Author Topic: The Future of Planeshift  (Read 3271 times)

sekhmet

  • Hydlaa Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 137
    • View Profile
The Future of Planeshift
« on: August 18, 2003, 02:11:52 am »
I was wondering if it might be possible to get some place on the web where we could read wat the current view is of the future of PS by the core dev team. Wat skill system will their be? Will their be levels? Will their be clan wars? Will their be pk\'ing? This way we could be more constructive and expand on ideas wen discussing on the message boards. Everything is pretty vague for me atm and I\'ve read tons of posts on these boards already.
btw a pool for spells and skills would be neat too.

acraig

  • Administrator
  • Veteran
  • *
  • Posts: 1562
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2003, 02:41:46 am »
Quote
Originally posted by sekhmet
 Wat skill system will their be?


Complex system.  Mostly around the idea that you get good at what you do.  If you don\'t do stuff you won\'t get good at it.  Specifics?  Cannot say yet since it is still in development.  I\'m sure people will know all about it once it is in a state that it is worthy to talk about.

Quote

Will their be levels?


No. It is a skill based system.  This does however present a problem on how you judge the \'worthyness\' to let somebody in your group or guild.  Sometime we will have to figure out.

Quote

Will their be clan wars? Will their be pk\'ing?


I fully expect guild wars to be a large part of the game.

Quote

Everything is pretty vague for me atm.


The honest truth is that it is the same for us.  We have some ideas and we are trying to get those down on paper but a lot of the game is still floating around in our heads and in chats on irc.  That is often the reason why there is not a lot of \'offical\' information.  We simply are not 100% sure of how things will work and we don\'t want to give any impressions on things that my be totally different later on.
----------
Andrew
"For all I know, she's lying, everyone's lying; welcome to the Internet"

Saphire

  • Hydlaa Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 191
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2003, 02:46:57 am »
Quote
Originally posted by acraig
No. It is a skill based system.  This does however present a problem on how you judge the \'worthyness\' to let somebody in your group or guild.  Sometime we will have to figure out.


Maybe the person asking to join could show the guild their skills? (IE: The player goes up to the guild and shows them that he can do [this] and [that]. really easy and doesn\'t require much programming and stuff.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2003, 02:47:08 am by Saphire »
Precious and beutiful, it is happy. The only time when it is not is when it is in a shape of a tear.

acraig

  • Administrator
  • Veteran
  • *
  • Posts: 1562
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2003, 03:08:03 am »
Yes, that is one option being considered.  The leader of the guild may be able to see all the members stats or something along those lines.  Or a player may make \'particular\' stats public.  Just a couple of the options available here.
----------
Andrew
"For all I know, she's lying, everyone's lying; welcome to the Internet"

sekhmet

  • Hydlaa Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 137
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2003, 03:25:05 am »
Their should be some stuff certain at this stage thou, like the things I asked earlier. Even if you have no idea yet how it will be in the future, mentions this  so we know that at least.

Vengeance

  • Veteran
  • *
  • Posts: 1452
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2003, 03:42:06 am »
Read the forums.  Info on every question you asked is here.

- Venge

SnowWolf

  • Hydlaa Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 213
    • View Profile
Worth
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2003, 03:50:27 am »
Why not make it the responsibility of the guild to gudge the skill of a player by grouping with them and seeing for themselves - in otherwords, no public skills or anything, just good old fashioned communication - kind of like how you guys work the member system - they start off as wanna be members then when you find out over time that they are worthy you make them members

Sorry, this has probably been said before and is probably what Saphire meant, but since it wasn\'t said here yet, I figured why not? :)


From the Ranks of the Arcane Order

SnowWolf

sekhmet

  • Hydlaa Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 137
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2003, 04:54:13 am »
Vengeance: maybe true those questions are discussed but it is by far unsure wat dissisions the dev team make, thus how planeshift will look like in the future. In a thread there are often many different ideas, are you saying they are all gonna be implemented? I guess not, I just want to see wat dissisions have been made. Offcourse they can always change in the future but I\'d like to see the current view wat, how, where, everything you would like to put in the game. Sounds pretty obvious you would want a paper like that to not get off-track in development, isn\'t this one of the thing you learn first in project managment on collage? Would save a lot of time for new people to know wat way PS is heading instead of reading up on the boards for houres and houres and houres.
PS. I already knew the answers to the questions I asked it were mere samples. I\'m only after centralizing information, that\'s all (:

DannMann99

  • Traveller
  • *
  • Posts: 47
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2003, 06:23:22 am »
that leads to a very serious problem ACraig. A group would be able to have a very \'uber\' character in the group and they would all get some macho xp for doing nothing.

You cant base it on how many skill points they have either because say if all their skill points are on say cooking... Sure the person will have alot, but he wouldn\'t be to helpful in a combat situation.

~Dan
Member of the Arcane Order

SnowWolf

  • Hydlaa Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 213
    • View Profile
Grouping with Uber Players
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2003, 11:30:20 am »
DannMann brings up a good point BUT I have to say that other game\'s ideas for dealing with this possible problem aren\'t the best IMHO.

Level systems based on XP often allow devs to make simple rules about who can group with who - for example, a player 10 levels under another player will recieve no XP - this is ok, but there are tons of reasons why this is bad. For one it\'s just plain fun to group with people way stronger than you, especially if your a newbie. Another reason is the realism of the whole idea - in rl lets say you are a beginner taking a walk with your teacher of (insert some martial art here) a gang a punks jumps you in an alley and demands your wallets, your teacher isn\'t going to do that for whatever reason and kicks the crap out of the guys, you don\'t do much, or maybe you do nothing, but just witnessing this feat gives you experience - you can\'t reproduce the feeling of being jumped in the dojo - well, maybe you can, but that\'s a different thread.... Also, even the act of observing what your teacher does can help you out.

I could continue with the little narrative but I\'m sure you get the point by now (or at least I hope you do) Now, you might be saying, \"Ok, ok Snow, that\'s all good but how else do you do it?\" Glad you asked. One way you might do it would be to create an algorithm that considers a number of different factors via a number of different equations. Some factors might be...

-The difficulty level of a NPC/MOB
- How long was the encounter?
- What, if any, where the complications?
- Has the PC seen the NPC/MOB type before?
- Anything else you guys can think up

Now to explain these guys

*Difficulty*

This is the big one, that requires the most thought, and maybe even an actuary, lol :) [gotta love the humor]

WAIT! I know what you\'re thinking and no we are not back to square one with the level - yes or no thing. The outcome of a battle cannot be based on a single stat alone - esp experience. Thinking like that leads to problems like, \"If the PC is really strong but too slow to hit the target is he really all that strong?\" and the reverse \"If a PC is fast enough to land 6 hits in the blink of an eye, but each only takes 1/10 of a hit point, are they going to stand up to someone with tons of stamina? Like lets say Rocky for example...\"

The way around this is an equation that determines the likelyhood of a PC beating a MOB. How you do this is with a large string of comparisons of stats. Who\'s faster? Ok, by how much? [what is the probablity of PC hitting MOB based on agility and vice versa] If those hits do connect how badass are they compared to the opponent\'s stamina and health points? [How many hits to a kill? If the slow guys only needs to connect ONCE the odds are better of him winning, then if it were 100 times - making the odds close to zero]

After those two big ones you might want to consider other party members and their strengths. This creates a tiny problem b/c you are calculating each PC indepently and since they are each considered in each others\' equations, you get a loop going back and fourth. This isn\'t really a problem because in the loop situation you are comparing each PC\'s powerlevel in COMPARISON to the MOB - I see you forgot (or maybe you didn\'t ;)) So, before hand to fix this you create a hierarchy of who is the strongest group member by having the algorithm pit the PCs in a fight against each other using the same equation as used in the PC versus MOB senario.

You can apply a similar methodology to multiple mobs by breaking up each fight into separate mini encounters....

At the end, you get a single value X where PC Alpha has an X% chance at dropping MOB Beta

*Encounter length*

This one is simple - Which leads to more XP in two battles between the same two forces - a shorter one or a longer one? This whole concept reflects the skill of the people fighting (Two people of equal strength fight, but one is MUCH more skilled at playing his/her character and annihilates the opponent in a couple of seconds VERSUS two equally matched fighters that duke it out for an hour)

This one leads to exploits b/c PCs could deliberately draw out battles for more XP - but seriously if someone really wants to do that, make it worth their time! Just make sure you make a note that even though the battle lasted an hour, the PC still had a 98.7% chance of winning...

*Complications*

-Did your Uber buddy leave the group stranded?
-Did your Healer die?
-Did a Caster draw hits?

etc - these are more flat out values that you would add XP for, or possibly scale the total value at the end....

*Have you seen this MOB?*

If you have faught a million tree lizards before, you are gonna know how they move, their weakspots, etc

So, if you haven\'t seen a MOB before you get bonus XP.

This idea presents problems with logistics because you\'d have to keep a list of what you\'d seen before.

OR you could rate the rarity of a mob and then reward XP that way.

*Put it together*

I\'m just going to use an example here.

TEST BATTLE: PC Alpha Versus Beta the Baddie

Alpha has a 72% chance of beating Beta
Fight lasts 15 seconds
Alpha is a Caster and takes a hit
Beta dispite his name, is a EXTREMELY RARE MOB

Details:

Alpha is slighty faster than Beta and has decent attack power when compared to Beta\'s Stamina and HPs

However, Beta is only slightly slower and can probably kill Alpha with two or three hits...

Alpha defeats beta but takes a longer than expected amount of time for the 72% chance of winning - however it does not appear the amount of time was TOO much suggesting a drawn out battle [this wouldn\'t be a cut off, but a curve of the 4th power most likely]

XP

since Alpha had a decent chance of winning ...... 50 XP
A little extra time on the field [add ten percent]    *1.1
Caster takes hits [flat bonus] ............................     +3
Beta\'s Rarity [flat bonus] ...................................    +20
--------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                              78XP

Well there it is, just an example of a more complicated XP system. Any other ideas out there? Changes? Requests that I keep the post size down, lol?


From the Ranks of the Arcane Order

SnowWolf

seperot

  • Veteran
  • *
  • Posts: 1782
  • :G
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2003, 12:53:21 pm »
lol how long did it take you to type all that down snowwolf?

Kiva

  • Veteran
  • *
  • Posts: 1366
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2003, 03:17:43 pm »
If you people really have such a hard life deciding what\'s good about group fighting and what\'s not, then why don\'t we all just look at it from my point of view?

[Insert \"Boo / Bah\" Comments here]

I know, I know... :D

Well, first of all.

1) You get better at something by doing it. That\'s a proven fact.
2) You can get better at something by looking at it. That\'s a proven fact as well.

That draws us to one simple conclusion - I should get all the XP and ... No wait, wrong... :P

People can fight in groups, share the XP/whatever they gain because of group things, but the XP/whatever should be (dramatically?) lowered when grouped, simply because you\'re now more people to share the fixed amount of XP/whatever, and you\'re able to kill bigger mobs which results in you get (dramatically?) more XP/whatever than you would do alone and ... Well, that was simple, wasn\'t it? :D
\"Somewhere over the rainbow...\"

BlueScreenJunky

  • Hydlaa Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 106
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2003, 03:47:50 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Gronomist
People can fight in groups, share the XP/whatever they gain because of group things, but the XP/whatever should be (dramatically?) lowered when grouped, simply because you\'re now more people to share the fixed amount of XP/whatever, and you\'re able to kill bigger mobs which results in you get (dramatically?) more XP/whatever than you would do alone and ... Well, that was simple, wasn\'t it? :D


Yeah, I agree with that, you mean like a group of ten people kill a dragon worth 10 000 XP, so they should get 1000 XP each...
but what about the uber guy who smashed the dragon with his axe while the others were doing nothing ? should he get 1000 XP too ?
No, I think there should be like 75% you earn according to what YOU did, and 25% according to what the group did.

Anyway, that\'s just a detail, what really bothers me is that \"XP/Whatever\" thing, because it\'s more likely to be \"whatever\" than \"XP\"...
so let\'s say I\'m a noob wannabe wizard, and I group with an insanely strong warrior, who kills hundreds of enemies with his axe (yeah, I like axes). Remember we said you should get better at what you do ? so should I get stronger at fighting with an axe although :
1- I don\'t care about it, I don\'t even have an axe, or any other weapon
2- The only thing I did during the fight was to cast a healing spell on the Uber player
???
sig removed, it was kinda big ^^

Kiva

  • Veteran
  • *
  • Posts: 1366
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2003, 04:17:28 pm »
We-e-e-ell.. You\'d get XP/whatever for doing your healing spell, and you\'d get better at ax\'ing things? :D
\"Somewhere over the rainbow...\"

Rakurai

  • Wayfarer
  • *
  • Posts: 9
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2003, 04:57:15 pm »
If you\'re in the vicinity, you\'re not doing nothing, because you\'re a potential target.  Realistically, just seeing you there might have caused the enemy to react differently, change his tactics, possibly giving the uber-PC better odds of winning.

SnowWolf\'s idea does work, rather well, I made a similar system on a MUD I ran a while back.  One or more characters versus one or more other characters are taken into an equation that judges \'power levels\' of each individual.  Basically, it takes into account each characters stats, including armor and weapons, enhancing spells, and skills used during combat, and then keeps track of the length of fight and what characters were present and for how long.  In the end, the combined power level of the group over time vs the monster determines total experience, which is divided depending on how much of that power each character contributed and how long each spent there.  So, since I usually don\'t make much sense writing, I\'ll throw some numbers:

The party, consisting of uber-PC A and semi-newbie B, takes on a troll.  Based on stats, current health, and a few other things, it is determined that PC A has a power rating of 100, and PC B has a power rating of 20.  The troll has a power rating of 100 also.  Let\'s say they both team up and take on the troll.  That\'s 120 power vs 100 power, we give them 80 exp.  (just making up a number)  Now, let\'s say that PC A decides he has better things to do, and leaves at exactly halfway through the troll\'s death.  Assuming that PC B defeats the troll, we have 120 vs 100 for 50% of the fight, and 20 vs 100 for 50%.  Do the math and you can come up with a real number, it\'s morning here :)

One thought...  would you only receive experience if you actually killed the thing?  If you fight for a while and then flee, haven\'t you learned a bit about combat regardless?  Maybe exp can be awarded when you leave the scene, it would make the above equation go something like, PC A leaves halfway through, he is immediately awarded a chunk of experience (the game can just judge the troll at half dead based on hit points).  This puts the other character(s) fighting in a new fight with exp carried over from the last, PC B vs a half dead troll, with, say, 15 exp carried over from the first half.  We end up giving him a few hundred when he finishes.