Author Topic: Game Independence  (Read 1707 times)

LoreWeaver

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Game Independence
« on: September 26, 2003, 04:20:59 am »
I haven\'t been able to run the game yet, due to setup problems.  But, I have toyed with customizing games based on Crystal Space in the past and have seen the (spectacular) screenshots of Plane Shift.  Needless to say, I\'m impressed despite my installation difficulties.

What I would really like to see is a system that supports a server and 3d graphics client framework that is independent of any particular game with a plug-in capability to customize the system to any game desired.  Such a system would raise the value of the code to the Open Source community tremendously, in my opinion.

My motivations are selfish, to be true.  I have written a Fantasy RPG, Legendary Quest, that I would love to implement using this technology.  I have a number of ideas that would make a cool game world, as I\'m sure many others do as well.  If you\'d like to get a feel for what I\'d envision such a game to be, please visit http://www.legendaryquest.com and download the books.  They\'re free.


Waylander

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« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2003, 04:22:47 am »
Im at that site right now, looks kick ass
<Jeraphon>oh khado
<Jeraphon>you so khrazy

Xil|sleeps: I love cadoras

Waylander, A.K.A: Cadoras, Khado, Nurahk, Armeen, Nostra ... God.

Saphire

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« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2003, 06:12:50 am »
194 pages for just the basic rule book?!

Thank goodness its free... i\'d hate to know how much i would have had to pay per page... 8o



 :P
really nice idea and RPG system, though.
Precious and beutiful, it is happy. The only time when it is not is when it is in a shape of a tear.

LoreWeaver

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« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2003, 06:49:45 am »
Yes, LQ is a very complete game.  Thanks for the vote of confidence.  I\'ve been working on it for over 20 years now.  Don\'t get intimidated by the size, though.  The Core Rules are only about 50 pages or so.  The rest are merely implementations of the core ideas: classes, skills, spells, monsters, etc.  All told, there\'s well over 1000 pages, although I haven\'t got the 6th and 7th books available for download yet.

In any case, the books show what I\'d like to see in an online RPG game.  Legendary Quest is based entirely on authentic European and Mediterranean folklore and mythology.  I think it would be really cool to have an online game based on these ideas.  That is, the game would be strongly influenced by the heroic tales of long ago rather than being fiction dreamed up by modern designers.  It\'s not that I don\'t think that the designers of PlaneShift (or EverQuest, DAOC, etc.) are doing a damned good job.  They are.  It\'s just that, in my opinion, a world based on actual folklore and mythology world seem more \"real\" to the players.  It has been my experience that such a world is more believable simply because it is based on concepts that the people of long ago actually believed.

Comments?

Kuiper7986

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« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2003, 07:39:36 am »
hold on 20 years?

Dang man, 20 years? t-w-e-n-t-y y-e-a-r-s what the heck.

I don\'t think anyone has spent 20 years on one RPG, well the site looks nice though. :)
My name is NOT pronounced, \"Kway-per,\" it\'s pronounced \"Kye-per.\"

Saphire

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« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2003, 08:23:48 am »
heh. that\'s one hell of a long list of skills and jobs. :D
Precious and beutiful, it is happy. The only time when it is not is when it is in a shape of a tear.

Wedge

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« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2003, 08:44:59 am »
You\'ll be able to take the source and manually implement what you want to do, only the artwork is proprietary.  But making some sort of template for a simple plug-in sounds a bit impracticle and not worth the effort given the amount of work that would have to go into to making something that would actually be worth plugging in is so great that such a team would probably have no problem working it into the open source anyway.  Least\' that\'s my guess.
Ninjas have feelings too.  Mostly they feel like dancing.



hook

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« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2003, 09:41:58 am »
good work, i hope you get a dev team pretty soon to make it real :D ...and since everything except the artwork in PS is under GPL, you can freely get the PS code (if you\'re not happy with just the crystalspace engine) from http://sourceforge.net/projects/planeshift
:emerald: The Treecastle *will* stand !!! :emerald:

in-game name: Seeln

Vengeance

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« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2003, 05:00:35 pm »
LoreWeaver, the Planeshift game engine--client and server--are free and open source for anyone to use on any game.  The Planeshift artwork and rules, etc., are not open source and cannot be used in other contexts.

Planeshift basically has 6 teams working on various aspects of the game, which you would need to duplicate in some fashion to make yours.

Settings - Yours is already done.
Rules - Yours is already done.
Coding - Use Planeshift MMORPG Engine
3d - Need to create.
2d - Need to create.
Music - Need to create.

In other words, if you can get some artists you can easily make your game.  On the coding side, I or the other coders would be glad to help you adapt it to your needs.

- Venge

LoreWeaver

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« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2003, 07:33:03 pm »
That is a very generous offer, Venge.  I\'ve finally been able to run PlaneShift and am duly impressed.

Ok.  I\'ll see if I can drum up enough interest with my LQ crowd to make a \"go\" of it.  I won\'t be able to focus my full attention to this for a little while as I\'ve still got two more books to put up on the LQ website before tackling anything new.

If the PlaneShift rules aren\'t Open Source, then it already sounds like the client and server are designed with a plug-in architecture.  After all, how else could they be Open Source and yet still incorporate the PlaneShift rules?  There must be a sharp boundary between the Open Source part and the proprietary part with some communications mechanism between the two.  Am I right?  If not, then that would be my first priority, since it would make the most sense to share in any improvements either party made to the basic client/server.

By the way, I wouldn\'t be surprised if the intermittent lag is being caused by the client\'s memory leaks (in that the OS has to periodically page memory in and out because of it).  But, you probably already know that.

Vengeance

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« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2003, 08:24:34 am »
Actually right now, some rules are in the code, like the six stats we have and that sort of thing.  The big difference is that where rules make the difference is in the data--the actual values used by the people and the items.  You could use our code and your own stats if you wanted, but if you want to make an entirely different combat system we could plugin-ize it for you and others.  We just haven\'t had a reason to do that yet.

Arzosah

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« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2003, 09:43:10 am »
Wow, I really hope you manage to pull this off!
I mean, something you worked that hard and long to create... It just can\'t fail!  :D

Xalthar

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« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2003, 02:07:35 pm »
All that material, and the Crystal space engine and the possible help of vengeance (and your own community) could put up a powerful game :D I hope you can manage to keep it free, if you ever get it running...

Drilixer

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« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2003, 04:12:56 pm »
You\'ve probably seen this before but hey: maybe you could use this site\'s information in your world:

http://www.godecookery.com/mythical/mythical.htm

paxx

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« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2003, 10:53:39 pm »
I think I have the recollection of playing this at some time in the past?(I think at a con in San Francisco?but I could be wrong)

LoreWeaver the game and amount of material you have (not to mentions it?s quality) is truly impressive.

What I hope to give as a general outline is some of the many things you need to consider as you go forward in this rout. And hopefully assist you in managing your time so as to have the best possible outcome.

First I will say that MMORPGs take time and a lot of effort, as I assume you already imagine. Using it to the best possible outcome is important.

Art; (3d and textures) will probably be the hardest part to get done. There are many things to do. In a way you are lucky as you will be able to concentrate on these facets more so then Rules and engine coding.

Data; in a paper and pencil game the GM can make many assumptions or generalizations that speed up game play. In a MMOG that is not a possibility, every building, wall, cliff?. Must have a stated (difficulty to climb number) this can change in various effects?but it has to be inputted.

Your Level system does not appear to conflict too much with our ?non-level system?  but you will have to figure how to account for luck in a game like this, specially given it?s real time  aspect.
One idea I have out of the blue (as I am writing this) is for luck to add benefits for a short amount of time each game day based on level/amount of luck. This refreshes at a certain amount per day, but does so in real time (not at a given moment) so when a player feels he needs all the bonuses he/she can get, they would press the luck button and it would take off ?luck time? as they it goes. And if they use half, then in half a day (game time) they would regain their lost luck time.

I am not saying that you should use the above example only that you may have to change the way things are done to retain aspects of your game.

Another thing you may need to consider is the amount of true combat time. In most MMOGs characters are in combat a lot, and since combat is played out a lot faster then in paper and pencil games (huge raids taking 8 hours that would take months to play out in a paper and pencil game) you exp and general progression system would need to be examined and somehow elongated.

The bonuses for a new level in skill may have to be increased, so players feel they have improved from level/skill 5 to skill 6.

One way to do this and maintain the system as you have it is to simply increase the number of levels or skills. Say from 15 to 150 or 1500. but at the same time you must maintain some sense of progression, specially at the lower end.

Filling up the world.
In paper and pencil games we have a huge city filled with all kinds of things, but we only annotate the VIP?s for the story, in MMOGs it is general that everyone has some function. And filling that in is a huge chore.
You might want to start with small steps. One starting rural town and the outlying adventuring area. One or two races, all the classes for them and levels 1-15.

That would give you a very starting point to get feedback and learn what changes to the initial concept have to change.

Amount of players; in a game like these 100-100,000 players in one location makes things very different then a paper and pencil game where adventurers/ hero?s are uncommon. In MMORPGs hero?s are a dime a dozen and ?dungeons? don?t get raided by groups of 5-20, they get pillaged by hoards of hundreds. How that is dealt with would need to be decided.

Death?is a major transitioning issue in these games, and how it should be dealt with.

Player Vs player interaction. While it is noble to say that all players can interact with other players as they would in real life, the majority of instances it would be the equivalent of having players in D&D that are level 1 doing combat with people that are lv 20 threats.

Role playing aspect. How is role playing enforced or simulated. (think about this one, and I would love to hear if you get a good short answer to this, but in reality any answer I would like to hear.)    

Making all the character choices ?cool? is important. It is as important as making it fun. Since people wish to be ?cool? in they alternate life.

In your game you use a D30 for rolls, or about a 3.5% change of any set result. With computers you can make this a d1000000000000 or in our case a roll of 0.000000000000001 ? 2
(don?t count the zeros I didn?t get it exact, but it is about 1^-15). This in our case ?PS? is applied to a large number of predefined variables and with the roll, be it opposed or static comes to a yes or no answer. Actually it is a no or yes/by how much answer.

So as you can see, you have things to think about.

Once you have made choices?test out your concepts and try to prove it out or not using some code or excel or some other chance analysis tool. And figure if your things are in the right scope for your hopes.

Magic is also hard, things will have to be added and taken out of your spells, because of subtleties and or lack of technologies, or likelihood of abuse. For example a mass charm spell, would be greatly annoying to players if the entire war band is finally organized and put together ( a week of planning and 3 hours behind schedule) and the dark wizard in the tower blows them all off in 30 seconds with one spell.


There are about 1000 other things to think about, but I hope this little list is of help to you, and if you need anything (minor) that I might be able to help in, I?d be happy to.

Oh, one other note, starting to seriously plan now, but not start for a year from now (just to say) is not a terrible thing if you have a good and defined concept that would reduce a lot of trial and error.

I trust that you have played EQ, DAOC, SWG, UO, and any other of the slew of MMORPGs if not?dedicate about 2-3 months of your life to ?research?.

It is important to learn not only to know what you dislike about them, but why some work, why others don?t, and how things should work out?UI, what info the players should have, (most games give all info of the ?magic? weapons) yet most planned not to do so, that often gets tossed in alpha or beta testing. As such it makes a ?detect magical function? spell useless.

Ok?I am done for now?.hope it helps a bit.
-Paxx