a pretty cool cat. No really. A cat. Stop looking at me like that."
(15:15:56) [Channel] [1: gossip] Ecthion: XD
(15:16:02) [Channel] [1: gossip] Celroc makes note to put a Mr. Felagund on his reference list.
(15:16:12) [Channel] [1: gossip] Celroc: XD Thanks Evirea, can I use you as a reference too?
(15:16:42) [Channel] [1: gossip] Evirea: Go for it.
(15:17:38) [Channel] [1: gossip] Jagzer looks at Evirea intently with *Crazy Eyes*
(15:17:43) [Channel] [1: gossip] Celroc: Be sure to mention my DJ skills you guys!
(15:17:54) Poezza says: Tabei, what law?
(15:17:54) [Channel] [1: gossip] Evirea is far too used to people looking at her this way to be bothered.
(15:18:05) Sulaika just keeps herself quiet, turning again with Sarren, then leaning closer to whisper to him
(15:18:12) Evirea looks relieved as Poezza voices what she's been thinking.
(15:18:21) [Channel] [1: gossip] Celroc: I'd be careful about oogling the Evirea, Jagzer. Chays might see.
(15:18:41) [Channel] [1: gossip] Ihrenir: wait how did i help excactly? :-D
(15:18:42) Poezza says: Please show it to me, cause I have never ever read anything in the decree about marriage
(15:18:58) Roled says: Lady Poezza , I have read and re-red the Octarch's Decree. There are no rights to marriage....
(15:19:20) [Channel] [1: gossip] Jagzer: oogling Evirea? though she is pretty Kryla, there be another that has my rapt attention
(15:19:23) Roled says: There is a law against racism- in that our races can marry whom they wilt
(15:19:31) Siteya lifts her teary eyes, listening to the conversation carefully.
(15:19:48) Roled says: but no way fer kra to wed within the law, fer example
(15:20:00) [Channel] [1: gossip] Ecthion: Ihrenir, I was saying thanks for the wish of luck with finals
(15:20:09) Poezza says: Love has nothing to do with law tabei
(15:20:10) Roled says: And no way fer men to marry each other, or women each other, within the law
(15:20:17) [Channel] [1: gossip] Evirea: Evirea does get oggled a lot. She doesn't know why though. She just thinks she often has something on her face.
(15:20:37) [Channel] [1: gossip] Damola: Hi.
(15:20:45) [Channel] [1: gossip] Ihrenir: hi
(15:20:45) Evirea says: If the law mentions nothing whatsoever about marriage why are you assuming men cannot marry men.
(15:20:51) [Channel] [1: gossip] Sarren: low
(15:20:54) Roled says: But we be fashioned by the Gods! And the Gods , at least Talad and Xiosia, claim that love is the basis of oru land, and therefore of our laws
(15:20:55) [Channel] [1: gossip] Celroc: Maybe it's that nice warm klyran smile ;-)
(15:21:00) Eresae chews on his bottom lip as he looks down at his podium.
(15:21:00) [Channel] [1: gossip] Ecthion: LOL
(15:21:12) [Channel] [1: gossip] Ihrenir: also anyone who can give couple tefu hides?
(15:21:16) Poezza says: [sorry, but this is totally ooc.]
(15:21:21) Poezza says: [I am done]
(15:21:51) Roled stands , trembling, but stands still
(15:22:03) Orivan says: [Arrrgh. I crashed. Can anyone get me up to date?]
(15:22:05) >Orivan Katole takes a seat by Small Table.
(15:22:08) >Orivan Katole stands up.
(15:22:12) >Orivan Katole takes a seat by Small Table.
(15:22:26) Jagzer sighs and shrugs his shoulder turning to leave
(15:23:13) Evirea says to Roled, "I think this is a misunderstanding, Roled. Perhaps best discussed after this event in a more intimate setting. For now, we should commence with the discussion."
(15:23:18) Cheris nibbles on her pie
(15:23:22) Roled says: [and just for the record, I asked Wulfar, he agreed to speak, he didn't show, so I as organizer of the event
(15:23:30) >Orivan Katole stands up.
(15:23:32) >Orivan Katole takes a seat by Between the Worlds.
(15:23:37) Orivan says: [What happened? ]
(15:24:09) Roled says: [as organizer of the event I stepped in. RR was not planing to speak at all. Just to let you know Zunna. This is not ooc behavior]
(15:24:21) Siteya says: I have always governed myself by my own beliefs, not the Octarchy, but I do believe that if one should marry, they should be able to choose whom so they wish, with all the crime in this realm, how can the act of legalizing the love of two, be a concern of the Octarchy? Are we not capable of governing ourselves in the matters of love?
(15:24:26) Orivan says: [Urm. What's going on?!]
(15:24:27) Sulaika thinks hard,seeing Jagzer leaving, gazing to Sarren concern mirroring her face, "Sarren....you are tired we should get you to a room where you can rest."
(15:24:30) >Orivan Katole stands up.
(15:24:35) >Orivan Katole takes a seat by Between the Worlds.
(15:24:43) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: It is ooc because all you said is totaly ooc
(15:24:47) >Cheris Fowann stands up.
(15:24:49) Sarren nods to Sulaika and turns away from the crowd now
(15:24:54) [Channel] [1: gossip] Roled: IF you care RR is being warned of OOC behavoir for trying to discuss the inability of men tomarry in an IC context
(15:24:59) >Cheris Fowann picked up a Pie
(15:25:05) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: and you caled out Talad and we all know you weren't speaking of the god
(15:25:08) [Channel] [1: gossip] Roled: IF you care about Roled please let the GMS know
(15:25:10) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: don't play innocent :p
(15:25:18) [Channel] [1: gossip] Poezza: shut up roled
(15:25:18) >Orivan Katole stands up.
(15:25:25) [Channel] [1: gossip] Roled: Zunna I am not playing innocent
(15:25:29) Cheris slips away
(15:25:29) Orivan says: [Nothing OOC happened here as far as I see.]
(15:25:33) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: Saying marraidge between man/man or woman/woman isn't allowed is ooc
(15:25:35) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: IT IS ALLOWED
(15:25:45) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: there is no debate
(15:25:50) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: ffs stop making one there isn't any
(15:25:50) [Channel] [1: gossip] Roled: I called out the GOD TALADs following of kindness and peace and asked the questions what is kind about this?
(15:25:59) >Alvero Alenciar stands up.
(15:26:02) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: No you said why talad don't allow me to marry
(15:26:03) [Channel] [1: gossip] Ihrenir: see you later all!
(15:26:04) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: please
(15:26:15) [Channel] [1: gossip] Roled: I said it isnt in the law
(15:26:24) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: the wedding itself isn't i nthe law
(15:26:27) [Channel] [1: gossip] Roled: There is a law IC against racism
(15:26:27) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: why wont you hear
(15:26:33) Orivan says: [So why are we making this OOC?]
(15:26:35) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: no wedding is in the law
(15:26:41) [Channel] [1: gossip] Ratar: this is why I stopped following religion.
(15:26:44) >Orivan Katole takes a seat by Alvero Alenciar.
(15:26:46) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: people can marry w/e choice they made how is that hard to understand
(15:26:49) [Channel] [1: gossip] Roled: There is no IC law against homophobia and addressing unequal rights
(15:26:57) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: Can you read Roled ?
(15:27:00) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: stop a second and read
(15:27:07) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: everyone can marry END OF IT. there is no debate
(15:27:17) Roled says: [thankee Orivan]
(15:27:29) Tuathanach says: [back, my client crashed]
(15:27:43) Alvero says: (Np, welcome back )
(15:28:11) Orivan says: [Can we resume the event, then?]
(15:28:30) [Channel] [1: gossip] Arane: Straight-forward till another debate.
(15:28:38) [Channel] [1: gossip] Arane: Oh, good world, that never changes
(15:28:45) >Orivan Katole stands up.
(15:28:48) Alvero nods, putting down the books he picked up as he resolves to buy them after the event
(15:28:53) Tuathanach says: [did i miss much from when I last spoke, ie whwen roled was meant to answer talad question]
(15:29:07) >Alvero Alenciar takes a seat.
(15:29:07) >Alvero Alenciar stands up.
(15:29:07) >Alvero Alenciar takes a seat.
(15:29:30) Eresae sighs "So... do any of you have any further questions for us on our religions?"

[Roled]

I appreciate Shatterkiss for posting the gossip/chat log. I didn't do that because I hadn't asked those who made comments for permission to post their comments... I was in the process of redacting the gossip to take out unrelated comments, but, thanks Shatterkiss.

I do see the continued argument between RR's player and Zunna in gossip was not included, especially the part where I petitioned formally that Talad the developer rescind the OOC warning that Zunna issued against me and the part where because of this gossip discussion RR was prevented from continuing his role play ICly in order to refute Zunna's inaccurate assumptions and attempts to "warn" RR's player for my "manners".  So I will continue as I have time to finish the redaction and post it when I have done so.

Simultaneously I plan to petition Talad the Developer to formally rescind the warning.  I plan to copy that petition to all the GMs.

Minks it became real for me twice- first when I discovered that there exists a mechanics that discriminates against certain characters from something other gendered characters can do- and no amount of questing or IC behavior can change that mechanic, nor were the powers willing to change it. Second philosophically, immediately after my post and request on that issue, Eonwind states that there is no same sex marriage in Yliakum, and that any and every same sex marriage in Yliakum MUST be considered OOC.

I don't agree.

Minks, if the real question behind this is "Why do I care?" I offer the famous quote from Martin Niemoller:

"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me. "

This is why I care... RR of course doesn't know this poem. He only knows that he can not LEGALLY under the laws of Yliakum (the Decree is silent, see my other's post's legal reasoning for the necessity of including civil rights on this issue in the Decree) marry his sweetheart and he thinks that is LEGALLY not fair to citizens of the Dome. And he doesn't understand why a land formed by the GOD TALAD who purports to believe in kindness and peace would allow HIS CREATED WORLD to continue to adhere to such unkindness - especially his unkindness towards the relationships of love that his created race, the kran, are also unable to access. This is what Roled thinks ICly. Thanks Siteya and Rigwyn for your comments.

Anyway thanks Shatterkiss, I am all for transparency.
RR
[modified to add the poem and my commentary on the poem]

[Rigwyn]

(15:25:33) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: Saying marraidge between man/man or woman/woman isn't allowed is ooc
(15:25:35) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: IT IS ALLOWED


Characters are allowed to be incorrect about things, and being incorrect does not make a character OOC.  It's also common for writers to express themselves or things from real life through their characters. The flow of inspiration from real life to character is pretty common.

If Roled the character made an explicit reference to Talad the person, then I would definitely label that as OOC. In this case, the player and in-game deity share the same name, so accidental equivocation can happen all too easily.

I would like to suggest an alternative method for dealing with this sort of situation as using force usually ends up with pissed off players.

As a player, I would have had one of my characters push Roled the character into substantiating his claim. I probably would have asked him *when* and *where* Talad said this to him, or I might have accused him of being drunk or full of crap. This kind of pushing back is all IC and can steer the story towards consistency if you think that it is going awry. It is possible too that Roled has a reason for saying these things that we are not yet aware of, so its important to give him a chance and allow the misunderstanding to play out.

Often with my role plays, I'll do things that seem to be irrational, but then allow the underlying reasons to show later on in the story. For those following a story like this, the feeling of discovering something that was previously hidden or left a mystery can be pleasing.

[Eonwind]

This post will be long ... AND I assume this post itself might spark more debate. Which is real.

Roled I was not making assumptions speaking about the GM roles and duties, mine was a statement not under debate for sure.

Looks like you have a personal issue with some peoples, therefore we invite you to solve personal issues directly by joining #planeshift-gmtalk. We'll be glad to speak with you to solve any personal issue.

I'm speaking strictly as a player, so don't go misconstruing this as some kind of prospects vs gms kind of thing. The last time I commented on something like this ...

Rigwyn: that's why you're not a moderator or a GM

[verden]

The quote from reverend Martin Neimoller I feel is sort of jumping the shark. Nobody is talking about Nazi tactics to censure, or worse, the characters in PS. But where does it end? Should we put the people against, or for, gay marriage into camps? Why even bring up the Nazis? One of the reasons people may not like this sort of discussion is because things are always taken to these hideous extremes. Its not the same situation by any reasonable stretch of the imagination. When I play PS, it is to have a respite from the world… none of this makes me want to play PS.

[Demagul Riwe]

May I suggest, to end this conflict (hopefully) once and for all, what if we had an OOC event in the courthouse, where this matter could be discussed. To prevent people who don't want to hear it from coming, you could have it so they have to /t a GM to get in, and if anyone comes just to troll (not just voicing a strong opinion. There's a difference) they can be teleported outside again.

While I do side strongly with those who want the button removed, I'm thinking from a neutral perspective right now. Some people insisting that this matter is addressed immediately, and others just want this debate to quiet down. It's clear that PS wants an official OOC debate where we all have an equal voice,  and this idea could be that.

[Roled]

Demagul thanks
While I appreciate the suggestion to de-escalate, I have no faith that an OOC discussion in game would achieve any results of equity
1) the timezone issue
2) the failures of OOC discussion, like in the forum  posts, of being shut down
3) the propensity of Eonwind to discredit any suggestion that he is not all powerful
4) the assumption that GMs "know more" about role playing than players
5) the recalcitrance of hegemony

But maybe you all can think of another way to actually discuss the power over issues assumed by certain people?

Verden- Poems are poems- metaphoric, even when tied to a place and a time. For example, the majestic Ulysses by Alfred, Lord Tennyson.  Check the final couplet. http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/174659

In the USA right now the Supreme Court is considering whether gender neutral marriages are legal under the Constitution.  Earlier this year Mexico's supreme court found that gender neutral marriage is legal. The topic could not be more immediate.

[Rigwyn]

Roled, I wouldn't bother trying to discuss this with them, that sounds like a waste of time. You made your point and the logs back you up. Case closed.

The next time this happens, you should just send a tell to each player involved and invite them into a private group so you can continue to play in /group without interference.

I'll send you this message via other means just in case it gets deleted.

[Pierre]

Gods have mercy.

The logs back you up, big time.  Eonwind, this is not a personal issue.  This is a player-led RP that got derailed because GM(s?) did not understand what you have clearly stated - NO SAME-SEX MARRIAGE UNDER THE DOME.

Big time apologies in order.  It's not that hard to do, I do it myself more frequently than I would like to (because I mess up more frequently than I wish to).

Roled, sorry on many levels - the event derailed, some serious rudeness in gossip (I would have blown my top), and even here still people not discussing in good faith at times. 

Eonwind, you KNOW that we know that all RP events, including player-run, are in some sense intertwined with GMs (you would say under GM supervision/control, I would say they ensure it is smooth, not disrupted, and fun, either way the substance is the same) - it's not some damn free for all orgy cuss fest just because it is player-run.  We know that, you know that.  Why so heavy-handed?  It makes things so much worse.  .

The logs are damning.  I disagree with Rig that it is a waste of time to discuss further, but I appreciate his comments.

[Roled]

Redacted gossip log

* I will start this log from the ending point of the log Shatterkiss already posted, to complete the record
* I have not included the comments of people who were not part of the discussion, since I don't have their permission to be identified. Instead I have left the time stamp to indicate that someone else typed something.
* If you made a comment during the redacted times and would like to add your comment then feel free. There were interesting discussions and disagreements during this argument, but again I do not feel free to post other people's comments without their permissions
* For a few comments directly relating to the argument between Zunna and Roled to which Zunna or Roled responded directly,  I have left the time stamp and the comment but redacted the name of the speaker
* All comments in gossip from Zunna and Roled have been left intact
* Please remember Shatterkiss' log is a different time zone from Roled's
* I have included Roleds IC comment from 13:11:56 since Zunna's next comment, in gossip, directly referred to Roled's comment IC.
RR

================================================
Sat 09-May-2015 11:23:28 Roled Rolak  I signed in
------------------------------------------------
 
(13:11:56) Roled shouts: Twas what I were trying to say. Rights... the right to be friends with those ye chose, or to adopt one ye loves, like my fine son Sarren, or en to transform power over, as Siteya spoke of Xiosia. So, I do think that because there are several gods and goddesses... well, only the Rights of Indivduals should be honored above the Gods. Fer example, I have been married to my love, Lattia, who be dead now, truely dead, fer some 3 cycles. So now I wish to marry my lover and my friend... Sir T I shall call him. Priestess Siteya will certainly marry us, won't ye? But yet, when I spoke wiht the Guard Mogrrim he did say that no, I must petition the Octarch for a license to make our marriage legal under the Laws as well as the Gods. So I aske ye all as my witnesses... to please sign with me to ask the Octarch to license the marriages of anyone to anyone, as they wish.... with race nor gender being a hindrance for a legal wedding!" Roled begins talking faster and faster, his passion growing. "Will ye help me please? Anyone??? As Sir Eresae says, we can change the laws as needed, can't we?"
(13:12:12) [Channel] [1: gossip]
(13:12:26) [Channel] [1: gossip]
(13:12:43) [Channel] [1: gossip]
(13:12:53) [Channel] [1: gossip]
(13:13:07) [Channel] [1: gossip]
(13:13:46) [Tell] Zunna tells you: [ Roled.. Mogrrim saif you need a license like for every other marriadge... you exagerate.]
(13:15:07) [Guild] Tuathanach has quit
(13:15:13) Roled shouts: "How can I speak fer Talad on this point when I do not believe it!?"
(13:15:39) [Channel] [1: gossip]
(13:15:43) [Channel] [1: gossip]
(13:15:50) [Channel] [1: gossip]
(13:16:01) [Channel] [1: gossip]
(13:16:04) [Channel] [1: gossip]
(13:16:15) [Channel] [1: gossip]
(13:16:20) Roled shouts: "How can I legally show my love if I canna have this license because it be not writ into the Octachs LAw???
(13:16:20) [Channel] [1: gossip]
(13:16:26) [Channel] [1: gossip]
(13:16:32) [Channel] [1: gossip]

(13:16:42) [Channel] [1: gossip]
(13:16:51) [Tell] Zunna tells you: [ You are completly ooc Roled. Are you sure you want to do that to your char ? lol ]

(13:17:12) [Channel] [1: gossip]
(13:18:08) [Channel] [1: gossip]
(13:18:13) [Channel] [1: gossip]
(13:18:25) [Channel] [1: gossip]
(13:18:51) [Channel] [1: gossip]
(13:19:11) [Channel] [1: gossip]
(13:19:50) [Channel] [1: gossip]
(13:19:53) Roled says: There is a law against racism- in that our races can marry whom they wilt

(13:20:18) Roled says: but no way fer kra to wed within the law, fer example
(13:20:30) [Channel] [1: gossip]
(13:20:48) [Channel] [1: gossip]
(13:21:07) [Channel] [1: gossip]
(13:21:15) [Channel] [1: gossip]
(13:21:21) [Channel] [1: gossip]
(13:21:24) Roled says: But we be fashioned by the Gods! And the Gods , at least Talad and Xiosia, claim that love is the basis of oru land, and therefore of our laws
(13:21:25) [Channel] [1: gossip]

(13:21:30) [Channel] [1: gossip]
(13:21:42) [Channel] [1: gossip]
(13:23:47) >GM warning from Zunna: I am warning you for OOC behavior in main. Truly disappointed.
(13:23:48)
(13:23:52) Roled says: [and just for the record, I asked Wulfar, he agreed to speak, he didn't show, so I as organizer of the event
(13:24:39) Roled says: [as organizer of the event I stepped in. RR was not planing to speak at all. Just to let you know Zunna. This is not ooc behavior]

(13:25:14) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: It is ooc because all you said is totaly ooc
(13:25:25) [Channel] [1: gossip] Roled: IF you care RR is being warned of OOC behavoir for trying to discuss the inability of men tomarry in an IC context
(13:25:35) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: and you caled out Talad and we all know you weren't speaking of the god
(13:25:38) [Channel] [1: gossip] Roled: IF you care about Roled please let the GMS know
(13:25:40) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: don't play innocent :p
(13:25:48) [Channel] [1: gossip]
(13:25:56) [Channel] [1: gossip] Roled: Zunna I am not playing innocent
(13:26:00) O== says: [Nothing OOC happened here as far as I see.]
(13:26:02) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: Saying marraidge between man/man or woman/woman isn't allowed is ooc
(13:26:05) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: IT IS ALLOWED
(13:26:16) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: there is no debate
(13:26:20) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: ffs stop making one there isn't any
(13:26:20) [Channel] [1: gossip] Roled: I called out the GOD TALADs following of kindness and peace and asked the questions what is kind about this?
(13:26:32) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: No you said why talad don't allow me to marry
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(13:26:34) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: please
(13:26:37) [Guild] Tuathanach just joined PlaneShift
(13:26:45) [Channel] [1: gossip] Roled: I said it isnt in the law
(13:26:55) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: the wedding itself isn't i nthe law
(13:26:57) [Channel] [1: gossip] Roled: There is a law IC against racism
(13:26:57) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: why wont you hear
(13:27:06) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: no wedding is in the law
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(13:27:16) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: people can marry w/e choice they made how is that hard to understand
(13:27:19) [Channel] [1: gossip] Roled: There is no IC law against homophobia and addressing unequal rights
(13:27:27) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: Can you read Roled ?
(13:27:30) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: stop a second and read
(13:27:38) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: everyone can marry END OF IT. there is no debate
(13:27:58) Tuathanach says: [back, my client crashed]
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(13:29:24) Tuathanach says: [did i miss much from when I last spoke, ie whwen roled was meant to answer talad question]
(13:30:00) [Group] Roled says: hahah did you miss much, just RR getting warned by Zunna for being OOC when RR was not being ooc that's all
(13:30:00) Eresae sighs "So... do any of you have any further questions for us on our religions?" [this is where Shatterkiss' log entry in the forum post ended
(13:30:39) [Channel] [1: gossip] Roled: Zunna I am playing by the rules here

(13:30:45) [Group] E----- says: He was off topic, but not OOC... besides he's an excitable elf and jumps to conclussions quickly.
(13:30:56) [Channel] [1: gossip] Roled: Roled believes he cannot marry a man legally and he said so

(13:31:07) [Channel] [1: gossip] Roled: ROLED BELIEVES IT!
(13:31:17) [Channel] [1: gossip] Roled: How can you possibly say this isn't ic?

(13:32:55) [Channel] [1: gossip] Roled: It is a true point of contention for RR because he believes in the laws AND in Xiosia- and which one is he supposed to follow.

(13:33:39) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: Roled you perfectly know what you are doing. it's ok you have a cause , you stand for it etc. There is just way to do it and i bet Roled knows about this all more rthen anyone since he could hilself marry without any trouble
(13:33:42) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: So please.
(13:34:19) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: Now let's not waste this vry insteresting event you pulled out and continu on the God/dess topic
(13:34:32) [Channel] [1: gossip] Roled: Define 'trouble " Zunna

(13:36:14) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: Well i bet no one asked you to stop this, that it wasn't allowed ic , etc

(13:36:22) [Channel] [1: gossip] Roled: I want to formally lodge a protest that you ZUnna gave me an unwarrented OOC warning, I would like the OOC warning to be removed and recinded.

(13:36:33) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna:
(13:37:03) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: And i would like you to understand that it wont work this way if you want to moove forward. In general when yo ucharge people they don't exactly appreciate

(13:37:19) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: i am not judging the cause, only the manners

(13:38:11) [Channel] [1: gossip] Roled: How then with due respect do I formally ask the GM Zunna to remove and recind the OOC warning against Roled?

(13:38:28) [Channel] [1: gossip] Venalan: That can only happen with someone editing the DB, so talad
(13:38:35) [Channel] [1: gossip] Roled: I have used no "vulgar" words

(13:39:20) [Channel] [1: gossip] Roled: Then Venalan how do I Formally and Respectfually petition for the removal of the OOC WArning? What is the process?

(13:39:38) [Channel] [1: gossip] Venalan: Dunno, no one has ever asked for a warning to be removed
(13:39:51) [Channel] [1: gossip] Venalan: Find talad on IRC and ask him I suppose

(13:39:56) [Group] Roled says: I am fighting it out in respectful words in gossip

(13:41:12) [Channel] [1: gossip] Roled: Well when one is accused of something one hasn't done, and accused by a POWER postition like a GM, how does a puny little player get it done. AND of course timing is everything... I have to be at work in 20 minutes so I now have to go

(13:41:36) [Channel] [1: gossip] Roled: AND my irc doesn't wor well, hardly ever manage toget into irc
(13:41:46) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: Roled, i donr't think we are particularly overwheming or Harassing. But you perfectly know that you are kind of searching it when you act like you did.
(13:41:55) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: So assume also a little, please.

(13:42:13) [Channel] [1: gossip] Roled: Zunna you cannot assume what I am thinking PLEASE that is the ultimate god mod
(13:42:13) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: I told you in tell in a long convo how it could have been made but you didn't cared too much

(13:42:31) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: i don't i am reacting toward your bahavior

(13:42:46) [Channel] [1: gossip] Roled: ROLED wasn't even goning to speak! But he did and he spoke his heart and thoughts IN CHARACTER and I an not being badly behaved!

(13:42:57) [Channel] [1: gossip] Roled: I am being respectful
(13:43:09) [Channel] [1: gossip] Roled: I have not called anyone names

(13:43:23) [Channel] [1: gossip] Roled: I have not told YOU what I assume YOU think

(13:43:27) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: it's not for insult that youhave been warned
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(13:43:43) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: You are o na stage i nfront of a crowd of people ,maybe newcomers and you claim that people cannot marry ?
(13:43:49) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: don't you see the problem ?
(13:44:08) [Channel] [1: gossip] Roled: How can you say I didn't care too much? You are absolutely wrong about this Zunna ABSOLUTELY wrong about what I think and what I care about
(13:44:14) [Channel] [1: gossip] Roled: Don't you see the problem??
(13:44:22) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: Well you made it pretty clear before.

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(13:44:57) Roled mutters "Xiosia be a true Goddess. I have seen Her."
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(13:45:00) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: ic : marriadge is allowed. there is NO DEBATE
(13:45:07) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: yes they can
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(13:45:33) [Group] Roled says: Zunna is now telling me how I think and what I feel
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(13:45:55) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: Exact

(13:45:58) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: there is it
(13:46:02) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: simply and round
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(13:46:11) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: IC = no debate

At this point several other people joined the debate, some on one side, some on the other, some frustrated, some engaged, and several good questions were asked and points were made -RR
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(13:47:31) Roled says "Um Sorry to interrupt, Sir Tua, but I have to leave... " Roled looks at the questioner in the audience. "Sir, um, Sir, the nature of being a Goddess is I suppose having powers and abilities and insights well beyond mortals, and then perhaps using those powers and abilities for some... some ethical construct, I suppose..."
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(13:48:57) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: lol Sorry R-----  (Zunna responded to another player whos name starts with R, not to Roled- RR)
(13:48:58) [Channel] [1: gossip] Roled: A----- and a permit comes from the law and the law does not specifically allo it
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(13:49:15) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: it does not specifically forbid it either
(13:49:16) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: com'on
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(13:49:37) Roled says: Fer give me please, I be... called elsewhere
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(13:49:52) Roled bows and leaves, wiping at his eyes
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(13:50:05) [Channel] [1: gossip] Zunna: O.O
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(13:51:07) [Group] Roled says: I got an OOC warning for my IC rp
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(13:51:18) [Group] Roled says: and now I am late for work so I gotta go
(13:51:22) [Group] Roled says: thanks you all
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(13:52:06) [Channel] [1: gossip] Roled: Please know I am logging ONLY because I am late for work.
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(13:52:39) [Channel] [1: gossip] Roled: Again Venalan and Zunna I am formally requesting that you remove the OOC warning you issued to Roled
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(13:52:52) [Channel] [1: gossip] Venalan: Talk to talad Roled
(13:52:53) [Channel] [1: gossip] Roled: FORMALLY REQUESTING IT AGAIN
(13:53:00) [Channel] [1: gossip] Roled: PLEASE CONVEY TO TALAD
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(13:53:25) [Channel] [1: gossip] Roled: I am so disappointed in Zunna's telling me how he thinks I think or I feel
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(13:53:33) [Channel] [1: gossip] Roled: I am late for work.

[Donari Tyndale]

While I appreciate the event, the GMs unasked moderation of Roled's speech was quite annoying.

First of all, what Roled said was IC. There's no arguing it. It might be related to some OOC context, but it certainly was not not IC. Whatever Roled the character says is for his player to decide.

Secondly, Zunna warning Roled was way off. I think an apology is due here. GMs shouldn't moderate RP based on if they find some link to OOC stuff, only if the OOC content is beyond doubt (i.e. if Roled mentioned the PS forum discussion, which he clearly did not.). Or do we have to fear now that the GMs monitor each and every RP for possible OOC context?

Lastly, I don't think anyone besides Zunna took offense, another type of behaviour GMs should be above. If no one complains and no RL laws are violated, go away. I think Zunna should apologize to Roled for what he did.

[verden]

Oh I see, its just some poem. So you use a loaded quotation on purpose, and then deny the significance of it. You know exactly what you posted.