Author Topic: Extra Credits - How Games Condition People to Play More  (Read 3502 times)

Illysia

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Extra Credits - How Games Condition People to Play More
« on: October 19, 2016, 12:37:23 am »
Extra Credits - How Games Condition People to Play More
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWtvrPTbQ_c&list=PLB9B0CA00461BB187&index=18

I think this video is good at breaking down how games provide incentives for players to play. I also mostly agree with it. However, I will part ways with it on one count. Mechanics that compel people to play instead of engage them should not be verboten; they just need to be used in moderation. 

Please, take 7 mins and watch the video then we can discuss how it applies to PS.

All games reasonably provide incentives for gameplay. This helps to ease the player into playing naturally. However, when I look at PS, I think it may need some help in this regard. I know I'm not familiar with all the changes that happened while I was gone, but I think it’s safe to say PS needs more incentives to do various things once the player is let loose in the world.

Now, what incentives could PS use? In the video it speaks of operant conditioning and rewards schedules. In more direct terms I’d say, PS needs to reward players for using the mechanics. The video spoke of one method as rewarding the player after they have done an action a random number of times. I think I know one way to work similar system into more of PS. Disclaimer: This following is said on the assumption that crafting in PS hasn’t changed significantly in some time, maybe more professions but the mechanics stayed the same.

Let’s skip the description of the rare system in Wurm Online, and I’ll just give my PS specific idea on this. Set aside a group of mundane item modifiers for various crafting skills, or make some if you like, and let them be applied during the crafting process. It will make crafting more fun. Now by mundane I mean non magical/enchant modifers such as “shiny” for metal items, “delicious” for food items, “ornate” for more decorative items.

By giving a random chance to grant a modifier on completed transformations, the game will help curb the tedium of crafting by adding a rewarding “win” in the middle of making items. It’s a bit like little wins while gambling; it’s not a jackpot, but it distracts you from how much you have to do this action to accomplish your goals. It also sets up a certain amount of “will it, won’t it” anticipation towards the completion of the items.

These modifier should be applicable to any craftable part, like soups that can be combined with further ingredients and ingots. This is so the system can give parts a chance to apply their modifier to the next item up the production chain. So a sturdy ingot or stock has the chance to make a sturdy blade and so on. I’d just say put a limit on how many modifiers any object can have. Maybe 3 or so like looted items.

What this does for a game is it gives incentive to craft to see what comes out of the gamble and it gives incentive to buy and sell to acquire items with desirable modifiers.

Now the end of the video talks about several ways to engage players in the game rather than just compel them: mystery, mastery, mental challenge, narrative, novelty, flow. I think it’s really important for PS to have these as well. I just don’t have any clear, specific suggestions for any of them.

Rigwyn

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Illysia

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Re: Extra Credits - How Games Condition People to Play More
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2016, 04:17:39 am »
That would be the case, Rigwyn, if these weren't long demonstrated methods that work. They get results if you use them.

Rigwyn

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Re: Extra Credits - How Games Condition People to Play More
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2016, 05:00:32 am »
While you're at it, try selling ice cubes to an Eskimo.







Illysia

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Re: Extra Credits - How Games Condition People to Play More
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2016, 05:21:55 am »
...and when I do, what are you giving me for having pulled it off? :P

Rigwyn

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Thoss

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Re: Extra Credits - How Games Condition People to Play More
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2016, 09:15:56 pm »
Extra Credits - How Games Condition People to Play More
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWtvrPTbQ_c&list=PLB9B0CA00461BB187&index=18
Now, what incentives could PS use? In the video it speaks of operant conditioning and rewards schedules.

Hold up a sec.. i watched this video and operant conditioning with scheduled quasi random rewards... is what this video is against... or at least advocating advancing from...  That's tapping into the Skinner methods that they are trying to rise above. and "avoid reward systems put in place simply to delay your realization at how terrible they (the games) are..."

Then they list out some examples of their "better" ways to engage..

1. Mystery... stone labyrinths invasions seems a good place to start...

2. Mastery... master a skill and actually be able to utilize it... actual pvp arena champion who has to defend is title ... monthy?

3. Mental Challenges... Quest probably hit this.  (not a big puzzle fan myself)

4. Narrative...  seems this is fairly deep... but perhaps we need ongoing narrative? probably could be combined with some points above.

5. Novelty... PS seems novel in it's RP focus and allowing for custom stories, poems, and other creations.

6. Flow... hmmm not sure I get a flowing vibe as described in PS...

At the end they differentiate between Engagement and Compulsion or being Compelling... I like Engagement... Engagement with the guards or other NPCs possessed by GMs in a meaningful way is satisfying to me as a player.

[edit - re-read Illysia's first sentence about thinking that mechanics compulsion not being verboten... just in moderation... ok I see your point better... I guess I think the RPG leveling elements  and crafts/skills satisfy this point sufficiently as is...]
« Last Edit: October 19, 2016, 09:20:36 pm by Thoss »
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Illysia

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Re: Extra Credits - How Games Condition People to Play More
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2016, 10:15:41 pm »
Yes, the compulsion elements are fine for what they do. They are tools like any other. The problem comes from a game using them as a crutch. What PS needs is to conform a little bit more to known game design principles, but use the fact that it is non commercial to it's advantage. Since it has no buyers or shareholders to answer to, it is free to explore and innovate.

However, let's not lose sight of the fact that there is a reason there are known principles of game design... they work. ;) PS may be an indie game and volunteer based, but it can still benefit from the techniques pioneered by commercial games.

LigH

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Re: Extra Credits - How Games Condition People to Play More
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2016, 08:22:15 am »
From this point of view, it was a necessary decision to make the tutorial.

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Eonwind

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Re: Extra Credits - How Games Condition People to Play More
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2016, 11:34:39 am »
Technically speaking adding "random" bonus modifiers to ordinary crafting could be doable, and not terribly hard to implement. However PS has already a way to do this and let people add the modifier *they* want, not just a random one. In fact it's possible to enchant every currently craftable equipment in game.
I'm a bit unsure if adding random modifiers could really improve the game playability or fun. I will consider the idea, however.

Speaking about rewards, some of you may not know we have recently implemented "daily" quests.
These quests can be taken every X hour of play, adapt to the player's level (ask different tasks based on what the player can do) and reward the player with experience, money AND a skill point. Yes a skill point.
This means, for example, that rising your cooking skill no longer requires the player to grind for hours to practice the skill (players can still do it if they wish, of course) but there is the option to go in game, and ICly quest to raise your competence every once in a while (e.g. Sorry buddy, I'm busy helping Harnquist produce 20 maces for the BD fortress).

We still don't cover every single implemented skill for now, this include several crafting skills and the combat skills. However we have a plan to implement them all, one by one.

So why isn't everything done yet? Simply put: time and manpower.
However the good news is everyone with a bit of creativity, a bit of time and the will to help can help us. Coding, syntax etc. is not even required. We already have a technical format ready to fill in.

Illysia

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Re: Extra Credits - How Games Condition People to Play More
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2016, 07:03:12 pm »
The modifier isn’t truly the point. The game NEEDS to reward players for doing tedious and repetitive tasks. I’ll suggest some alternative ways to do once I explain why it’s important to provide this random element. Remember that the video discussed how giving a reward at the completion of a task each time is not very effective, yet adding an unpredictable reward is highly effective.

Think back to the example of pushing a button in a factory as opposed to sitting in front of a slot machine (that example starts at about 1:32 in the video). The reason that people would prefer to gamble rather than perform an “equally strenuous task with a regular payout and higher net profit” is because it is considered more fun.

A job merely gives you what you worked for. You push button; you get crafted item. Playing a game should not be a job or a chore. However, a random reward such as an unexpected modifier, gives the player a little punch to the pleasure center of their brain. It gives them an unexpected “win.” It goes beyond push button get modifier. It becomes push button, what might I get now? See how it sets up anticipation for the result rather than let the player simply sit there long enough to get a result?

If you need further proof that beyond all reason this method works, look at the trend in MMOs of providing gamble boxes of gear to players, especially those that cost real money. Now don’t get me wrong, I wish those things would be banished to the deepest, darkest recess of the gaming abyss never to return, but we all know they work. Even though the odds usually not in the player’s favor, players continue to buy and gamble on these things. Why? Because whether or not the player gets what they want, the box sets up the “will it, won’t it?” anticipation. Further, given enough tries it will at some point randomly reward the player with what they want or something even better.

This method is tried and true. When used to help players along rather than exploit players, it can help take some of the sting out of repetitive tasks.

Now to alternatives, if it’s the modifier itself that bothers you. The same effect can be achieved in other ways to varying degrees of effectiveness. Along with the fact that rare items have various little buffs, in Wurm Online, rare items also have a shimming visual effect. Visual effects, like those attached to spells, could also provide a “reward” and be sought after by players. You’d be surprised how in demand shiny only can be. However, I can see how visual effects applied to items, like smoke or shiny particles being added to a well-crafted bowl of food, can cause needless lag.

Another option would be a visual effect on the screen or sound effects. Also in Wurm, when a player gets a rare roll which gives the chance to get rare items, there is a green swirl on the screen and drum roll. Some people live for that drum roll. However, while these are great cues, if they don’t actually do anything they will quickly be ignored. So far, modifers are a better deal. However, there is one last option I can think of, though I don’t know if it will work with PS crafting.

One final option is an in-the-zone crafting buff. After a random amount of crafting, the player receives a buff which speeds up the time it takes to crafts items for some duration of time. Now I think that will help, but I’m not sure if you can buff the player to get the tools to work faster just for them. I admittedly don’t know how the programing works for that.

However, one way or another, the game NEEDS to reward the player for doing those repetitive tasks. Consider that combat already has its version of what I suggest in loot drops. It works.

Speaking about rewards, some of you may not know we have recently implemented "daily" quests.
These quests can be taken every X hour of play, adapt to the player's level (ask different tasks based on what the player can do) and reward the player with experience, money AND a skill point. Yes a skill point.
This means, for example, that rising your cooking skill no longer requires the player to grind for hours to practice the skill (players can still do it if they wish, of course) but there is the option to go in game, and ICly quest to raise your competence every once in a while (e.g. Sorry buddy, I'm busy helping Harnquist produce 20 maces for the BD fortress).

Now I do know about the daily quests as I read Ven’s post on it, I think. I haven’t done one, since it’s been forever since I did Harn’s apple quest, but what I’m hoping you’ve implemented something like the jobs system in Mabinogi. :thumbup: That would be very good for the game as it would allow the gameplay mechanics and RP to harmonize rather than conflict as it does in most games.

So why isn't everything done yet? Simply put: time and manpower.
However the good news is everyone with a bit of creativity, a bit of time and the will to help can help us. Coding, syntax etc. is not even required. We already have a technical format ready to fill in.

Alright... since you didn't say it, I'm going to keep poking. *poke* What "technical format"? Where? :P

That reminds me, I need to dig up the documents I had made on cooking transformations. I was working on some for Tua. My health took its first big tumble, and I wasn't able to complete my second round. If I can find those papers, I may be able to pick up where I left off with some help as to what the cooking books say now.

Venalan

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Re: Extra Credits - How Games Condition People to Play More
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2016, 08:47:37 pm »
We don't have an official format to fill in to make one of these quests. That said, the process to make one for us is very simple.

Let me give an example from a made up skill.

Making balloon animals has 4 books.

Each book would become its own skill rank level in the quest. So there would be at least 4 rank levels which would be made accessible by completing the quests where the crafting book is made available. Rank 1 would need book 1, rank two book 1+2... then 1+2+3... then books 1+2+3+4.

Next we have to rank the items in each book based on skill level. If book 1 is obtainable at level 5 then every item the player is asked to make must be craftable at that level, if book 2 is at level 25 then all items in rank 2 must not need a level above 25.... ect.

So now you have to make a list of options the player is going to be asked to make. The best idea here is to have a few options 3/4 in the first rank and increase the number for each rank. This is due to the fact a player will spend much more time between ranks 80-100-120-150 than they will between 1-20 so we tend to have more variation at the higher levels where it will make most impact on repeatability.

Once you have decided on the number of options, and the items asked for in each option you then write some simple text which corresponds to the text the player sees in the menu and the text the NPC would say. A very simple and rough outline would be the following.

**RANK 1

*Option 1
Menu: Hi I'd like to help with you balloon animals.
NPC: Great, I've just been asked to make five green snakes and don't have time.

Menu: Here are your five green snakes.
NPC: Brill, you're a star. Here are some coins in thanks.
*Give exp*
*give tria*
*Give 1 level in balloon animal making*

*Option 2
Menu: Hi I'd like to help with you balloon animals.
NPC: Great, I've just been asked to make three yellow worms and don't have time.

Menu: Here are your three yellow worms.
NPC: Brill, you're a star. Here are some coins in thanks.
*Give exp*
*give tria*
*Give 1 level in balloon animal making*

**RANK 2
.
.
**RANK 3
.
.
**RANK 4
Menu: Hi I'd like to help with you balloon animals.
NPC: Great, I've just been asked to nine green red and blue consumers and don't have time.

Menu: Here are your nine green red and blue consumers.
NPC: Brill, you're a star. Here are some coins in thanks.
*Give exp*
*give tria*
*Give 1 level in balloon animal making*

You can make more than 5 ranks, if possible you add in even harder items from the top book or you just make the number of items asked for even higher so there is a relative increase in effort for the skill rank the player is awarded with.

Then you send to settings (Mordan or I), we check over the items at each level to ensure they are craftable. Then make it set up for the server and load and test it.

Done!
..

Illysia

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Re: Extra Credits - How Games Condition People to Play More
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2016, 09:26:14 pm »
Alright, now how about the procedure for people helping out with making the crafting books? I mean helping to determine the steps for the unimplemented skills.

Eonwind

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Re: Extra Credits - How Games Condition People to Play More
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2016, 05:22:21 pm »
Alright, now how about the procedure for people helping out with making the crafting books? I mean helping to determine the steps for the unimplemented skills.

This is better worked out hanging on IRC #planeshift-prospects, but it's something not terribly hard.
The pipeline requires to compile a datasheet like this: http://www.planeshift.it/download/example_crafting_sheet.xls (but there is an updated one), including:

  • the items and item characteristic for all the ones needed for the craft (including intemidiate and final items and tools)
  • transformations
  • combinations

Talking about the repeatable quest format, what I meant is we have a few of them that can indeed provide a good base to work on. In my experience that's much easier and less intimidating than starting from scratch. However I dunno if settings is happy to share one of them outside the team :P ... but I'm pretty sure if someone is interested working on them we can share what is needed for the task.

Illysia

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Re: Extra Credits - How Games Condition People to Play More
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2016, 05:30:17 pm »
That link is broken, but thanks.