Why Abemore will think PS sucks

[druke]

i myself have played Everquest since kunark expansion, and I still love the game, i\'m a 52 chanter and i guess maybe its b/c i\'m on a smaller server (the 7th hammer) Yes there are some thing that could be done but youv\'e got to think how much can the change to make the game \"harder\" if the do to much people will leave, the day the made \"KEI\" lvl 50+ only really pushed the limit. Eq is really a great game and i plan to try EQ2 b/c it shall be what EQ1 was ment to be The main reason PS will always be better than eq1 and 2 is b/c everquest is owned by sony and verant, they need money, pull to many strings and you get less money, ps devs i canwhipe everyones face against there buttocks and they wouldn\'t loose a dime see what i mean, they aren\'t preasured to hold back and let the players hold the whip.

[Drilixer]

Originally posted by druke
The main reason PS will always be better than eq1 and 2 is b/c everquest is owned by sony and verant, they need money, pull to many strings and you get less money, ps devs i canwhipe everyones face against there buttocks and they wouldn\'t loose a dime see what i mean, they aren\'t preasured to hold back and let the players hold the whip.

I know what you are trying to say, but I think your annalogy is a bit forced

[Wolfmane]

I know what you are trying to say, but I think your annalogy is a bit forced

*gets out her crystal-energy whip and \"applies\" a dozen lashes to Drillixers buttocks with due motherly love* \"When you have learned to spell a-n-n-a-l-o-g-y with your crystals mommy will even let you criticize fellow guild members\"  

I think what Druke is trying to say is that PS developers do what they do for the love of the project and not in order to make some company oodles of money. I don\'t know EQ but in principle I also dislike comparing PS to a closed source, p2p game without the kind of player involvement (i\'m guessing here) that PS players can achieve.

Did the power-out in the states hit your brain Druke?  

[Drilixer]

Originally posted by Wolfmane
*gets out her crystal-energy whip and \"applies\" a dozen lashes to Drillixers buttocks with due motherly love* \"When you have learned to spell a-n-n-a-l-o-g-y with your crystals mommy will even let you criticize fellow guild members\"  

*looks up list and realizes that comment was made by Druke - then slowly conneects Druke to AO...* oops

[Vengeance]

What game designers want to do is to design an engaging and lengthy game for their players.  You do this by putting constraints on what they can do.  If every piece in chess could all move like the queen, then chess would be totally boring.  The limitations can be frustrating at times, but they are truly what make games games.

Imagine basketball without traveling or fouling.

Imagine soccer with no offsides and no \"hands\" rule.

Soccer players don\'t sit around saying that it \"sucks\" because they WANT to pick up the ball.  It is the way the game is made and a big part of what makes it fun.

The same is true with MMORPGs.  The trick is to take out the constraints that are not fun and put in the constraints that are fun.  :-)    And that, mostly, is a matter of opinion.

- Venge

[derwoodly]

Venge quote:
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The same is true with MMORPGs. The trick is to take out the constraints that are not fun and put in the constraints that are fun. :-) And that, mostly, is a matter of opinion.
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It looks like this is the thred to read!

EQ was my first MMORPG, so in the begining I really like it.  I started to play in Jully of 2000.  

As a newbie I definately disliked the \"auto attack\" guild leader death thing.  Big bummer.  If PS takes that out it will be a big step forward for newbies.  

EQ gave you almost no instruction on what you should be doing.  The tutorial was suposed to be enough.  They just now added in game maps! I don\'t think you need to have an in game map of whole world, but your starting city should be there!  Newbies ALWAYS ask where they can find this or that!

EQ shops made no sense at all.  Taverns did not have glasses! but they had beer!  The basics should be in every town.  I should not have to travel 80 miles for a sharpening stone!  I don\'t mind traveling 80 miles for emeralds but stones! hah!  *calms self down*

Midlevels are fun, proably the most fun of the game for me.  But! downtime sucks.   In EQ it is at it worst in this part of the game.  Good high level groups seem to have less down time than the midlevel ones.  I am wondering what Blizzard will do with its game.  They are the masters at keeping you busier than hell while you play!

EQs high levels are the reason I gave it up.  A Vox raid with corpse recovery can easily take 12 hours of your life.  The main reason anyone would do such a thing is that your ingame items are so valuable to you that you will give up your real life to get them back.  I would like to see a game where your \"worth\" was placed more on your characters skills than the trinkets they get.  A 50th level char should be able to kill almost as well with a rusty sword as he can with a \"light saber\".
 
Darin

[Evanchild]

traveling is never fun but it needs to be done.  to get some resource it may be far away so you get as much as you can once and only get it when it is needed most.  it makes it so you don\'t have all powerful people who have everything.

[Wolfmane]

I agree with Derwoodly, this thread is starting to become the most interesting and important one I\'ve read so far in PS forums.

Venge your annalogy with chess is the best description of how and why the rules are designed like they are I\'ve come across. Great to have a reference point like that to consider.

The points raised by derwoodly on items needing to be there, glasses in pubs etc., are important. It really is that kind of detail that completes the atmosphere in a fantasy world like this. It is the kind of thing you don\'t really pay notice to when it is there but you sure miss it when it isn\'t! That may however be a problem for devs in terms of polycounts, complexity etc. A suggestion to consider here, maybe certain places like taverns could be fighting free zones. Thus in these rooms there will be less activity and movement that the game-engine has to deal with, on the other hand there will be more details like beer glasses etc. So these taverns are almost like 3D chatrooms. Maybe the idea is wacko since my understanding of the technical side is lacking to say the least but anyway ......

Thanks for bringing up the travelling bit again evanchild. Not to be a pain in the netherregion    Venge but could you comment more on modes of transport or ask Paxx to do so?

[kyp14]

I was just wandering one thing I really didn\'t like about Everquest was that it was a life sucker you had to play it so often just to get somwhere you couldn\'t just play it when felt like and get somwhere like in most FPS, I just hope that PS will be freindly to the casual gamer who doesn\'t have ADSL and won\'t be on 24/7 (don\'t take that Literally)

And  ditto i\'m playing PS for the $0.00 price tag

[Vengeance]

Ok I think derwoodly\'s criticisms of EQ are pretty valid.  There are several cases where the AI of the npcs could be better (as far as not killing you :-) ).

Also, our intent is to have a newbie map that you join on startup in which NPCs will tell you how to do things and let you practice a little bit.  I don\'t know if this will be in CB release or not.

I am sure our Rules/Settings guys will try to make sure that the shops have items that make sense in them.  However, spreading items around is a way for game designers to enforce that people explore and move around, so we may have some frustrating omissions also. :-)

Regarding the raiding, I\'m not sure I agree there.  Raids are time-consuming, not because of anything EQ did, but because it just takes a long time to get 60 people in one place and get them all buffed and get them to all shut up for a minute. :-)

Regarding traveling, the team is sensitive to it being \"boring\" to just run for hours (or even minutes) anywhere.  On the other hand, we think doing that helps the sense of immersion, makes the world seem bigger and more integrated, and is more realistic as well.  I think we\'ll have to just play this one by ear, but know that we don\'t like hours of mindless running either.

- Venge

[zabeal]

As for traveling, I hope there will some sort of system where yuou can just give your charactor a destination, and sit back as they find there own way there. The danger being the less you have traveled there, the more likely you will take a wrong turn....
Can I hope for something like this, or will we have to hover over the keyboard for an hour long trip?
Also, just having charactors advance regardless of how many people they kill will set PS far appart from EQ!

[Uzaree]

I really liked EQ also, I kinda how the PS enchanter is like the EQ chanter,  with Mezz and stuns mainly.  The only thing that I didn\'t like with EQ is zoning, and if you didn\'t play ALL the time you couldn\'t get money like the other players.  You had to farm things with I didn\'t like.  SO now you have players that don\'t have a jobs,  only go to school that can play for 8 or more hours a day and make tons of money.  It wasn\'t until after they did the stable selling that ppl could make money while online and off.  Also if you couldn\'t play as much you\'d get left behind in lvling.

That being said,  zoning may or may not be something that can be taken out of a game like this,  DAOC did somewhat get rid of it but there were still zones even in DAOC.  And like many other ppl I have used it to get away also =).  

I understand that players that play alot will get more out of the game, but in the case of EQ I payed my $12 bucks a month just like everyone else shouldn\'t I have be able to play with my friends that lvl faster?  Ashrons call had s good medium with this using a guild like structure and even while off line your guild members would give you part of your experience also so that you could continue playing with your friends.  I hate farming,  and the little time that I did have to play I didn\'t want to spend it selling and having to keep up with what the going price of things were.  But with regret,  that is part of life and I can\'t see any resolve to this problem and all MMORPGs will most likely have the same problems.  Unless you could have a house and an auction company that would run for you all the time and adjust prices to \"The going rate.\"  Like in EQ in the bazaar, they build a list of items in a database, and you can search for them.  Why not when your setting up to sell have these options; What you want to sell it for, Option for sell at % higher than the highest price, % to sell lower than the highest/lowest price, and have a min price to sell it to ppl wouldn\'t get smart and have a 10k for sell and they mark thiers down to 2 pennies so they get it for almost nothings.  Also have your  \"house\" be able to sell while you weren\'t online would be great, possible?  All depends on the coders =)

Well thats just my $0.02
Flame on =) hehe

[Abemore]

Originally posted by Vengeance
I am sure our Rules/Settings guys will try to make sure that the shops have items that make sense in them. However, spreading items around is a way for game designers to enforce that people explore and move around, so we may have some frustrating omissions also. :-)

This does not need to be enforced.  People will explore and move around on their own (and for quests).  Intentionally adding frustrating elements to a game just does not seem like the best coarse of action.  Derwoodly is right; 80 miles for a sharpening stone in EQ is preposterous.  Each town should have the basics.

[Vengeance]

Ok Abe, you convinced me.

I\'ll make sure that  none of the quests take more than 2 minutes either and everything is located really close and obvious for you.

You really don\'t get it... and that\'s a shame because it is preventing you from enjoying these games.

Just my opinion,
Venge

[Abemore]

Yeah thats what I wanted.  Every post I\'ve ever made was just a complaint that games are too hard. :rolleyes:

A little less sarcasm would do us both good.

Lets ask ourselves for a moment, \"why do people play video games, or watch movies, or read books?\"  It is to escape reality, is it not?  Escape the troubles of real life?  But for this to happen, we must suspend our disbelief.  Each time something illogical presents itself, it becomes that much harder to suspend disbelief.  It\'s okay if there are no sharpening stones in the mushroom city where the magical mushroom people live, because they have no need for weapons, but all other cities should have them.  Things need to be logical.

The future of MMO gaming is as seen in the film The Thirteenth Floor.  A persistent parallel reality.  With all the inherent frustrations of reality, why take the time to implement new frustrations in the alternate one?  Inevitably every game will frustrate to some extent, but to purposely add new frustrations would only lessen the fun.

If there\'s still something that I \"don\'t get\", then please explain it to me.

frustrating omissions bad, logical omissions good.