Author Topic: US Election 2016  (Read 63035 times)

LigH

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Re: US Election 2016
« Reply #30 on: November 05, 2016, 12:34:58 pm »
As I already mentioned: about 50% non-voters made the last near-absolute majority of the Christian Union parties possible (which created the political stall in federal politics with a "great coalition", leaving a mere 5th of opposition with no real legislative power). Now that many previous non-voters consider voting for the populists, the real percentage of consent in the population gets more obvious.

I may not enjoy right-wing populism gaining power, but I do enjoy the political map getting "more colourful". We just need more left-wing alternatives to fix the balance. That's a real lack in times when previously conservative parties appear to move further to the left than social democrats... The question which party to vote for to push the overall politics into a desired direction is no more trivial.

But OK, back to the US.

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gonger

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Re: US Election 2016
« Reply #31 on: November 05, 2016, 05:18:52 pm »
If you do not vote at all, your message is: "I do not care."
If you want your message to be "I do care, but I do not like any of the candidates," you take the effort to vote, but make your vote void. You do not check a box for any candidate, you write a message on the ballot sheet, whatever.
In the current US situation, it is really the choice between two evils, with IMHO Clinton being the lesser one in comparison with Trump.
I would have much prefered Bernie Sanders - competent, respectful, calm. Maybe too calm for the media dominated campaigns, not glamourous enough.

LigH

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Re: US Election 2016
« Reply #32 on: November 05, 2016, 06:01:04 pm »
As a "socialist", Sanders is not conservative enough, is a threat for the free economy market. He had to be silenced. He was an obstacle in the American Way.

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Dilihin

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Re: US Election 2016
« Reply #33 on: November 05, 2016, 09:02:39 pm »
In the current US situation, it is really the choice between two evils, with IMHO Clinton being the lesser one in comparison with Trump.


lesser one for your country or in general?

Thoss

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Re: US Election 2016
« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2016, 03:30:24 pm »
Quote from: Rigwyn
An interesting question is why didn't the third party candidates get a strong following this year given all the hatred towards the popular candidates.

That is a pretty good questions... and I think the passive appearance that you talk about is probably the key. Stein is Green and passive... Johnson is timid and weak appearing... and I think the populace feels we need a strong personality to face the others. Just try to imagine and argument between Putin and Johnson... Johnson would be owned and probably wouldn't even realise when he is being manipulated.

(that paragraph is the best weapon to get me to vote for trump... I am still fighting that off though)

Quote from: Mishka
Not voting means you don't endorse any of the candidates. And that's fine.

I agree with you here... I think when I discussed not voting being silly, was those that don't ever vote out of apathy or thinking their tiny vote doesn't matter. That I think is silly.

Quote from: Ligh
As a "socialist", Sanders is not conservative enough, is a threat for the free economy market. He had to be silenced. He was an obstacle in the American Way.

This is interesting to me coming from your perspective (admittedly, I don't know you that well). I was a Bernie fan in the beginning, but always felt that I might be too ignorant to know whether or not that is a good idea.

Socialist ideas are tantalizing to me as they just sound like good ideas, buts it's the question of how they shake out in reality that I never know, and I can't ever get a hold of the economics of the situation.

The future I have chosen to see and swallow... I just don't think socialism will work as the ideas of us being a cohesive group is going to go backwords a bit I feel. Which throws me over towards the libertarians...



« Last Edit: November 06, 2016, 03:34:26 pm by Thoss »
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LigH

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Re: US Election 2016
« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2016, 05:17:33 pm »
Thoss, sorry for forgetting the {SarcMark} ;) — That was not my opinion, only explaining the reason why he had no chance (e.g. why there was an inner-democratic conspiracy). I would have wished him fairness.

The longer we have a conservative government, the more I see our society shifting from a former "social economy market" as proposed by Ludwig Erhard ("wealth comes with responsibility") towards an asocial "free economy market" where the poor are blamed for not using chances the rich already used off. And the worst betrayal was done by so called "social democrats" (yes, I mean Gazprom-Schröder). They created a system where pensioners will be poor if they did not save up, but precarious workers today are already too poor to have anything left to save. Pensions could have been saved instead by not excluding clerks and politicians from shares into retirement funds. But as you know, "crows don't pick each others' eyes" (the German version of "there is honour among thieves").

I'm missing an alternative to the "lizards". But even our one and only "Left Party" is most active in losing credibility. Pirates did the same, fighting over each other instead of against the machine.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2016, 05:41:49 pm by LigH »

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Calmus

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Re: US Election 2016
« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2016, 06:04:50 pm »
If I could vote between the two, I would rather vote Trump. Even before being president Hillary seems to be a total war hawk. With her as president the foreign policy of the US will be surely more aggressive than it is currently under Obama.

sources which backup my claim that she seems to be a hawk:
http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/07/27/hillary-the-hawk-a-history-clinton-2016-military-intervention-libya-iraq-syria/

(a German documentary - not in English: http://www.ardmediathek.de/tv/Monitor/Falkin-im-Wei%C3%9Fen-Haus-Die-aggressive-Au/Das-Erste/Video?bcastId=438224&documentId=38448308 )
« Last Edit: November 06, 2016, 06:12:18 pm by Calmus »

LigH

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Re: US Election 2016
« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2016, 06:24:28 pm »
I remember this point of view... and on the other hand, if Trump makes it, we could bet on him being kept away from final decisions as good as the rest of the political establishment can. He himself already offered leaving most activity to the vice president. He is just another Zaphod Beeblebrox, after all: Perfect to distract from the real power.

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Mairon

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Re: US Election 2016
« Reply #38 on: November 06, 2016, 09:44:31 pm »
Let`s put it this way - do you really want an Octarch openly financing rogues and Onyx Daggers, whose people gather at strange Blackflame rituals? If you`re not a member of their cult and/or a "used mindless lump of flesh" (c), I guess not.

In Trump`s case it`s probably the same, only not THAT blatant, which is why he has a much better chance of winning.
He`s a different puppet, but the puppeteers are the same.

That kind of "choice" is an illusion and has always been.
But sure, there will be change - prepare to be sacrificed to their only Lord and Master. And I mean, literally.

Mairon takes his Guy Fawkes mask off and remembers that it`s already the 6th.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2016, 09:58:07 pm by Mairon »
DONT TREAD ON ME

gonger

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Re: US Election 2016
« Reply #39 on: November 06, 2016, 10:26:29 pm »
In the current US situation, it is really the choice between two evils, with IMHO Clinton being the lesser one in comparison with Trump.

lesser one for your country or in general?

Considering the international importance of the USA, it is almost the same. I am German, and live and work in Luxembourg.
Someone with such a lack of self-control and respect, who openly asks his followers to commit crimes ("Don't give them back their coats", "Hit everybody who wants to throw tomatoes"), who values women only for their looks, for whom compromise means "I want it all", etc, pp, at nauseam - someone like this is simply unfit for such an important position.

Rigwyn

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Re: US Election 2016
« Reply #40 on: November 06, 2016, 11:35:18 pm »
Regarding Mishka's  point on the significance of voting, I would say do a simulation with a small voting pool of 5 voters and see how you feel about those numbers. Yes, one's reason for not voting may vary, but the mathematical effects are independent of one's reason for doing so. When you don't vote, you effectively submit your power to choose to the rest of the voters.( This gets tricky with the electoral college system ). If you vote for an underdog, you at least get to document your dissatisfaction, but in a veiled way.

As pointed out earlier, getting non-voters to vote has had a huge impact in the past. Some say It's what got Obama elected.

I don't want to take sides on Hillary vs Trump, but I do want to point out that one should strive to think deeply about their basis for their convictions. Do i chose X because I like the way a certain piece of propaganda sounds and feels, or do my convictions run deeper. Am I blindly agreeing with what "everyone" is saying because "everyone" must be right, or have I actually evaluated the truthfulness of such statements and realistically weighed them.

There's a lot of nonsense going around in the news and a lot of serious stuff too. The nonsense is easy to repeat and remember. The more serious stuff takes time to read, comprehend and digest. It takes time and effort to come to a reasonable conclusion once you get past the learning curve.

Perhaps now would be the time to invest in booze and aspirin.

MishkaL1138

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Re: US Election 2016
« Reply #41 on: November 07, 2016, 10:52:10 am »
Regarding Mishka's  point on the significance of voting, I would say do a simulation with a small voting pool of 5 voters and see how you feel about those numbers. Yes, one's reason for not voting may vary, but the mathematical effects are independent of one's reason for doing so.
Your sample is too small to illustrate your point. It's much, much more complex than that, at least in the majority of countries. Still, it doesn't matter: the ultimate executive power doesn't come from the President, except for matters depending on foreign policies. What matters is who you have voted as your representative, and how many like him are in the House. Is there a 47% republican, a 39% democrat, and a 14% of the other parties? That's what matters in the long run, they're the ones who will pass the bills, where the real politics are done. The dangerous outcomes of these elections are because of how the US will show themselves to the world.

[...] When you don't vote, you effectively submit your power to choose to the rest of the voters.
Nope, I didn't say that, never said that. When you vote blank, you submit your power. When you don't vote, you don't agree with any candidate. When your vote is null, it's a more active way of disagreeing. But not voting doesn't mean you "submit" to anyone. That's demagogic used to get people to sway for either side. Don't fall in that fallacy.

If you vote for an underdog, you at least get to document your dissatisfaction, but in a veiled way.
Not if it's just a noone that you don't know at all. Information is power. Always be true for yourself. Voting out of spite isn't right, and can/will get you in more trouble than you wanted to avoid. I have friends who are voting for Trump because they don't want Hillary and vice versa. Think about how screwed they'll be when they see what they actually supported.

Perhaps now would be the time to invest in booze and aspirin.
Pass the bottle. Have you actually taken a look at Europe? In the US even with the lower wages you still get lower taxes and an all around cheaper way of living, and the median US citizen will have at least 20 jobs before getting the one they'll stick with for the rest of their lives. In most European countries that's unthinkable. You either spend half your life between jobs, or go into government, or get lucky enough to land a job right after finishing your education, and then you grow roots there.

Even if your two candidates are war mongering nutjobs using and abusing demagogy, slander and low blows to get at each other so they can gain more votes, you aren't faced with the threat of left-winged extremists/populists. Take a look at Venezuela, and extrapolate it to countries like Greece, Spain, Italy... It's scary.

But there's nothing we can do now other than brace ourselves and hope for the best now. May God takes mercy on our souls.

"It's all fun and games until someone stabs someone else in the eye."

Rigwyn

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Re: US Election 2016
« Reply #42 on: November 07, 2016, 11:51:56 am »
Nope, I didn't say that, never said that. When you vote blank, you submit your power. When you don't vote, you don't agree with any candidate. When your vote is null, it's a more active way of disagreeing. But not voting doesn't mean you "submit" to anyone. That's demagogic used to get people to sway for either side. Don't fall in that fallacy.
If there are 5 people voting, then each person has 1/5 say in who is elected. If one person decides not to vote, then each person has 1/4 say in who is elected. If four people sit out, then one person gets all the say in who's elected. This is what I mean by submitting your power. Yes, in a realistic situation, the numbers are scale much higher and individual votes contribute to the state's vote. I don't see how that argument is demagogic in nature, perhaps I don't understand your point.

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Not if it's just a noone that you don't know at all. Information is power. Always be true for yourself. Voting out of spite isn't right, and can/will get you in more trouble than you wanted to avoid. I have friends who are voting for Trump because they don't want Hillary and vice versa. Think about how screwed they'll be when they see what they actually supported.

So then your friends should vote for Hillary because that way they're not voting against her because voting "against" is bad? I think what you said might have came out a little funny there. This year in the US, there are only two candidates who currently have a chance at winning. Whether you vote for or against is irrelevant. ( You could say Stein and Johnson have a chance if you want to split hairs, but it's tiny based on polls which show that people are mostly split between crooked hillary and Trump )

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Pass the bottle. Have you actually taken a look at Europe? In the US even with the lower wages you still get lower taxes and an all around cheaper way of living, and the median US citizen will have at least 20 jobs before getting the one they'll stick with for the rest of their lives. In most European countries that's unthinkable. You either spend half your life between jobs, or go into government, or get lucky enough to land a job right after finishing your education, and then you grow roots there.

If by Europe, you mean a country in the Eurozone, I'de said no for now. It looks like the EU is just as corrupt as the US right now. If you mean GB, I'd wait until the Brexit debacle is squared away. I think there's still some uncertainty there. On a similar note, there's been talk of people wanting to flee to Canada in the event that the election doesn't go their way. It's just something we started saying ever since Obama ran for president. It's not something we would really do. ( I mean the Canadians seem like nice folks and all, but it's a bit drastic )
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Even if your two candidates are war mongering nutjobs using and abusing demagogy, slander and low blows to get at each other so they can gain more votes, you aren't faced with the threat of left-winged extremists/populists. Take a look at Venezuela, and extrapolate it to countries like Greece, Spain, Italy... It's scary.


You know, a while back when Dilma was in the news quite a bit, I sat back smugly and said to myself, "I'm glad I don't live in a country like that." Now I see the US is not much different... yet.

And sadly, there is no god to pull us out of this mess. This is nature's way of recycling that which fails to thrive. Perhaps there's some comfort in knowing that we're not alone.  lol

Have you read the Wikileaks on the Clintons? If not, make a twitter account and check you @wikileaks or #podestaemails. The corruption and fraud in the Clinton family is absolutely astounding. More so is the fact that they have folks high up the ladder like the Attorney General ( who the FBI reports to ) and the president himself supporting the Clintons.

This is what really rattles most folks in the US. The justice system is supposed to be flat. All citizens are supposed to be treated equally. Unfortunately as in the novel "Animal Farm" by George Orwell, the rules seem to be changing so that "Some folks are more equal than others."

Thoss

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Re: US Election 2016
« Reply #43 on: November 07, 2016, 03:32:37 pm »
Thoss Yonbur/Aarnir Irety/Oslorod Krolar/Myno Eljin

cdmoreland

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Re: US Election 2016
« Reply #44 on: November 07, 2016, 06:43:01 pm »
pertinent Nov 2 post:

http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2016/11/the-last-gasp-of-american-dream.html

For any that can't get through the whole thing: "It’s by no means certain that a Trump presidency will stop that from happening, and jolt the United States far enough out of its current death spiral to make it possible to salvage something from the American experiment. Even among Trump’s most diehard supporters, it’s common to find people who cheerfully admit that Trump might not change things enough to matter; it’s just that when times are desperate enough—and out here in the flyover states, they are—a leap in the dark is preferable to the guaranteed continuation of the unendurable.

Thus the grassroots movement that propelled Trump to the Republican nomination in the teeth of the GOP establishment, and has brought him to within a couple of aces of the White House in the teeth of the entire US political class, might best be understood as the last gasp of the American dream. Whether he wins or loses next week, this country is moving into the darkness of an uncharted night—and it’s not out of place to wonder, much as Hamlet did, what dreams may come in that darkness."