RolePlay

[Aramara Meibi]

riggypoo, deary, by your own logic, do not engage with kaerli, you will not win.

[Rigwyn]

But its not about winning or losing... its about the journey, and when you are deadlocked the journey stalls.

[Aramara Meibi]

true.

i wrote something somewhere on this forum about an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object... i've forgotten what it was exactly, but i'm sure it's applicable here...

i've learned somewhere along my journey that if you meet a dead end, you go on looking for another way around. i've pounded my fists to bloody pulps too many times to ever want to do it again. there's always another option.

[Rigwyn]

Once there was an elephant and a rhinoceros. The elephant was unstoppable when he was on the run and when the rhinoceros wanted to stay where he was...he was immovable. The elephant knew that. One day the elephant decided to charge the rhinoceros. You know what happened? They killed each other.

[Zalya]

Yet, at the same time -- competition is an innate part of the human mindset -- a world without it is artificial, hollow, stagnant, and eventually dysfunctional.  Despite this, I have found no way to accurately emulate a competitive character without being a competitive player, at least to some degree...

There's nothing wrong with competition in a competitive game, literary role playing is not really geared for competition. The next closest thing would be dicing. I would suggest going with that, but I know you, and I know that even with dice, you will try to come up with all sorts of reasons why your character should not suffer *significant* damage.

Oh, she would have dodged that.
She would have seen that coming. She has eyes on the back of her head.
She can blink out and back in when something really terrible is about to happen to her.
She would just know what you were about to do and would have avoided you altogether.
Yeah, ok... that 3 ton boulder landed on her head. Ok.. she has a mild flesh wound. A blemish... on a hidden spot.

I'm sorry, but I'm gonna call a spade a spade here. You can call it an upside down black heart if you like, but we all know this is a spade.

I get the impression that you view the ooc negotiation and determination of damage as part of the game and as an area where competition should exist. I don't think most folks would agree with that. For someone like yourself, I would strongly recommend PVP with no ic or ooc chat instead of role play fights.

Here's the thing -- you are making the mistake of thinking that whatever "trick" your character has (whether it be a spell, an attack technique, or what-have-you) exempts you from the mental chess game of combat.  Why do people like Asmo, Suno, Phenha/Fuusan, and Mishka/Jocas have no trouble laying down damage on Kaerli?  It's because they're going through the mental chess game to do so, instead of trying to OOCly bypass it.

This post has revealed a lot about why you ask so many questions about roleplaying. You're trying to play chess, while everyone else is playing party games. You're going to have a really tough time playing this game if you're playing by the rules of another. Roleplaying is inherently collaborative. It can only exist if both parties are willing to cooperate. This is especially true for tense situations like combat. You need to be able to trust the person on the other side of the computer screen to be fair, reasonable, and fun. The joy of roleplaying, at least for me, comes from working together with others to push the limits of my own imagination. Trying to compete in roleplaying is like trying to play Spatoon while painting the Sistine Chapel. All you'll do is make people frustrated. Roleplaying with someone who doesn't take their hits makes me frustrated, conned, and just generally upset. Which is why I avoid anyone with that reputation. Maybe it makes me petty, but honestly, I'd rather feel petty than betrayed.

You can call it whatever you like. Mental Chess, technique, strategy. You can use whatever meta-gamey terminology that suits your taste, but it doesn't change the fact that I, and many other roleplayers (back me up here other roleplayers) think that treating roleplay as something you can win or lose is downright icky. It's not like it's bad to like competition. There are plenty of successful activities that are very competitive. Roleplaying is not one of them. Which really begs the question, are you really here to roleplay, or just play strategy games with unwilling participants?

To broaden that question, and maybe get this thread back on track a little bit, I ask all roleplayers the simple, but burning question.

Why do you roleplay?

[Volki]

Wait. Most of the times I've roleplayed it's been competitive. That's excluding PS. Once upon a time, I roleplayed on forums, and there was a goal of winning, either by survival or killing the opponent. It was what Kaerli described: mental chess. Back then I viewed roleplaying itself as a game and an art, somewhat like what you would consider sparring in martial arts. I still think of it the same way, but most people on PS do not hold that same opinion, and it's been so long since I've been able to read books and long forum posts without frustration that I've lost the motivation to roleplay as much or as well as I used to. I haven't actively pursued that kind of roleplay for a while.

I understand what Kaerli has written. (Now, at last, since I've only been able to check in here occasionally and somehow misread the entirety of the last page LOL.) When Kull had returned sometime last year and was causing trouble, I was excited to join in on his roleplays. However, the climate of the roleplay scene on PS did not allow him to play to his full potential, and he left because he felt unwelcome. I do not like how he was treated by some of the players here. Now, it is expected that you have full control of your characters, to the point that they can be possessed by stupidity incarnate, throw themselves into a death guaranteed, and then somehow emerge alive despite making every effort not to. Your characters may be physically damaged and mentally traumatized, but if that's all you're willing to do, that's boring.

Roleplay in Planeshift is lacking. It's lacking the gut instincts of fear and excitement. I miss having those moments where I think, "My character could die right now." Many of you will think I'm crazy for saying it, but you have no idea what you're missing.

Kaerli was OP as all hell get out, tho. Facts be facts.

[Rigwyn]

I think what you are describing Volki, and correct me if I am mistaken, is where the characters are competitive, but the players are cooperative. Yes, you feel danger, you start to worry about what might happen to your character, but despite that, you do the right thing and play fairly anyway - even if it means that you are forced to watch your charcter suffer and burn.

I think that sort of excitement is awesome, but imho it only happens when you have ooc cooperation. It only happens when players play fairly. When they take their damage and do believable things. When doing this, sometimes you let things slide a little if you think it might contribute to the story. I might let your character pull off an incredible move at the expense of my character if I think it would be really awesome for your character to succeed in that move. In this case there is both attachment ( I want my character to succeed and win ) yet there is also detachment ( I am willing to do what is best for the story/rp even if it means losing to some extent )

When one or both players have a weird fetish for *winning* the conflict at any cost, when they put the advancement of their own character ahead of everything else, when they are willing to lie and cheat in order to *win*, these awesome things don't happen.  You end up with a boring deadlock or else one player says screw it and lets the other win just so they can terminate the rp and go do something more interesting.

[Jilerel]

Why do you roleplay?

Roleplaying because it's fun. It's like a huge theater, where everyone has its roles and plays them in improvisation, and when we disconnect, it's like we're watching the movie of our play, thinking of how we can improve, what things will interest the public (the players)...

[Donari Tyndale]

There's no winning in roleplay, as it always goes on and on and on. You might have defeated your opponent in the battle, but what's the point? There'll come another. And another after that.
In my eyes, you have to embrace the end of characters as loosing can be fun if you just open your eyes. The two most epic moments in PlaneShift I had was the end of two characters I at that point would have considered "main". I sat there in sheer amazement as the awesome rp unfolded that eventually lead to the end of those two. It was way better than a movie.

[Cairn]

Roleplaying is inherently collaborative. It can only exist if both parties are willing to cooperate.
To broaden that question, and maybe get this thread back on track a little bit, I ask all roleplayers the simple, but burning question.
Why do you roleplay?

I picked and chose a little from your quote, Zalya, but I love it

That's really the key, and that's where I think OOCly if you adopt that chess-game strategy, you're not giving anyone a fair shot. Ever. Your character can fight to win, but if YOU are fighting to win, instead of playing to collaborate...well, other people have explained it far better than I can anyways


Thanks for keeping this thread going guys. It is so cool to see so many different opinions and thoughts and ideas put into the light!

Why do I roleplay?

I role-play to tell and be a part of stories. It is immensely satisfying to me to simply create a character and see what other people are doing. The most fun I have is when I get swept up in someone else's RP and get to peel those onion layers, find out something new, or just marvel at the mystery of what's going on.

@Donari: 2nded. I love it!

@Rigwyn: Lol 

[Kaerli_Stronwylle]

I've seen you pull some things that completely defy reason in the past in order to avoid damage. I won't pull up old logs to prove what I'm saying, I don't think there's any need.... well, that and the old Outlaws site was been taken down a few years ago due to inactivity.     Anyway, I admit that I take damage too easily, but to me, standing there all day going blow for blow and constantly missing, blocking, causing teeny-tiny scratches, and hand-waving reasonable damage with illogical and unbelievable excuses is not my idea of letting the story progress or of being competitive for that matter. Perhaps this is something that Mishka, Phenha, Suno and Amso enjoy, perhaps they see this as epic and bad-ass or something. I really don't know. If they do, then that's fantastic; you have finally found your crowd. Maybe it's me - perhaps I don't really like combat RP all that much or I have a strange idea of what combat RP should be like.

At the same time -- you have to deal with the problem of expectancy -- if you are playing into your opponent's lap with what you're doing, you shouldn't expect to win.  I will admit that I sometimes had a habit of overabstracting biomechanics out, though -- it's very easy to do when you've learned most of what you know about RPing fighting from RPing fighting.

[Geoni]

Why do you roleplay?

I'd have to say that I RP for my characters. I enjoy the process of creating and designing a character, adding a strong level of depth and conflict to their current situation, and then beginning their current story to see what they're made of. It is for this reason I enjoy both writing and RPing. The difference between the two is that the latter isn't strictly controlled and decided on like the narrative of a story or novel would be - instead it is left to the world in which they're cast in, their chemistry with other played characters, and what other people do with their characters that involve your own. RP is very much its own art - it is the combination of writing, improvisation, and acting.

I've been doing it for seven years now, and I can say that the downside to RP overall is everyone having different tastes and the need for there to be enough people with close enough taste to agree on a storyline or RP. So what general writing has that RP doesn't is security in what you want, which is very important when you have something to say and a unique way of saying it, with the trade-off of the story having a sense of death once you publish it: it's like something in review, that had a beginning and an end.

At the end of the day, I find that both writing and RP compliment each other very well and I can't find myself giving RP up despite all of my qualms with getting things going with other people. People who RP extend themselves into their characters, which you are forced to interact with with your own characters, so it's as if you've got people presenting the things they hold dearest to themselves and we all put these feelings in the same space to see what happens, without too much restriction (at least in a narrative sense).

[Jilerel]

RPing fighting is a complex matter. It can be fun IF, and ONLY IF the player accepts the fails of the character. You can play competitive, but as soon as you don't assume that you made a fault, the RP is dead.

[Kaerli_Stronwylle]

I think what you are describing Volki, and correct me if I am mistaken, is where the characters are competitive, but the players are cooperative. Yes, you feel danger, you start to worry about what might happen to your character, but despite that, you do the right thing and play fairly anyway - even if it means that you are forced to watch your charcter suffer and burn.

I think that sort of excitement is awesome, but imho it only happens when you have ooc cooperation. It only happens when players play fairly. When they take their damage and do believable things. When doing this, sometimes you let things slide a little if you think it might contribute to the story. I might let your character pull off an incredible move at the expense of my character if I think it would be really awesome for your character to succeed in that move. In this case there is both attachment ( I want my character to succeed and win ) yet there is also detachment ( I am willing to do what is best for the story/rp even if it means losing to some extent )

When one or both players have a weird fetish for *winning* the conflict at any cost, when they put the advancement of their own character ahead of everything else, when they are willing to lie and cheat in order to *win*, these awesome things don't happen.  You end up with a boring deadlock or else one player says screw it and lets the other win just so they can terminate the rp and go do something more interesting.

It's not that I seek to win every last conflict any of my characters get into, or that I do not ever want to engage in cooperative play -- it's that I expect driven play.  I expect cooperation and collaboration to be goal-oriented and focused, relying on disciplined communications and close sharing of mental models to the point where nothing happens without everyone "having the flick" about the task and the situation it is set in.  Furthermore, without that drivenness, I really have no driving force to keep me invested in what my character is doing, or what the situation surrounding them is.

Kaerli's combat drivenness stems from that combining with a martially oriented character.  I've tried combining that penchant for driven play with other character archetypes on many occasions; yet invariably, the result is a character that the community (or the Settings team sigh) seems unwilling or unable to accept.  Why?

[Rigwyn]

I've tried combining that penchant for driven play with other character archetypes on many occasions; yet invariably, the result is a character that the community (or the Settings team sigh) seems unwilling or unable to accept.  Why?

Just for clarity, when I speak, I speak for myself, not for the settings team.

Regarding your question, is it possible that your idea of super-competitive play might be flawed? I'm not saying it is, but if *the community* as you put it, is saying that you are overly competitive at the ooc level, then maybe you might want to listen to what they are saying and consider the possibility that they might be right about this. Then again, it's entirely possible that *the community* is just wrong about it.

It's really hard to do combat based RP without running into some kind of friction. Either you run into someone overpowered, invulnerable, unrealistic, or someone who takes offense or whatever. For this reason, I now try to focus more on the story than on the combat. I can lose a fight and still tell a good story in the process. I would rather do that than win a fight and mess up the story in the process. That's just my own personal way of working though this problem.