Author Topic: 3D Art and Joint-Copyright PlaneShift License  (Read 5444 times)

sekhmet

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3D Art and Joint-Copyright PlaneShift License
« on: July 09, 2003, 08:50:07 pm »
Hello,

I\'m new around Planeshift and I would like to add to the magnificent
work of the planeshift team. You have done a very good job so far and
I was actually pretty amazed by Planeshift. This project has an incredible potentiel. I\'ve been playing muds for years and did some zone development their and was maybe thinking of doing the same for Planeshift. But I see one big hold back for me, and that is stated in your \"Joint-Copyright PlaneShift License\":

3) The author cannot use the same material in any other MMORPG Projects. A MMORPG project is defined as a project working to create a computer game involving one or more servers where multiple players connect and interact with each other and with the \"world\" provided by the server(s).

Personally I believe that Planeshift wil be the mother of a new generation of muds, and I think Planeshift needs to incorperate a part of it\'s artwork with the game so that other people can set up their own mud or watever with the planeshift base, I\'m not telling you to give away all the artwork you got but some standard stuff, a couple of houses, some basic items etc. Maybe their could be a seperate project for this in which future spinoffs from Planeshift, people and other projects can work together to make a common public 3D models library for the purpose of rpg\'s.

Wat it comes down to is that I\'d love to create some artwork for you but I\'d prefer it\'d be for everyone as in the GPL spirit.

Sekhmet

Niber

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« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2003, 09:28:10 pm »
\"and other projects can work together to make a common public 3D models library for the purpose of rpg\'s.\"
Say what??!! That\'s a terrible ide?  ;)
Models\\textures should be individual for all games otherwise games will lose there artistic values,, all games shouldn\'t\\doesn\'t have the same style you know..

And even I a lot of projects would gather up and make a huge model libary they would get old very soon when the poly count raises again.

Muds? What does that have to do with Planeshift?? Planeshift got rid of the mud in year 2001!
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sekhmet

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« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2003, 11:01:51 pm »
Seems to mee that everybody has about the same idea on how a dwarf or an elf might look. And once you got a base model it\'s a lot easier to change adapt it to your personal flavor and I\'m pretty sure most people will want to change the models and textures but then at least they have a base to start from. I think a cup and a wooden bench look pretty much the same everywhere don\'t they?
And I\'m not pretty sure on how to upgrade older models but I suppose it is a lot easier than starting from scratch?
I\'ve noticed in a forum here on the boards \"Mogura\'s guide to client custamation\" that a lot of users have already been making changes to their own textures and stuff, why not make use of resources like that.
And as of wat I gathered Planeshift will be pretty much a mud with a nice gui, but I\'m not saying it is only that, it\'s much much more.

boonet

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« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2003, 11:13:48 pm »
My 2 cents...
actually creating something original is a lot harder when starting from something someone else did. So the chances that a product deriving from PS will look like an imitations are fairly high, in the case we\'d provide some material that everybody can modify for their purposes. My opinion is that the ones who can come up with really interesting ideas usually have the means and the skill to develop them indipendently, but I could be biased on this.

Moogie

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« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2003, 11:15:06 pm »
Hiya. :)

The difference here is that you basically want permission to take art or models that the Planeshift team were hard at work for months creating, alter it a little, and produce your own project using these models which, in reality, display nothing of your actual skill.

My guide to cusomisation explains how to add one\'s own artwork to the game to personalise the experience. I think it\'s unfair to take work from skilled 3D artists and claim it as your own after a few minor alterations to the model and/or skin. Seems the Planeshift Team does too... which is why the Copyright License exists.

[Edit: Mod got here first. Dam you for making me post in your more-important shadow! :P]
« Last Edit: July 09, 2003, 11:17:52 pm by Moogie »

sekhmet

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« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2003, 12:03:52 am »
At least the art designer contributor should have the right to use his own art work he allowed Planeshift to be used to be used for his own or other projects, this is not the case if I read the Planeshift license correct. I\'d like to be able to use at least wat I myself designed to be used on my own or other projects on my own discretion. Can this be done? Someone from Planeshift core plz respond on this.

Moogie

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« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2003, 12:26:12 am »
...Are you saying you want to use your own artwork in the Planeshift game, use your own artwork in your own game, or use Planeshift artwork/modified Planeshift artwork in your own game?

The first two are fine. The last is simply plagerism.

Niber

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« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2003, 12:50:01 am »
Quote
Originally posted by sekhmet
At least the art designer contributor should have the right to use his own art work he allowed Planeshift to be used to be used for his own or other projects, this is not the case if I read the Planeshift license correct. I\'d like to be able to use at least wat I myself designed to be used on my own or other projects on my own discretion. Can this be done? Someone from Planeshift core plz respond on this.

I don\'t think models\\textures should be used in more than one game..
The game and maybe the portfulieo (misspelled I know)..
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Sarth

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« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2003, 06:41:07 am »
sekhmet wrote:

Quote
I\'d like to be able to use at least wat I myself designed to be used on my own or other projects on my own discretion


If you want to use your own art in your own project then don\'t submit it to become part of the Planeshift project.

Simple really ;)

Kluger

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« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2003, 07:23:16 am »
Let\'s look at it starting from a different perspective.  We know that intellectual property slows progress, as even the GNU GPL that Planeshift has says.  If something is fundamentally wrong, then logically it must also be practically wrong.  When copyrights were the only way software worked, nobody believed that public domain-style software would ever work, because they didn\'t see the incentive.  Linux proved that it\'s truly better to be fundamentally right, and even Red Hat made a lot of money on it.  Even the giant Microsoft is tumbling.

Sekhmet is surely right that many portions are practically identical from one game to another.  Try the texture of a brick, or the shape of a sword, for example.  I could claim that PS doesn\'t have its own look and feel, because the other CS based games feel the same.

Movies do the same thing.  They just shuffle actors around and change their clothes.  \"I don\'t wanna see T3, \'cause they just used the actor from Hercules in New York and changed his clothes.\"

Game developers that want to be original simply don\'t copy stuff unless they can satisfactorily change it to something new.  And those who don\'t change the graphics simply don\'t want to.  That\'s flattery.  :]

On the other hand, Planeshift does make a good point about artists refusing to submit their work as GPL.  There is a solution, though.  PS can keep all the contracts and licenses the same, but piece by piece, they can accept public domain replacements, now that they have popularity on their side.  I would donate public domain art if I could draw better than a 5 year old child drawing with his left foot.

On a related note, yes, Planeshift can be a profitable GPL product by operating advertisement-driven \"value-added servers\".
Read my Say\'s Law paper on my homepage!
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sekhmet

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« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2003, 08:28:14 pm »
A lot of advanced muds started off with a standard CircleMUD, with standard zones, standard code and evolved into something completely different. These people were young and unexperienced programmers that changed little by little their world and system and along the way got lots better at programming. Their creatons still thrive on untill today, because they are original. The muds with little modifcation dyed out, becuz of lack and intrest by players. But all these great muds started of from a clone world, the base package. Remember Midgaard from circlemud? I can offcourse understand that Planeshift wants to make sure that their are no split offs from the project.(diffusion of resources) But once Planeshift has gone gold they should release it on the world and have some standard zones to go along with it for starters. This could even be a completely different set of zones from the Planeshift world. And why not make a public project of this base world then? I also liked to add that I\'d be good for Planeshift to have a lot of splitoffs (once it has gone gold) since it is under the GPL license and will be able to get a lot of help from admins running their own little game server and fixing stuff, but I can Imagen it to be pretty hard to set up a base server if you would have to create all the artwork from scratch, it\'d take you months if not years before you have anything to show. But all of this discussion is based on muds, let me give this a spin. In Neverwinter nights you can be a dungeon master and lead your friends into quests. Planeshift could also be this, but how are you gonna do this if you don\'t have any 3D models?

Reply to Mogura: I would like to give art work I myself created to Planeshift but also later on to be able to split off from Planeshift and set up my own mud of some sort based on the Planeshift(engine) and my own art work. But the Planeshift prohibits this. I\'d also agree to go under the Planeshift license if I was sure that Planeshift would allow me to use my own art work on my own mud once it has gone gold. Wat\'s so wierd about that?

Xalthar

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« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2003, 08:43:35 pm »
Since this isn\'t a MUD, and much, much more complicated than those, it would take a lot of the devs\' time away from PS if they were to create extra extra zones for people wanting to create their own game.. Since the devs main project is PS and  since PS is ever evolving, I would rather see them use their time at developing PS instead of \"wasting\" their time working on zones that \"I\" personally, as well as a lot of others, won\'t ever get to use, or want to use... but those are just my two cents...

Niber

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« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2003, 11:11:52 pm »
Tools for MUDs like preprogrammed codes and stuff are for newbie programers like you said and if one are a newbie programmers they shouldn\'t try something as hard as 3d MMORPG.
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Kluger

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« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2003, 02:47:06 am »
Quote
Originally posted by Xalthar
Since this isn\'t a MUD, and much, much more complicated than those, it would take a lot of the devs\' time away from PS if they were to create extra extra zones for people wanting to create their own game.. Since the devs main project is PS and  since PS is ever evolving, I would rather see them use their time at developing PS instead of \"wasting\" their time working on zones that \"I\" personally, as well as a lot of others, won\'t ever get to use, or want to use... but those are just my two cents...


if some developer wants to make something like PS, he\'ll obviously want to make something unique.  his interests probably wouldn\'t jive with the Planeshift mission.  therefore, the developer would not be a PS dev under any circumstances.

I don\'t think sekhmet (or I) would like PS to present the source code on a silver platter, just give us permission to dissect the platter we already have.  more specifically, sekhmet would like to donate to the PS project, but he (as I) would not like his own work to be restricted into PS.

Quote
Originally posted by Niber
Tools for MUDs like preprogrammed codes and stuff are for newbie programers like you said and if one are a newbie programmers they shouldn\'t try something as hard as 3d MMORPG.


look at it this way.  if a 3D MMORPG\'s graphics, sound, and code were all public domain, then a newbie programmer would have a much quicker start.  as sekhmet said, those who stick to it and make a truly original game are going to succeed.  those who are in over their head will not make an original game and it won\'t gather interest; they\'ll end up having older data, less support, and more bugs.
Read my Say\'s Law paper on my homepage!
I\'m here to test Linux PS and maybe find a friend or even a girlfriend, and jump from rooftop to rooftop.  ;-)
\"Despised and rejected, acquainted with grief, He bore the sins of the world.  He was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities.\"

boonet

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« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2003, 12:13:19 pm »
Quote
I don\'t think sekhmet (or I) would like PS to present the source code on a silver platter


Given the fact that this game is open source, the code is freely downloadable, useable and modifiable from everyone. And, believe me, this means that an incredible amount of work is already saved for those who want to use it to create their own game.

Quote
look at it this way. if a 3D MMORPG\'s graphics, sound, and code were all public domain, then a newbie programmer would have a much quicker start


If all these things were all available, the only thing this newbie programmer would have to do would be changing some names and things around and voila: he would get a PS clone. Results? All the originality we tried to put into our game is spoiled by these cheap clones: definitely not the best way to mantain ourselves and our community focused and happy with our game.

And, to clarify, all the artists that are working on PS accepted the PS license, understood and appreciate it, since it grants that their artwork will be protected and used only for the purpose it was created for.