Author Topic: Planeshift and 64 bit Processor  (Read 3936 times)

Coyote

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« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2003, 01:45:55 pm »
That debate reminds me something....
\"640 Ko should be enough for everyone\" -
Bill Gates, 1981

I know... it\'s pervert to quote a so old topic...

But while we need to operate on big ints or to have a better precision in our calculations I think 256bits processors can be not enough in a couple of years for scientists... and for purposes like life simulation and society generation and simulation from multiples individuals (politic, life organisation...) 128bits processor farms will be a great step forward.

So expansion of registries size and of co-processing are essential... and even more essential... evolution. Actual architectures are too rigid, not dynamical enough. It will have to disappear, or to be simulated on new architectures for backward compatibility.
Don\'t ignore funny ideas...
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Fish

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« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2003, 03:32:42 am »
Being able to calculate with more bytes of data gives you more precision not speed.  Right now 32 bit processors are more than adequate for games.  The only time I?ve heard of a 64-bit number used in gaming is calculating the distance between planets in the solar system.

More precision does not generate more detail or more polygons.  And being able to calculate polygon position to more precision is not relevant. If someone could explain to me the benefits of using a 64-bit float over a 32-bit float I?d like to hear it.

What games need is speed.  More calculations per second.  My guess is running two 32-bit high-speed processors in parallel would be better than one 64-bit processor.  At this time that?s pretty much how it?s done.  The second processor is in the video card.

The statement was made this topic is better off discussed with the Crystal space team.  I agree.
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kbilik

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« Reply #32 on: November 05, 2003, 06:33:59 am »
So running two or three 16-bit processors at the same time will be better than having one 32 bit processor?

Like you said, right now 32 bit is the way to go. But that doesn\'t matter as it is inevitable (rather soon even) that 32 bit chips will be phased out. Sure, there will be support for 32 bit programs - but as this is a secondary function of such a chip, calculations per second will slow down.

I also see 64 bit precision being useful soon. Let\'s face it: our present games have graphics that still look cartoonish. The more photorealistic a game becomes, the more precision you need to use. Ditto for the physics engine and lights/shadow.

So today\'s \"wow\" factor games like Half-life 2 or Doom 3 will look like crap when compared to games that will be released 5 years from now. If Planeshift wants to compete, the developers of the engine must consider 64 bit computing and beyond.

Xandria

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« Reply #33 on: November 05, 2003, 09:43:24 am »
Quote
Originally posted by kbilik
So running two or three 16-bit processors at the same time will be better than having one 32 bit processor?


It depends on what you mean by better...

Quote

Sure, there will be support for 32 bit programs - but as this is a secondary function of such a chip, calculations per second will slow down.


No such thing as a secondary function for backwards compatibility on processors; the only thing that changes is the register size!!!!  It doesn\'t \"slow down\" a 64-bit processor to run a 32-bit app, it\'s exactly the opposite.

Quote

If Planeshift wants to compete, the developers of the engine must consider 64 bit computing and beyond.


Guess what?  The Planeshift Devs have NOTHING to do with \"the engine\" - go bug the CS people PLEASE!!!

If you all do that, then you\'ll all do me a favor by preventing my blood pressure from rising when I see this thread at the top of the forum again   X(

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kbilik

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« Reply #34 on: November 05, 2003, 01:30:49 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Xandria If you all do that, then you\'ll all do me a favor by preventing my blood pressure from rising when I see this thread at the top of the forum again   X(


Calm down, this is only a discussion. No one is forcing you or the devs to do this or that. If it does not apply to the Planeshift Devs, then this is handy to have on the forums to address similar concerns of other people.

If you want stressful... try waking up 5:30 AM and coming home 7:00 PM from taking pharmacology/pharmacy biochem courses in college and working.... now thats stressful   :D  .
« Last Edit: November 05, 2003, 01:31:38 pm by kbilik »

Fish

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« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2003, 03:29:42 am »
Kbilik sense you seem to be the one to pick up the 64-bit torch of knowledge let?s go over your response to my post.

I didn?t even mention the 16-bit processor, I said a 32-bit processor has adequate resolution to get the job done.  Then you go on to say? I also see 64-bit precision being useful soon? with absolutely no explanation of why.  Without the why your point is completely hollow.  So let me post the question again.  Explained to me the benefits of using a 64-bit float over a 32-bit float.  


In the scientific realm the 64-bit processor is a great thing.  It allows far more precise calculations at a greater speed at the machine level.  However in the game realm all you?re trying to do is to fool the eye into thinking a scene is more realistic.  Color, polygon position, sound reproduction, and polygon size are all easily expressed in 32-bit floating-point and integer arithmetic at adequate resolution to fool anybody.  Therefore faster 32-bit equals more polygons which equals better resolution.  So get to the point and explain why.
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Xandria

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« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2003, 06:57:42 am »
Quote
Originally posted by kbilik
I also see 64 bit precision being useful soon. Let\'s face it: our present games have graphics that still look cartoonish. The more photorealistic a game becomes, the more precision you need to use. Ditto for the physics engine and lights/shadow.


You do of course realize, that the smallest number that can be represented by a 32-bit floating point number is 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000014012984643248170709237295832899?

Oh, I\'m sorry, I guess that\'s not \"precise\" enough for you  :(

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kbilik

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« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2003, 07:47:16 am »
Quote
Originally posted by Fish
Kbilik sense you seem to be the one to pick up the 64-bit torch of knowledge let?s go over your response to my post.

I didn?t even mention the 16-bit processor, I said a 32-bit processor has adequate resolution to get the job done.  Then you go on to say? I also see 64-bit precision being useful soon? with absolutely no explanation of why.  Without the why your point is completely hollow.  So let me post the question again.  Explained to me the benefits of using a 64-bit float over a 32-bit float.  


This is why; just follow the next sentences and you\'ll know:

\"I also see 64 bit precision being useful soon. Let\'s face it: our present games have graphics that still look cartoonish. The more photorealistic a game becomes, the more precision you need to use. Ditto for the physics engine and lights/shadow. \"

Oh, and photo-realism doesn\'t just include more polygons. You can make an image have a few billion polygons and it still will look highly synthetic. When we talk about photo-realism, we also talk about a high quality physics engine (hint: this is where the precision kicks in). Sure, you can try to certain tricks to fool the eye... but I doubt it will work pretty well when other competing games don\'t resort to the tricks.

And we know that simply improving resolution doesn\'t cut it. What happens if you take a 32 x 32 picture and zoom in to 1600 x 1200 resolution  ;) ? Yes, details will have to be added.

Kinda old, but look here:

\"We\'re extremely excited about the upcoming AMD Athlon 64 processor. It\'s designed to run today\'s 32-bit games and applications and will actually, clock-for-clock, boost their performance relative to 32-bit AMD Athlon processors. But when you add 64-bits to the picture you can get additional capabilities and other performance boosts\"

here

But by far the most important feature right now (might change in a few years) would be more addressable RAM. How much would it speed up network intensive games like Planeshift? Sure, the connection speeds matter more, but RAM helps a lot too.

So if you want to plan ahead, just think about these options.

Xandria... nothing is precise enough for me  ;)  . Especially when you hit that bandwidth bottleneck with the 32 bit trying to use too much data.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2003, 07:48:39 am by kbilik »

Fish

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« Reply #38 on: November 07, 2003, 04:26:51 am »
Thank you. :D

By the way Lord of the rings is produced on a Linux cluster but their graphics is bad because it is done on 32 bit not 64 bit. Oh, and the Terminator, Star Wars, Hollow Man, and on and on...  Don\'t believe it.  It\'s the X86 and the only way they can sell it is to hype it. You was taken in by the hype.

Look at the DSP chips and you will see the light. They kill the poor old X86 line in all ways. And will wipe the floor with the whole X86 line in 64 bit. WHY? They\'re not compatible with the 8086!

More bits <> more speed in a chip.

More bits  = more speed in a buss (32 bit X 2) or (64 bit).

So \"Explain to me the benefits of using a 64-bit float over a 32-bit float.\" Not the hype. Get technical about it.

Once again take it up with the crystal space team. They can do something about it.   8)
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Xandria

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« Reply #39 on: November 07, 2003, 06:09:55 am »
Quote
Originally posted by Fish
More bits <> more speed in a chip.


Finally, someone who understands (and even used programming lingo, even though it\'s VB  ;) )

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kbilik

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« Reply #40 on: November 07, 2003, 06:50:54 am »
Layman\'s terms, please  8) . I\'m no programmer. We need the mainstream to understand your point as well as mine.

Now explain to me :

-Why and how do DSP chips kill the X86 line? Any proof; links; etc.

-Why bus speed will not improve graphics much. Why 32 bit bus speed will not soon become insufficient or slow down the servers.

-The difference between specialized software for static(planned and extensively modeled) movie special effects, and an ever expanding game that is very flexible (like Planeshift that needs to predict what happens when you swing that sword to monster A or jump on grass, etc.).

-Why not? Whats the problem with using the advantage that 64 bit processors might provide if they will be common pretty soon?
You are not thinking ahead, just dodging.

So you missed my point. Also, don\'t compare movies and their pre-rendered effects (which can take hours with the systems you described) with things that are interactive... that just doesn\'t work.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2003, 07:12:11 am by kbilik »

Xandria

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« Reply #41 on: November 07, 2003, 07:51:15 am »
*sigh*

A good friend and I were discussing the exact topic of the mainstream and 64-bit processing the other day.  Here\'s the problem: it doesn\'t work.

Guru: \"So what do you think of the new 64-bit processors coming out?\"
Newbie: \"64-bit?  What are we using now?\"
Guru: \"32-bit processors, and we\'ve been using them for over ten years.\"
Newbie: \"Oh, so these new computers will be twice as fast as the ones we now, right?  That\'ll be cool.\"
Guru: \"*sigh*  No, 64-bit only describes the size of the internal registers of the CPU.  Basically, how big of a number it can work on at once.\"
Newbie: \"So then they can use twice as big numbers?  That\'ll still speed things up a bit, right?\"
Guru: \"Only if you\'re using applications that work with really big numbers.\"
Newbie: \"Do I?\"
Guru: \"No.\"

The concept of how 64-bit processing is better than 32-bit processing is something that the layman (I\'m not accusing anybody here, I\'m just saying) cannot understand.  It takes a knowledge of how microprocessors function, how they store information internally, how they perform calculations, how they communicate with the rest of the system, and so on.  The majority of the population does not understand these things, and therefore, does not understand how 64-bit processing is better.  All they can do is \"assume\" it\'s twice as fast because 64 is twice the size of 32.

Now, I\'ll try to answer your questions:

-DSP: Never heard of it, can\'t help you here

-Bus speed: all the components in your computer are connected via a \"bus,\" basically an information highway.  Any data travelling from one place to another, be it processor -> graphics card, hard drive -> processor, processor -> memory, will all use the same bus.  Because we have 32-bit processors, that means that our bus size is 32-bits (note: I\'m still confused how 64-bit PCI slots can communicate with 32-bit processors, perhaps someone can explain this).  With 64-bit processors, we will likely see 64-bit busses, which means that we can push data all around our computer in chunks that are twice as big (communication via bus is parallel, that is, 32/64 lanes each carrying one bit).  What this will improve: loading times, because loading is the process of moving a chunk of information from one place to another, which could be the hydlaa plaza textures from your hard drive to memory, and from memory to your video card.  What this will not improve: your fps, because this is something that is calculated internally by your graphics processor on your video card, and server performance, the same deal because most of what the servers are doing is computing and shoving data across the Internet, and server performance will only increase with 1) faster processors (I said faster, not wider) and 2) more servers (better client connections, lower ping)

-\"static vs. dynamic\":

Movie Special Effects:
1. Create 3D models
2. Create a specific animation sequence for each model
3. Put all the models together for a single purpose (\"static\")
4. Render the scene (using your system CPU), frame by frame, and save it as a movie that you can use later

3D Games (Planeshift):
1. Create 3D models
2. Create a set of animation sequences for each model, for every action they can perform
3. Utilize game code to make the models animate in real-time, based on user commands (\"dynamic\")
4. Render the scene (using your graphic processor), frame by frame, and display the results in real time

-Why not?

I have already explained the main \"advantages\" of 64-bit: you can perform calculations on 64-bit numbers natively (as opposed to 32-bit processors which have to do something special to work with 64-bit numbers) which is something that is almost exclusively the realm of modeling (whether it be a graphical render of virtual 3D objects, of a scientific model of some real-world phenomenon) AND you will get a larger bus (push data around your computer faster).

So to your question \"Whats the problem...\" I answer: there is no problem with using the advantage; your problem (and everyone else\'s) is that they don\'t understand WHAT the advantages are.  If your code uses 64-bit numbers then your code will run a bit faster on 64-bit processors.  If your computer pushes a lot of data around, it will do that a bit faster.

And that is it, don\'t tell me I\'m dodging, because I\'m telling you that there is no reason to go out and buy a 64-bit processor the day they come out because you\'re throwing your money away!  In the future, 90% of people will use 64-bit processors, but this isn\'t the future, it\'s the present.  90% of the population uses 32-bit processors, and there\'s not a thing wrong with them.

Another thing: awhile back, Intel created the 8086 processor, their first 16-bit.  Everyone was all well and happy, but the thing was, no on had 16-bit devices, all people had was 8-bit.  They actually made another chip, the 8088, which was identical to the 8086, only it had an 8-bit external bus.  There wasn\'t a lot of demand for the 8086 because people didn\'t want to have to go out and pay to buy a bunch of new devices just so they could be cool and have full 16-bit power.  In all practicality, the 8088 was a success because it had all the features of 16-bit processing, but was cheaper because you could 8-bit components were a heck of a lot cheaper.

Note to kbilik: I spent a VERY long time typing up this post in response to yours.  Make it worth my while.

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Fish

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« Reply #42 on: November 07, 2003, 02:12:44 pm »
It\'s the chip that makes you\'re video card faster on you\'re computer. It\'s the other processors. If you have a new computer system with a new video card you\'re video card is 2X to 4X and even faster then you\'re main processor due to the DSP in the  video card. The point is the  video card you select for you\'re system rather then then the main processor has more impact on game performance. It\'s all about the DSP you have.

The movies use the same basic method as games to render a seen. They just have a way higher polygon count.

More  polygons = better seen.
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kbilik

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« Reply #43 on: November 08, 2003, 04:39:08 am »
Xandria, good stuff here. Just a few points of clarification.

Quote
Newbie: \"So then they can use twice as big numbers? That\'ll still speed things up a bit, right?\"
Guru: \"Only if you\'re using applications that work with really big numbers.\"
Newbie: \"Do I?\"
Guru: \"No.\"


That is what we want to find out... if Planeshift is better if it uses 64 bit extensions. Which brings us to your next point.

Quote
With 64-bit processors, we will likely see 64-bit busses, which means that we can push data all around our computer in chunks that are twice as big (communication via bus is parallel, that is, 32/64 lanes each carrying one bit). What this will improve: loading times, because loading is the process of moving a chunk of information from one place to another, which could be the hydlaa plaza textures from your hard drive to memory, and from memory to your video card.


Exactly what is needed by games that demand more and more RAM or data usage with every passing year.

Quote
And that is it, don\'t tell me I\'m dodging, because I\'m telling you that there is no reason to go out and buy a 64-bit processor the day they come out because you\'re throwing your money away! In the future, 90% of people will use 64-bit processors, but this isn\'t the future, it\'s the present. 90% of the population uses 32-bit processors, and there\'s not a thing wrong with them.


But we are talking about the near future, not the present. If Planeshift is ever evolving, then we will definitely need to think what it needs to do or change to suit the player in 3, 5, or even 10 years.

And let\'s not forget that a truly interactive game will need a good physics engine. These things are currently common in top notch first person shooters, but I see no reason why it can\'t be done in such a diverse and (soon to be) complex mmorph like Planeshift. We want to create the best game possible, right?

And no, I will not buy a 64 bit right when it comes out  :D . I tend to wait till prices become low and when reviews come in.

Quote
Note to kbilik: I spent a VERY long time typing up this post in response to yours. Make it worth my while.


Very good stuff. Maybe if the devs or engine devs decide to stick with our current 32 bit or switch the Planeshift  engine to 64 bit compatibility, this might be used in the FAQs to explain some of the reasons why (with some clarifications, of course).

Also Fish:
Quote
The movies use the same basic method as games to render a seen. They just have a way higher polygon count.

More polygons = better seen.


Movies are not interactive as explained before. This is why accuracy is not needed as the movie does not need to predict what happens if event A triggers event B.

Our game needs good shadow/lighting, particle dynamics (for spells, projectiles, whatever), sound dynamics, physics for object to object interaction (you push a box, how far or fast or high will it be moved; will you slow down/stop?). And much much more... That is, if you want the game to be top notch when it comes to graphics and interactive environments (But remember this doesn\'t always = fun factor, but it sure makes the game look and feel better

Xandria

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« Reply #44 on: November 08, 2003, 05:29:39 am »
Ok, I guess I still didn\'t make it simple enough for you to understand:

How 64-bit processing will make PS faster:
1) Faster loading of the program
2) Faster loading of the world files into memory, and textures into video card memory
3) Slightly faster program speed due to the enlarged bus between processor and memory
4) Marginally faster code execution if, and only if the code uses 64-bit numbers
5) The ability to access more than 4GB of RAM

Beyond that, there is nothing else about 64-bit processors that will make PS run faster, or increase your fps, or decrease your lag (to the best of my knowledge).

I would be interested to hear from the devs, if they even use 64-bit (double for us C/C++ people) floating point numbers.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2003, 05:30:01 am by Xandria »

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