Is the server open source?

[Javariel]

Im curious if the server is open source as well.  I recently come from Shadowbane, where the role playing community attempted to band together on 2 servers.  For a long while we managed to hold off the non-rpers, but its failing.  On Death, only my guild is left as a major rp power.  Its my belief that for rp to succeed in an rpg, the players need to control the server, and be able to kick and ban those who do not conform to the playstyle.  An open source server would do that- people could create servers for all the different playstyles.  So if this game has open source servers, I may be able to put it forward as a realistic next game for the guild.

[Javariel]

On further reading- is any of this open source?  I just read the liscense

2. You may not copy, modify, publish, transmit, sell, participate in the transfer or sale or reproduce, create Derivative Works from, distribute, perform, display or in any way exploit any of the Material released under this License unless expressly permitted by the PlaneShift Team.

3. You may use the provided Material, for personal use only, to connect to an Official PlaneShift Server only in conjunction with a Planeshift Client, distributed by the Planeshift Team. Offical PlaneShift Servers can only be designated by PlaneShift Team.



Both of those are specifically against the very ideals of the Open Source movement.  The idea behind open source is freedom- the freedom to do what you want with the a program, to alter it to work for you, and to use and change it to fit your needs.  YOu specifically DENY this ability, not once but twice, by forbidding derivative works and by forbidding me to use the software as I choose (by connecting to a server of my choice).  Any terms of a lisence that restrict usage of the product are against the open source creed and every OSS approved lisense.


If you want to make a proprietary game using open source components like crystal space, thats fine.  But don\'t make it sound like something it isn\'t.  By that license, the game is NOT open source.

[Grakrim]

Originally posted by Javariel
On further reading- is any of this open source?  I just read the liscense

2. You may not copy, modify, publish, transmit, sell, participate in the transfer or sale or reproduce, create Derivative Works from, distribute, perform, display or in any way exploit any of the Material released under this License unless expressly permitted by the PlaneShift Team.

3. You may use the provided Material, for personal use only, to connect to an Official PlaneShift Server only in conjunction with a Planeshift Client, distributed by the Planeshift Team. Offical PlaneShift Servers can only be designated by PlaneShift Team.

Both of those are specifically against the very ideals of the Open Source movement.  The idea behind open source is freedom- the freedom to do what you want with the a program, to alter it to work for you, and to use and change it to fit your needs.  YOu specifically DENY this ability, not once but twice, by forbidding derivative works and by forbidding me to use the software as I choose (by connecting to a server of my choice).  Any terms of a lisence that restrict usage of the product are against the open source creed and every OSS approved lisense.

If you want to make a proprietary game using open source components like crystal space, thats fine.  But don\'t make it sound like something it isn\'t.  By that license, the game is NOT open source.

Indeed, the CODE is opensource, but the CONTENT is bound under the planshift license, which protects the rights of the dev team.  In short, you may start your own server, but you MAY NOT use the content to run a server without becoming an offical server.  We\'ve already went through this once before, it should be in a thread somewhere in this forum...

[Moogie]

I believe the PS team define Open Source as the ability and permission for third party groups or individuals to contribute to the main project, rather than have people take from it to develop a \'different\' game that they could claim as their own...

...I think. o.O

As for servers, I don\'t think we\'ll be able to host our own. We want the players to be localised in one place, one server, in order to increase numbers. I don\'t think splitting the community up into many little player-hosted worlds would be a good thing. But that\'s just my opinion, nothing official.

[Javariel]

Perhaps that thread should be stickied, then.  But those terms outlined still make this not an open source application.  From http://www.opensource.org/docs/definition.php, the official definition

1. Free Redistribution

The license shall not restrict any party from selling or giving away the software as a component of an aggregate software distribution containing programs from several different sources. The license shall not require a royalty or other fee for such sale.



Term 2 of the planescape license puts restrictions on copying, thus violates the definition.





3. Derived Works
The license must allow modifications and derived works, and must allow them to be distributed under the same terms as the license of the original software.


Term 2 violates section 3 of the open source definition by denying the right to create a derived work.



8. License Must Not Be Specific to a Product
The rights attached to the program must not depend on the program\'s being part of a particular software distribution. If the program is extracted from that distribution and used or distributed within the terms of the program\'s license, all parties to whom the program is redistributed should have the same rights as those that are granted in conjunction with the original software distribution.


The terms of the license which disallow the artwork and code from being used on other MMORPGs breaks section 8 of the open source definition.  




Also as part of the definition, Open Source licenses govern only the REDISTRIBUTION of the contents.  NEVER, EVER, EVER their use.  So section 3 of the planeshift license breaks the open source definition.





As is, this license is NOT a valid open source license, and this app is not an open source app.  

Also, there is no way that they can claim it applies only to the other content, as the other content has nothing to do with official/non-official servers.  Thats a software (code) only issue.

Like I said-  if you want to make a proprietary game with open source components of a proper license (liek Crystal space which is LGPLed and can be linked to by proprietary code), thats fine.  But don\'t claim its open source.

[Drilixer]

*shakes head* you can have fun with the code... but the content will have to be changed... this is just like a website and if you don\'t like that then tough!  If you can\'t come up with your own content you sjhouldnt be making a game anyways

[Grakrim]

*Sighs* We\'ll have to get a dev in here again, like we did last time...

The engine is open source, you may redistribute it, you may copy it, etc, etc.  Its the engine that\'s GPL\'d, not the content.  You may use the engine to make a new game, as long as your game does not use the content of PS.

Code and Content are 2 seperable components, in this case.

[Drilixer]

Originally posted by Grakrim
*Sighs* We\'ll have to get a dev in here again, like we did last time...

The engine is open source, you may redistribute it, you may copy it, etc, etc.  Its the engine that\'s GPL\'d, not the content.  You may use the engine to make a new game, as long as your game does not use the content of PS.

Code and Content are 2 seperable components, in this case.

I fail to understand why people who complain about Planeshift\'s liscence can\'t grasp this concept

[Javariel]

Because the website isn\'t very clear about anything.  It talks about open source a lot, but makes it difficult to figure out what is under which license, and makes the implication in multiple places that the entire game is open source (which it is not).  You guys can do with some work there at some point.

Anyway, good luck with the project.  I wish you would go fully open source, I think there\'s major advantages to that route, but I won\'t preach at you.  I\'ll look elsewhere for a true open source MMORPG.

[Drilixer]

why do you need a full open source mmorpg?

[acraig]

Does this mean that any novel written in Open Office must be free as well?  Or any image drawn in The Gimp must be free?

Fine, then we will create our own license.

1) The source code is available to anybody that wants it. If you want to create derived works from the engine then no problems, go mad.
2) The art/music/content is claimed by the PS team and is not available for other projects. If you want to create a game using the PlaneShift code base then great, just create your own content to do it.  
3) The game is free.

Any questions?

There, no more issues about GPL, LGPL, Opensource, etc.  

The idea here is that the content that the artists/writers/musicans work damn hard on is protected in a couple of ways.
1) We maintain a \'PlaneShift\' image.  So that when people see our models, hear our music they know its us.  This maintains the quality of the name and that is very important when we rely on the kindness of sponsers.

2) Protects the artist from having their materials used in a fashion they deem unacceptable.  What happens if one of our models suddenly shows up in a game where you have to rape women and children?  

For the engine stuff, I don\'t give a damn what you do with it,  it\'s just a tool. Infact I would be estatic if somebody created a totally different game using the engine.

If you don\'t like our license agreements then the only thing I can say is too bad.

[Grakrim]

Thanks, acraig (Edit: And Venge, too).

Hopefully that kills anymore of these threads where people say they know better than the devs... Why would anyone think that anyone else want to risk prosecution from the almighty FSF by misusing the sacred license?

[Vengeance]

why do you need a full open source mmorpg?

The reason he wants it to be fully free is so that he can change two things in the code and run his own shard server.  The Planeshift game will be only run one way, on unmodified and certified official servers.

As others have said, the PS team strongly believes in open source and is contributing its entire codebase to \"the cause\".   The quotes from opensource.org are all correct and PS is in compliance with all of them with respect to its code.

I am very glad to see that most of the PS community understands these distinctions.

- Venge

[Javariel]

Why do I need a fully open source one?

Because I won\'t contribute my time and effort to one that isn\'t.  

I don\'t have an issue with you guys being proprietary.  Just clean up your webpage, as it is its confusing- it looks liek you claim its open when it isn\'t.




To answer a point you brought up about protecting the artists \"rights\" if it went fully open source.  What stops code I put out under an open source license (or you guys do- like this game\'s code) from being used by anyone you don\'t want to?  Nothing.  Just like it should be.  If I make a car, I can\'t tell you where to drive it after I sell it to you.  If I make a toaster, I can\'t say you can\'t make begals.  Why should art/code/anything else be different because its \"artistic\"?  It shouldn\'t.

If you can\'t agree with that, I\'d think twice about goign open source on the code.  Someone could take it and use part of it as a targeting system for a weapon.  Or use the networking code as the basis of a virus.  What can you do to stop it?  Nothing.  If you can live with that for the code, why not for the art?  If you can\'t with the code, you ought to reconsider your entire premise here.

ANyways, throwing this game back on the no interest pile.  Thanks for your time clearing this up.

[Drilixer]

Originally posted by Javariel
ANyways, throwing this game back on the no interest pile.  Thanks for your time clearing this up.

aw!  you\'re breaking our hearts