RolePlaying in its purest form

[Ghostslayer]

If you want to play a game to just watch the numbers grow big you should play Progress Quest   It has about the same usefulness as any other hack \'n slash \"RPG\".

But seriously though, while my thoughts do not sway quite as far as others, I have played some tabletop roleplaying games, and am currently playing some D20 Modern on a message board setup.  Each have been a lot of fun, and its great to get into character and roleplay once in a while.  I have to admit that I was pretty bad at first, but it sorta grows on you.
An OOC chat would be necessary in my mind though, as even in my tabletop roleplaying experiences we are not roleplaying 100% of the time.
But, I think that if we can encourage roleplaying in the game, this would definately be a good thing.

[Fanomatic2000]

I had no problems reading your posts, it\'s very professionaly written, and you have some interesting points there Golbez.

There is very few graphical games today that focuses on true RP rather than hack n\' slash. Well, there is Neverwinternights of course, but I\'ve only seen three servers that strictly enforces roleplay, of which only one has the true RP-feeling.
I prefer graphical MMORPG-games in front of text-based MUDs, but it also forces me to choose between a beautiful game with nice graphics, soundeffects and wonderful soundtracks, but without the true feeling of a world that live and breath, and a text-based MUD that lacks both graphics and sound, but compensates this with incredible athmosphere and story, and this much thanks to the players behind the characters.
What if those were combined into one. A graphical game where you can live out your dreams together with other players and create a world that is actually alive, instead of just another hack n\' slash MMOG. You can listen to the athmospheric sound-effects and music, and watch the azure sun rise over Yliakum \"for real\".

I think it can be done.

Roleplaying can be both hard and simple depending on who, or what you choose to play as. For example A wise and mighty wizard is usually harder to play than a dumb orc, but both roles are important since they give life to the world.
I started to play as a dumb, half-orc in NWN, and even though the role was easy to play I had many good laughts and crazy dialogs when I followed him and his companions on their adventures. Roleplaying is like watching a movie, with the difference that the manuscript is written in real-time by you and the characters around you. It\'s the players who decides if the \"movie\" will be epic, comic, dramatic, romantic and so on.
Many players doesn\'t want to roleplay because they think they suck at it, but so what? I wasn\'t very good at it from the beginning either, but I learned, and then I realised that a game can be so much more than just Hack n\' slash.

To Roleplay another being is hard, but if you never try, you\'ll never make any progress.

[Leander256]

I\'m not going to be original: Nice post! I\'ve been playing tabletop RPGs (I like to say \"real ones\") for years and roleplay is very important to me.

In my humble opinion, the confusion about video games is that most of them called RPGs are just games taking place in some heroic-fantasy world, whatever the player is able to (not) do.

I trust devs for making an interesting world where l33t0rz would be allowed, but would get bored. What about hiding stats of the character and not showing experience points? I remember playing landstalker on megadrive, it was an adventure game quite linear, but you had an hidden sword level. When you begin the game it takes you two slashes to kill the weakest monster, many slashes for others, but the more you play, the more you kill them easily. And that\'s really nice, because all of a sudden you realise you killed that monster in one slash instead of four a few hours ago, and you think \"wow! I\'m being better hour after hour\". The surprise effect is nice, and quite realistic. That would add more depth to the game, for instance:
Your guild, the Blitzers, is in open war against the Cabal. You\'re prudently walking in the streets, going to the wizard shop, and in the dead-end, you encounter the infamous Xordan! You grab the hilt of your sword, and nervously think about the rumours you heard about him: It is said that this guy killed a Trepor in one hit! Those damn monsters that killed two people of your party last month and left you a big scar on the chest. You chose to save your life and run the fastest you can.
What you didn\'t know is that Xordan is weaker than you at the sword, he just had a tough luck (one in a million, so according to Terry Pratchett it occured) hitting the Trepor on a vital spot.
And now that I\'m thinking about it, coupling that with the idea of giving malus when you try to use a weapon for which you don\'t have the required level skill would be even more realistic, even if it would add difficulty when choosing a weapon.

PS: The characters and events depicted in this story are fictitious. Any similarity to actual persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental.

[Kiva]

Geez, Leander, you read my mind even before I thought of that thing. Hiding everything that has the slightest resemblance to stats/skills/abilities or what-so-ever is the greatest thing that could be done. If you don\'t have XP, you can\'t powerlevel. If you can\'t see your sword %, you can\'t powerlevel it, etc. Of course, you can figure out how good you are by fighting tougher and tougher monsters, but think about it. Doing it that way would actually make you think about your characters safety instead of just jumping into a tough battle with a Demon+5 because you know your STR is 5000 and you can kill it in 700 hits, you just need those 386 healing pots to regenerate your 922 HP while you\'re fighting, and the Demon+5 can\'t hit you because of your l33t shield of Anti-Demon+5 and your 9915 DEX

(Yes, I think your HP should be hidden as well, or maybe you shouldn\'t even get more HP as you progress, you just have the HP your character started out with and you should just have dodge abilities (hidden as well) and toughness (makes hits do less damage to you - also hidden), etc.) ... If you get the idea..?

And to whoever wrote that thing about winning an MMORPG. I\'ve actually read how to win an MMORPG.

If there is a number, make it higher.
If there is a skill, get better at it.
If there is a bar, make it grow bigger.

If you just continue along those lines, you will eventually \"win\" the MMORPG because you\'ll have the highest number, the best skill, and the biggest bar, and you can complete anything in the game.


Edit: Unkillable monsters make legends, and legends are part of roleplaying. So make unkillable monsters, and we\'ll all be happy.

[Golbez]

Good input everyone! It is satisfying to see the thread getting this amount of attention.

Hiding stats? Hey there is an idea I had not thought of before. It could work in a very satisfying way for both players and developers! Maybe we should start a new thread with that suggestion as a specific topic, so the details can be worked out, no?

Heh, Sunken, yes. I have played RPGs. Some of them include famous titles such as Final Fantasy II (or IV), III (or VI) V, and VII, Baldur\'s Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Daggerfall, Morrowind (only once, very briefly), Fallout I and Fallout II, Breath of Fire I and II, Secret of Mana I and II (Noticed the SNES famous RPG titles already? Tales of Phantasia, and yadda yadda...

Oh yes! Try to find the connection between my name and Final Fantasy! =)

My low end PC and lack of console has forced me to neglect the latest titles, though (Ha! This year I shall be going away for University, to study Graphic Design. That gives me an excuse to buy a more powerful beast!)

So no, I did not play many of the new ones, and many others like Icewind Dale I regret to have missed, although I will purchase them as soon as I come across a copy! Planescape: Torment is also in my \"To Play\" list, as well as many others. And I am one of those that gasped and whined when Fallout 3 was cancelled.

And I still want to hear of The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion, which was once said to be Morrowind\'s sequel. I never found out if it was in process of creation or just a rumour.

Firstly, I think that with \"book RPG\" you mean either table top D&D, or MUDs, MUSHes, and all those MU* games.

Secondly, cRPGs (Computer RPGs, single-player, not to be confused with an Online RolePlaying game), offer less range of choices, particularly the Final Fantasy series, that -assigns- you the control of a character. Nevertheless, the FF is a particular and original kind of game, very console style. It is quite hard to compare it to what PlaneShift can do. And do not take me wrong! I am a devoted fan of Final Fantasy! It differs in concept to a MMORPG, though.

An Online RolePlaying game offers more possibilities, more liberties. There is no \"main plot\" you must stick to. I would say that the cRPG that best reflected this freedom was The Elder Scrolls series, by Bethesda (For neophytes: Arena, Daggerfall and Morrowind).

And I never suggested that the player would simply watch, did I? Quite the contrary! I am saying that the player SHOULD be the one that creates the stories, anecdotes, reputations and such through their actions in game!

I do not speak for you, but I am totally convinced that my idea is not the \"dumbest\" out there

Fanomatic, I also think that an online game with real RolePlaying can, and will someday be done. I am just trying to accelerate that process by pointing out: \"Hey lookie! It can be done right here, right now, with -this- game!\".

Or that is what I believe. Either way, we shall see what happens.

Keep the thoughts flowing! I am always reading!

- Golbez

[Draklar]

here\'s a nice quote about cRPGs:

by J. Harkavy
Computer Roleplaying Games can be a lot of fun, but when it comes to true, feel it in your blood, roleplaying, it tends to fall short. And, many gamers are very territorial or passionate about what they play. I have heard arguments about how CRPGs should not be called roleplaying because it just doesn\'t fit the bill. Don\'t get me wrong, I have been roleplaying for over 20 years and I do enjoy CRPGs. But the similarities just aren\'t enough. Typically a computer or a video RPG has you taking the perspective of the main hero. The interaction of multiple characters is lost in this focus. Instead, we have sidekicks, extensions of the main, the only differences sometimes being a different quirkiness or affectation, helping their leader achieve the required goals.

I took it from this website

[Ghostslayer]

Wow, I never thought about hiding stats before, but I think that this would be a great idea!
For all those people who like realism in games, this would provide another dimension of that.

Eg. A swordsman in real life has no way to tell how powerful he is with his sword, all he knows is how much he has used his blade.  If, for example, he is talking with a fellow swordsman about their own abilities, each of them may have been using the sword for 5 years each.
Now, one may think that these swordsman were on equal footing if they were to duel, but unknown to each of these swordsman is how much each of them have trained & how they trained in this time.
One may not have been in a real battle before, training under a master a few days a week.  The other may have been trained for a year under a master, practiced everyday, then went out adventuring for four years, where he faced many foes.

This opens other oportunities as well.  Your character finds a new weapon on the ground after defeating some foe.  You pick up the weapon, and find that it is something that you have never seen before.
In game, you may move your mouse over the item and the description reads:
You have no idea what this weapon is.  You need to get it identified.
Once you get it identified, you now have a name, but the description now reads as such:
Case 1: The weapon feels extrememly heavy in your grasp.  You feel that if you made use of it, you would hurt yourself.
Case 2: The weapon is light in your grasp, but the shape of the weapon is not what you are used to.  You will need to get training to use it properly.

Or something else along those lines...

Again, this could be applied to crafters as well; say a smith gets ahold of a new ore.  Now even though this smith may have been dealing with metals for a long time, they wouldn\'t know immediately how to make use of it.
Couple of options would follow, eg. the smith could experiment with it and possibly ruin the ore, or has to go on a quest to find a master smith to teach him such things.

This way, you can\'t just say to yourself: \"Oh, only 3 more points in my sword skill then I can use (weapon name).\"  Everything would be in a relative sense, and this same weapon would just have a description of how comfortable you are weilding it.

Hopefully that makes sense... I\'m kinda rambling on right now

[Draklar]

aye, this would be great.
But for health you need something to show ye how does thy char feel. I\'m not talking about bar or counter, but maybe flashing screen when yer close to death and/or some other thingy that would change its color...

as for the hit points, they should be getting up in a time. When yer gaining experiance in battle (I don\'t mean the points ), not only yer harder to harm, but also you can lose more blood before passing out.

[Golbez]

There is an explaination why there is an increment in HP everytime you level up in a D&D skill set (either Editions 1, 2, 3, 3.5, or whatever)

The Health Points represent the current physical status of the character. What does it mean that, after a warrior goes from level 7 to 8, his HPs raise according to the roll of a die and an attribute modifier?

Let\'s see a particular situation. Booboo the Warrior is prowling as he advances through a damp and cavernous dungeon. The passages get narrower and the slippery mud on the ground makes it harder to advance. Were it not for his torch in his hand, Booboo would not even be able to see his hand!

A hundred feet at the distance, a tempting light invites the explorer to keep going. The end of the tunnel at last! He accelerates his pace, and in his rush trips over a thick rope and falls down.  A dozen spears dart from the ceiling with a ferocious velocity, and threaten to end our brave hero\'s life.

A roll of the die indicates how much damage Booboo receives after setting the trap. If he has enough HP, he survives. If he doesn\'t, he is either swoon or dead.

A level 10 fighter has a bunch more HP than a character of the same class, but lower levels. Why? Because he has more experience. It is not that the fighter grew a thicker, steel-like skin and is now more resistant to the spearheads\' deadly attack. No! The extra HPs represent the fighter\'s ability and expertise to avoid death in a life-threatening situation. Logically, a level 10 fighter will have more experience and awareness than a level 6 one. That is why he has more HP!

Makes sense? It does to me! I have read a very similar example, I do not recall if it was from the manual of Baldur\'s Gate or the one for NeverWinter Nights, if any of those.

Statistics, skill advancement, point distribution, class based systems. They are all there to back up the RolePlaying.

When one is playing a table top RPG, it is a necessity for it to be all public and viewable at all times. We need to do the calculations and rolls, after all!

In a MMORPG, the client, the computer, does it all for us. The die rolls, the skill raises, etcetera. It is not indispensable for us to know the exact number at which our Long-Sword skill is at. But we may have a rough idea if we go to the Arena or join a Martial Tournament!

It would make everything more entertaining and add a bit of gambling to the game.

Suppose Guild A is in a war against Guild B. A member from Guild A (let us call him Aethus) and another from Guild B (Mmmm...he will be Brehlak). They both carry the emblems of their respective organisation, but Aethus is too busy checking his backpack and has not yet noticed Brehlak\'s presence.

Brehlak immediately draws his shortblade and prepares his buckler, but takes a closer inspection at Aethus\' equipment. A silver long sword, a shield with a exquisite jewel engraved on the center, a polished conical helmet that reflects the light of the Crystal as if it were a perfect mirror.

It is time to make a decision for Brehlak. Will Brehlak take the chance and face his rival, in the name of his Guild\'s honour? Or will he play safe, because judging by Aethus\' belongings, the enemy may be far more capable and powerful than him! Or perhaps, Aethus wears such elements as a deterrent for his foes, and is in reality a mere weakling?

I see some interesting possibilities...

And perhaps, the health state of a character can be indicated by its animation. Five poses for five different wound levels.

For example, when in marvellous physical condition, the character would stand without effort, appear vigorous, be able to run without problems!

On the contrary, when almost dead, the character would be barely standing, perhaps needing to kneel as his legs cannot carry his entire weight. Running is out of the question, and a deplorable limp shows that he is in dire need of a healer.

Fill in the gaps with less exaggerate animations and poses, and you have your health levels!

Just a few more cents into into the piggy bank.

- Golbez

[windwalker]

well Golbez i dont know where to start..... maybe with the fact that if you EVER write a book.... I\'ll read it... infact im begging you to write a book, and im dead serious.  

i have never taken so long to read 1 thread... and after i post this i think i\'ll re-read it  ... you should condence it Golbez and send it to a gamming magazine or something.  And as for english not being your first language... you make me feal ashammed.

A) your points i agree with... Totally (unless i missed something with the first reading)... its so nice to find people likeminded on the net.

B) i have not roleplayed much in my life, mostly based on where i live but i make that up in reading and dreaming... now my reading amount makes up for the fact that i havent roleplayed much, i can roleplay.
However there are people on the internet who play games like Everquest and have no idea what an rpg are.  These people are comming to Planeshift and because they do not know better they bring there language which they think is  cool, shows Skill... we have to teach them what roleplaying is about.  Maybe making it manditory to read the rules of the game and a section on roleplaying before they can play would help.  Games become so much better with roleplaying and if people can be shown that they will keep their OOC chat to programs like MSN. they wont even bother to do much in ingame OOC channels.

C) Hidding player stats... the idea seems okay however it forces players to keep track of their character\'s development themselves... how do you know if you can kill that creature you where bragging about?... it would be a bad thing if you where trying to make your character trustable and you couldn\'t carry through with your bragging....


D) I cant formulate my thoughts as well as you Golbez... Grrrr... its annoying... Hope you play planeshift in the next update... it would be a pleasure to meet someone like you in a roleplaying state.... ( you too Darkmoon... i remember way back in IRC you came up with so many interesting deaths for me i gave up)

Hope i didn\'t contradict myself...

P.S. im serious about the book Golbez

[Draklar]

Originally posted by windwalker
C) Hidding player stats... the idea seems okay however it forces players to keep track of their character\'s development themselves... how do you know if you can kill that creature you where bragging about?

well in real life you can\'t know if you\'ll kill something you never fought before...
you could only listen to stories that tell about the creature and try to guess from them if yer a worthy enemy for the beast...
And this might give some fear while fighting creatures, you can\'t be sure that newly discovered one will fall under thy sword... and that I like :]

[Golbez]

More compliments! I feel undeserving!

There are RolePlaying games, and this time I am not speaking about computer gaming, in which if you are not aware of at least the basics of the context in which the plot takes place, and ignore the set of stablished rules that the GM will take for granted, then you shall find yourself completely lost and unable to make even the slightest progress.

This is a particular trait of RolePlaying, I guess! You can play almost any shooter without much awareness of what is going on outside the running, jumping and trigger-pulling. But it is a must, if you want to enjoy an RPG, to have knowledge of the background of the world.

That is the way to \"force\" players to read and find out about the setting. And that will also give them basic tools for use in their first steps towards RolePlaying.

About the hiding stats. Let me share a bit of experience from my brief martial arts training. I never got far away enough for the sensei to decide it was time to pair us up and say \"Alright, these are the rules. We will simulate a fight.\"

So, how did I know I was more skilled or less skilled than the tall fellow standing next to me, or if I could stand a chance against that bony lass? Simple, I didn\'t. We never faced each other, there was no way for us to evaluate our strengths. Until the time for us to spar arrived, we could not say who was \"the best of the class\".

Instead of checking your stats constantly before evaluating if you can defeat that monster or not, if the statistics are hidden, you would have to try!

Feel you are getting your rump kicked? Pull off and run away from that dreadful killer bunny! Train a bit, build up your confidence, and try again to whoop his fluffy tail!

[Xordan]

Roleplaying means that u play a role..... running about killing random things is playing a role..not knowing about the setting could be part of that role...there are lots of people in the world that know jack all about history.... so technically, u\'r talking crap about that part of it....

Remember that this is a game.... which we want people to play.... hiding stats means that everyone will think \'who\'s crap idea was this?\' so people won\'t bother to play. U\'ve gotta appeal to the majority not the minority.  

There is no such thing as \'true pure roleplaying\', what your ideas are, are probably not what 3/4 of rpg\'ers think. It\'s all down to the player himself to decide what roleplaying is....

Ok, u can flame meh now.  

[Golbez]

As I said. RolePlaying games are not for everyone. As much as Action games are not for everyone, not all enjoy Puzzles, not everyone likes Point-and-click adventures.

Aiming for the majority? That is the hugest mistake a gaming company can make. Granted, the intended audience should be as wide as possible...BUT there is a limit.

We all know the concept of the \"Bard\" class in AD&D. \"A jack of all trades, but a master of none\". A bard is versatile, but does not excel at anything.

You can apply the same concept for games. Try to stretch the player base too much, and you do not have a quality game. You have a mediocre construction that can satisfy, just mildly, a great bunch of people. They will come in, have some fun, and leave.

Call me weird, but I would choose quality over quantity. A good RolePlaying game meant for those who want to RolePlay. Although it is commendable to intend to merge two or more genres into one game, such concludes more often than not in poor results. Am I the only one to see a lower standard in the number of \"good games\" as of late? I think it is a side-effect of that desire to please everyone.

It is often agreed that tending to one extreme or the other is unhealthy or unproductive. So why instead of aiming for \"the majority\" or \"the minority\", don\'t we try to please not only the minority, but also attract a few more people to the RolePlaying genre by offering the basic features, and promoting some interesting ideas?

Want to \"kill stuff and loot\"? There are many other so-called \"MMORPGs\" where you can enjoy that kind of fun.

It is not up to the person to decide what is \"RolePlaying\". As much as it is not up to you to decide what a computer is. RolePlaying is RolePlaying is RolePlaying. It is what it is.

And I ask you one thing, is \"background\" to you only the historical aspect of the world? I am afraid to tell you that you are wrong.

Culture, traditions, geography, society, economy, politics, entertainment, technology...All of that and much more compose the background, context and setting. Not just for a game, but for real life as well!

Tell me, a person who ignores all that, can play a role in society as we know it? Consider the example of \"Tarzan\". Can he play a role in society without even being aware of the existance of others like him? I think not...

Total ignorance makes you an outcast.

And call me \"refined\", \"delicate\", or \"sensitive\". But I would never classify an idea, a thought or a way of thinking as \"crap\". It is a disgraceful insult to use that word to describe what is truly most important in a person: his mind.

It is a matter of mutual respect, I don\'t call you names, I expect you to treat me the same.

Gee, I am so picky ^_^

- Your picky rambling-prone poster, Golbez

[Sunken]

So Golbez, you are trying to say that games like, NeverWinter Nights, Dungueon Siege, Breath of Fire, Front Mission, Zelda, Final Fantasy, aren\'t a RPG because thay all heave battle, and a real RPG don\'t heave battles, skills and levels, the real RPG are some kind of giant 3D chats . If planeshift became a giant 3D chat just because of you inspertinance, it will broke, no one wanna play something too boring, if you want to chat you don\'t need a graphic based chat, go in IRC and play YOUR kind of RPG... just chating. You want to make PlaneShift a non-battle-RPG it\'s suxs, imagine how many players spactatives you are throwing out of the window.
I understand your point, but you don\'t heave the right of change a game, only because you like these kind of non-battle-RPG... :]

(Sorry again about my english)

Edit: it seems all these games: NeverWinter Nights, Dungueon Siege, Breath of Fire, Front Mission, Zelda, Final Fantasy, are same as quake for him... he said \"if run around killing mosnters and everyone, it\'s same as quake\".
So patetic ??