Author Topic: Introducing and Question.  (Read 3854 times)

Cha0s

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« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2003, 03:20:06 am »
Java and C++ are very similar in fact, but since Java will probably be taking over in a few years, might as well learn it now.
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Psycon

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« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2003, 09:52:25 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Natrina
You still havent seen a thing and you are already saying it is a daydream? Then I hope they prove you are completly wrong in thinkin that. He already told us that is he studing somethin didnt he? Well then lets wait for the results, before speaking bad about it.

Low expectations sucks, motivation rules. You could at least be more nice.


The reason I say it\'s a daydream is that I haven\'t seen a thing. In this busines results take a long time to appear. A game requires a lot of hard work, skill and experience and mr chi seemed to lack the last two. I doubt he has good coding skills since I don\'t think directx is a language(I always thought it was a library of functions, might be wrong though). Wanting to learn is a very good thing, that\'s why I provided links to what might interest him but he shouldn\'t begin managing a team right from the start. Maybe after a while, when he knows more and it is more experienced. I heared some bad storyes about kids leading teams and that\'s why I doubt so much of him.

Another thing I wanna say is that c++ won\'t be replaced by java. Java is slower and not so flexible. Speed is very important in games.
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Cha0s

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« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2003, 03:23:07 am »
Java is more flexible, excuse me... (also great for cross-platform)

EDIT: Did I mention a lot easier to code? I\'ve talked to some students that took C++ before the switch: It seems to be a nightmare to debug...

Also, check this out: http://www.flat222.org/mac/bench/ . As you can see from these benchmark tests, C++ is definetly faster, however, the overview of the languages at the bottom of the page shows a better balance of features, including debugging and cross-platfrom usage (Portability) in Java. The author also mentions a speed increase in Java, and whether or not Java overtakes C++ in the speed area or not, I think that the other advantages give it a solid base as the next language for the limelight (so to speak).
« Last Edit: October 22, 2003, 03:42:18 am by Cha0s »
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Xandria

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« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2003, 04:10:50 am »
Java will NEVER be what C++ is, I don\'t care how many colleges are switching, and what\'s for certain is that C++ will never be forgotten, because it will stay around forever.

Java came out awhile ago, if I recall, so answer me this:

How many commercial games have been written in Java?
How many operating systems have been written in Java?
How many nuclear reactor monitoring systems have been written in Java?
How many ICBM guidance systems are written in Java?

Why isn\'t Java used for these things?  Because it\'s not up to the task, it just can\'t take REAL programming assignments.  For those little flashing \"shoot the target and win free mouthwash\" banner ads, people use Java.  For real programmers, C++ is the language of choice.

Quote
Originally posted by Cha0s Did I mention a lot easier to code? I\'ve talked to some students that took C++ before the switch: It seems to be a nightmare to debug...


[extreme sarcasm]
I know, let\'s write everything in Visual Basic, that\'s really easy to code!!
[/extreme sarcasm]

And the only time it\'s a nightmare to debug your C++ code is:
1. You can\'t write very good code
2. Your code has to reference the code of someone who doesn\'t write very good code

I\'ve been using C++ for years, and debugging is extremely simple if you know what you\'re doing.

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Jessyn

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« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2003, 09:16:44 pm »
Xandria is sooooo right here, it\'s not even funny. C++(or the classic C) is still widely used because it\'s fast flexible.  I\'ve only ever found ONE language that is faster, and you DON\'T want to try debugging assembly, trust me on this one...

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Cha0s

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« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2003, 01:10:24 am »
Very good points. Now listen to this: Only in the past 2 years or so has Java begun to be developed into a serious language. Over the past two years Java has shot up as a language and rules the world on the internet (is there such a thing as a C++ Applet?). As people begin to realize its internet potential, Sun Microsystems (its creator) is beginning to enhance the software to provide more ease of use and power. The overall point is that a programmer can code more quickly and easily in Java and thus create more Applications/Features in less time, and if Sun comes through with its updates Java will become considerably faster. Also note that compiled Java code runs a lot faster than interpreted Java code, a big part in the \"Java is 10 times slower\" myth. Anyway, read the paper at the link, and try, objectively, to tell me what you think, with no bias one way or the other (and if you like, point me to a source and I\'ll do the same).

http://users.iafrica.com/b/bc/bchall/javavscpp.html
« Last Edit: October 23, 2003, 01:23:54 am by Cha0s »
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Xandria

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« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2003, 03:57:15 am »
BTW, my opinion may seem biased, and that\'s because it is; I\'ve been using C++ for a long time (for and 18 year old) and I know that I want to be a C++ programmer as a career.  Nothing will possibly change my opinion (just wanted to let you know).  Still, I will try to stay as object as I can.

However, if you\'re going to ask a C++ programmer to objectively compare and contrast C++ to Java, you need to find a better document than the one you posted; it\'s obviously biased towards Java.  You can\'t ask someone to analyze something objectively when the document itself is biased.

Quote
While it may be considered a powerful feature, many find it complicated  and confusing  and thus creating problems  for the programmer.


Look at the words I\'ve bolded.  Someone (an inexperienced programmer, that is) reading this is alread going to frown upon C++, because the document makes it sound unfriendly.

Also, I must say C++ is an OOP, and the inheritance model is excellent for many, many applications for programming.  It\'s not all that difficult to implement if you understand how it works.

Quote
The main disadvantage is that C++ programs are not portable once compiled and although it is possible to compile one and the same C++ program to various platforms, this is usually done with great difficulty, to say the least.


It is true that C++ programs written without the intention of being cross-platform are usually difficult to port.  This is because the programmers write for the system(s) of the target end user.

However, if you actually write your code with the intention of being cross-platform, you can use the exact same code for any variation of computer you wish to build it on.  Linux is (most of the distributions are, at least) written in C/C++, and you can download the exact same code to build on your x86, PowerPC, Sparc, Nintendo 64, etc.

Quote
This burden for the programmer of memory management is often the source of bugs, crashes, memory leaks and poor performance.


Seriously now, \"burden\" is a horrible word to use in an \"unbiased\" article.  Again, memory management is something that comes with the territory; if you\'re going to write code in C++, you learn how to manage memory correctly and efficiently, and if done correctly gives few problems at all.  At least this \"burden\" allows us to free up our memory when we\'re done, instead of waiting for the garbage collector to come pick it up.

Quote
Unfortunately due to it\'s complex  nature it is also the source of many bugs, such as the dangling pointer.


OMFG, the one thing I can\'t stand is when people complain about pointers.  It\'s not that complicated!  I\'ve sat through three C/C++ college courses, and in each case people whine about how pointers are sooo hard.  I simply do not understand why everyone complains; I have never had a problem with pointers.


Well, that\'s about as objective as I\'m willing to get with this article.  If I find time, I\'ll try to find a more \'unbiased\' piece to analyze.


Quote
Originally posted by Jessyn

Xandria is sooooo right here, it\'s not even funny. C++(or the classic C) is still widely used because it\'s fast flexible. I\'ve only ever found ONE language that is faster, and you DON\'T want to try debugging assembly, trust me on this one...


Hahaha, oh man, assembly is hardcore  :D

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Davis

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« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2003, 04:21:59 am »
Java is based on C++ anyway.
I\'ve been trying to teach myself C++ for the last two years or so, and I go pretty far. And the thing about pointers that most confused me was where to put the little stars. Naturally, it didn\'t take too long to figure that out. :D

Vengeance

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« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2003, 06:36:22 am »
Java will continue to be a niche language for servers for the foreseeable future.  This puts it in the same league as things like ASP and VBscript.

The market agrees with me.  See this chart: http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=SUNW&t=5y&l=on&z=m&q=l&c= for proof.

(i.e. it peaked in summer of 2000 around $65/shr and is now worth about $3/shr unadjusted for splits.)

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ya old fraggle

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« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2003, 01:34:19 pm »
I am no programmer in the software sense of the word but i do have web design background, so heres my suggestion.

Why now modd an already existing game to begin with as most of the hard work has already been done and that will give you and your team a great base to move in to creating your own standalone products.

p.s. if you need a (novice) web designer and would like to train him i\'m ur man.

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« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2003, 04:45:55 pm »
A little update and Psycon, I might answer some things for you.


Okay, I am not learning C++ anymore.. I am going to move to Visual Basic because the book I have on programming DX only supports VB. Furthur: I do have a lot of small games and I have written 2 tutorials for QB. but these game are so non-graphical I didn\'t put them up for download, you can always ask by PM or Mail if I will submit them but most games I will have to rewrite because I just had a new computer( :D ). Furthur, I do see your point and I know what you mean but a little information: Netgamers inc. survived 2 years now and I am planning to make that number grow.

Besides, were keeping the board and website alive to compensate the lack of activity in updating games and programming.

I really could use a lot of motivation and I think that this is helping me alot.

I want to thank you already and did I won a prize already  8o ...


Anyway: I am glad I am taking in the group so fast, I only have some problems with connecting to PS, but I am going to fix that or post it somewhere else.


Thanks all,

~Bjorn and Netgamers inc.

ps.:
Quote
Originally posted by ya old fraggle


p.s. if you need a (novice) web designer and would like to train him i\'m ur man.


I am looking for someone who could teach me advanced webdesigning.. will you assist me?
« Last Edit: October 23, 2003, 04:47:10 pm by Mr. Chi »

chrischoo

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« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2003, 06:57:38 pm »
From a non-programmer\'s view (mine), it appears to me that Java is making inroads into the market and is starting to mature and stabilize. I\'m seeing it start to be in more demand, especially since many enterprise server systems have this tilt towards Java and where the enterprise lies, Java and $$$ lies.

Still, it seems that Java has some problems with number-crunching. It\'s getting more efficient, but as long as it\'s held back by this JVM thing I don\'t see how it can get closer to the machine and do things faster than doing it in C or assembly language. I\'m not saying JVM is a bad thing - The tradeoff here is that you get your cross-platform compatibility but there\'s a little sacrifice in speed.

Games (save cellphones) need that speed, so Java has been ignored in this field, except if speed was less of a concern (eg applets) and cross-platform compatibility was a must. I\'ve heard of a local university was trying out Java 3D as part of some research project and it was *really* bad.

What I\'m trying to say is that you shouldn\'t base your decision to use a language based on what you think is greater, but whether it is relevant, and useful. I have a friend who moved from C++ to Java and he\'s been extolling how Java is getting better and better, but that doesn\'t prevent him from acknowledging the importance of C++.

Another thing is that I have a feeling that programmers will eventually need to know both unless they would love to remain ignorant about what market the \"other\" language serves. No point being a zealot if you can get the best of both worlds and know when to use either.

Cha0s

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« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2003, 03:39:47 am »
chrischoo, the middle field. Excellent point, and I think you are right. Next year I will probably take the AP Java course and learn Java to its fullest extent. If the next release is promising enough to oust C++ and put an end to it totally (unlikely) then I\'ll stay there. If not, I\'ll take my independant study in C++. Xandria, you\'re right that the article I cited was very biased, however, it\'s the only one I could find that wasn\'t in programmer talk (not useful for anyone but us and other programmers). I mean, do they care if C++ can have a main function return a value or not? :P
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Psycon

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« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2003, 09:08:48 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Mr. Chi
A little update and Psycon, I might answer some things for you.


Okay, I am not learning C++ anymore.. I am going to move to Visual Basic because the book I have on programming DX only supports VB. Furthur: I do have a lot of small games and I have written 2 tutorials for QB. but these game are so non-graphical I didn\'t put them up for download, you can always ask by PM or Mail if I will submit them but most games I will have to rewrite because I just had a new computer( :D ). Furthur, I do see your point and I know what you mean but a little information: Netgamers inc. survived 2 years now and I am planning to make that number grow.


Sorry for beeing so harsh on you Chi. It seems you are a good team leader after all. I wish you good luck.

About not learning c++ anymore, that is a big mistake. Just point me to a good game coded in vb and I\'ll join your team (I am not a good coder anyway :) ). Not all books are good. C++ is the language of games. Just ask anyone in the business. Read some articles on gamedev.net about how games are made and you\'ll see I\'m right. You could also try some net tutorials on DX too, but I always thought a book is better, but not any book, a good book(whith C++ examples).
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Mr. Chi

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« Reply #29 on: October 24, 2003, 10:33:48 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Psycon
Quote
Originally posted by Mr. Chi
A little update and Psycon, I might answer some things for you.


Okay, I am not learning C++ anymore.. I am going to move to Visual Basic because the book I have on programming DX only supports VB. Furthur: I do have a lot of small games and I have written 2 tutorials for QB. but these game are so non-graphical I didn\'t put them up for download, you can always ask by PM or Mail if I will submit them but most games I will have to rewrite because I just had a new computer( :D ). Furthur, I do see your point and I know what you mean but a little information: Netgamers inc. survived 2 years now and I am planning to make that number grow.


Sorry for beeing so harsh on you Chi. It seems you are a good team leader after all. I wish you good luck.

About not learning c++ anymore, that is a big mistake. Just point me to a good game coded in vb and I\'ll join your team (I am not a good coder anyway :) ). Not all books are good. C++ is the language of games. Just ask anyone in the business. Read some articles on gamedev.net about how games are made and you\'ll see I\'m right. You could also try some net tutorials on DX too, but I always thought a book is better, but not any book, a good book(whith C++ examples).



You must know I really appreciate these kind of discussions.

Okay, a good game written in VB is Unreal.

If I am not mistaking of course. If Unreal was written in VB(Which I thought I read somewhere), means that around 80 Modifications which where officially released are also written in VB.

I know, my book only helps with VB, besides: C++ is a language I can\'t understand too good right now. I should go to school for it and when I\'ll do that, you\'ll hear it.

Anyway: I am moving to VB and however I do know NOTHING about it, I know it supports DX and that enough for me. I am going to start learning tomorrow(Borrowing a book on it tomorrow). Besides: Lark11Uk of Table-Spoon Entertainment(Which has fused with Netgamers inc. only wanted to keep working under their own name) made an engine in VB and their like us(same ages). This Engine was able to get 150 FPS on my old computer(400 MHZ). They only loaded a simple model in the Engine, but you was able to turn around it. I\'ll ask Lark to mail it to me so I can put it up for download.


Keep the discussion up guys :).