RolePlaying in its purest form

[Axsyrus]

I think games like Dungeon Siege are just like Quake.. all you do is run around, kill monsters and level up(that\'s the only difference..). just because you level up doesn\'t mean it\'s a role playing game.. You have to PLAY a ROLE, this means you actually talk to other people instead of just ignoring them and only ask them when you have troubles clearing a quest. You talk to them because you like talking to them, it are your friends in the role you play.

[Draklar]

Originally posted by Xordan
Roleplaying means that u play a role..... running about killing random things is playing a role..not knowing about the setting could be part of that role...there are lots of people in the world that know jack all about history.... so technically, u\'r talking crap about that part of it....

how wrong can one get?
yes, like I said, it is possible to rolplay all that, BUT
when you play to powerlevel (as in you want to do it as a player), then when thy char will be powerleveling, it\'ll be just YOU in some other realms, it won\'t be roleplaying.
Not knowing about the setting... sure, but if you didn\'t read the setting as a player then you\'ll be just a guy that plays a game, not roleplayer.
For example, let\'s take a dumb kran that knows nothing about his surroundings... ummm... let\'s call him Kwartz
The kran doesn\'t know anything about setting, however when player knows a lot about the realm, then you may call that roleplaying.

Sunken: I don\'t remember Golbez saying there shouldn\'t be fighting and stuff :rolleyes:
and no, these games aren\'t real RPGs... the \"real\" RPG is the game when you use just stuff like dice, pencil, paper and mostly imagination. The ones you told are cRPGs, which don\'t realy have much to do with RP factor...

[Fanomatic2000]

Call me weird, but I would choose quality over quantity.

You\'re not the only one Golbez.  

Your posts for example are pure quality, yet you produce them very fast. You have a clear goal, and you express it in a very professional way.
Keep it up, you inspire many of us. :]

It\'s hard to define a RPG, but games like Zelda, BoF, Dungeon siege or Final fantasy cannot be placed under the term RPG. great games or not. They are pure linear adventure/puzzle/hack n\' slash cRPG games.

[Xordan]

Aiming for the majority? That is the hugest mistake a gaming company can make.

Try telling the people behind EQ that... they\'ve made millions.... And what about morrowind?? How much of a mistake did they make when they made that??

You must appeal to the majority, while keeping the minority happy as well.

it\'ll be just YOU in some other realms, it won\'t be roleplaying.

When u run around pretending to be important, and evil, it\'ll just be YOU as well. I don\'t powerlevel in real life (is it possible??), and I hope you don\'t run around pretending to be important and evil either....

Roleplaying has unlimited possibilities. Just because you don\'t like that, doesn\'t mean it isn\'t roleplaying to do half of them. As long as your doing something, for example, which yourself (in real life) wouldn\'t be doing, it can count as roleplaying. Running about pk\'ing (generally in games) means that you are roleplaying a mass murderer, like it or not.

May I point out:

Our Aims: To become the acknowledged centre of all magic in Yliakum.

Here we find the Arcane Order. They aim to be the strongest guild of mages in PS. Aka: Guild of powerleveling mages. Like it or not, that\'s what they are. They do other things as well, e.g. have a community, but to you, they shouldn\'t be allowed to have such an \'anti-roleplaying\' goal. (no offense to AO members.)

You have to PLAY a ROLE, this means you actually talk to other people instead of just ignoring them

I have one of those feelings that this is a good point. Yes, I have to agree, that somebody who runs about killing, without interacting with anybody in the game ever, isn\'t roleplaying, that just being sad.... Myself, and (going back to my previous example) the AO, do both. Powerlevel, and interacting with the game itself would count perfectly as roleplaying.

t\'s hard to define a RPG, but games like Zelda, BoF, Dungeon siege or Final fantasy cannot be placed under the term RPG.

]

I have to disagree here. I would call them, automated RPG\'s. They have a backround, storyline, and the most important, character interaction. I call them automated because you have no real power over the direction of the story line, but they still allow you to have some direction over what you do. Morrowind is a very good example of this.

I\'ve probably contradicted myself here, but as I wrote, my ideas, and opinions changed towards this subject. My longest post ever probably.  

[Draklar]

Originally posted by Xordan

it\'ll be just YOU in some other realms, it won\'t be roleplaying.

When u run around pretending to be important, and evil, it\'ll just be YOU as well. I don\'t powerlevel in real life (is it possible??), and I hope you don\'t run around pretending to be important and evil either....

...
by play to powerlevel, I mean play to powerlevel
is it that hard to understand?
and roleplaying is behaving like you wouldn\'t in real life, being someone different. At least that\'s the main point.
Running around and powerleveling just because you want to isn\'t roleplaying, it\'s just playing a game.
In BiosFear I\'m simply running around killing stuff... I might say I\'m roleplaying some guy that wants to kill monsters just to become stronger, but it\'s just like playing any other game... in RTS you lead an army, do you say yer roleplaying some general?

Originally posted by Xordan
I have to disagree here. I would call them, automated RPG\'s. They have a backround, storyline, and the most important, character interaction.

Unreal:
background: you are a prisoner or something
Storyline: you try to get away from the stinky place
Character Interaction: well bah
here we learn Unreal is RPG

[Xordan]

lol, character interaction Draklar....  I don\'t see any there...  

Originally posted by Dralkar  and roleplaying is behaving like you wouldn\'t in real life, being someone different. At least that\'s the main point. Running around and powerleveling just because you want to isn\'t roleplaying, it\'s just playing a game.

I think I said that sumwhere....

Originally posted by Xordan  
I have one of those feelings that this is a good point. Yes, I have to agree, that somebody who runs about killing, without interacting with anybody in the game ever, isn\'t roleplaying, that just being sad.... Myself, and (going back to my previous example) the AO, do both. Powerlevel, and interacting with the game itself would count perfectly as roleplaying.

[Draklar]

Originally posted by Xordan
lol, character interaction Draklar....  I don\'t see any there...  

you can perfectly interact with a gun

Powerlevel, and interacting with the game itself would count perfectly as roleplaying.

and how do you want to powerlevel when yer not interacting with the game? :rolleyes:
argh, that was perfectly nice thread, I\'ll just leave ye with thy believes alone

[Xordan]

1) *Sigh*  
2) Interacting as in interacting with the storyline, and basically, your future.  
3) And don\'t say u can either live or die as that ineteraction....

[Kiern]

Wow, this is like an alignment argument...don\'t take it to such extremes.

[Xordan]

lol, an on-topic flame war...

[Axsyrus]

Originally posted by Xordan  
I have one of those feelings that this is a good point. Yes, I have to agree, that somebody who runs about killing, without interacting with anybody in the game ever, isn\'t roleplaying, that just being sad.... Myself, and (going back to my previous example) the AO, do both. Powerlevel, and interacting with the game itself would count perfectly as roleplaying.

I think you\'re confused here, roleplaying means leveling up all the time without interacting with the game at all. this means you can not interact with the game and powerlevel at the same time...
and just because the AO aims to become the strongest magics guild in PS doesn\'t mean we are all powerlevelers, we hope this game will require getting more knowledge in magics then just killing monsters all the time.

[Winterheaven]

Nice Post, Golbez and many interesting answers. A topic, which will come up in every MMORPG some time. But who can really answer the question for _the_ playing style?

First let me introduce some phrases for the different styles of \"RPGs\", which i will then declare as short as i can. These are by no means the _correct_ words, only my personal classification. I want also to distinguish between single and multiplayer, because of the complete different playing style.

Single Player Styles

Action Adventure
This is the typical Zelda game. You use your items in the game environment, and these items are _real_ different. There are no sword and sword+1, but a grappling hook, a lantern, a bow with fire and ice arrows. The items are no decorating accessory, but used for the many, many riddles. There exists some conversation, but only for nothing. The central game play is based on the numerous riddles and on the hordes of fights against different monsters which needs different tactical work. The fights are done on the same screen like the other game play and in real-time. Other examples for this games are Metroid or System Shock. BTW, i like this style, these games made it to eat my spare time and Zelda will be my all time favourite (thx to miyamoto)

Roleplaying Game (japanese style)
Do you ever played one of the Final Fantasy or Dragon Warrior titles from square and enix on the old consoles. Incredible lovely music, diversified, astonished and tearfully story line and tactical group fights on an extra screen. These games did a nice job killing my sleep at night. The game play sets its focus on the simple town-equip-assignment-dungeon-town... circle, but perfectly hidden by the varied kind of quests, fights and items. BTW, i like this style, final fantasy II (the japanese part IV) is my all-time example for a story never topped by an other game!

Roleplaying Game (american & european style)
The Ultimas, Wizardries and Bard Tales of the world. (Take out Pagan and Ascension!). Board, Attack, Ready Weapon, Talk, Ztats... the functions and possibilities of the old ultimas were rich. Do you remember the chain of grain, flour, bread = food in U7? The conversions were deep and rich. The fighting runs in an (relative) automated way. The story was non linear. Do what you want. There was a bad boy, of course. But you can also play only for fun. Many side quests and good developed NPCs. BTW, i like this style, it was the first time i get an idea about what is possible on a computer in a virtual world.

Mixed Single and Multiplayer Styles

Roleplaying Action Game
Diablo and Dungeon Siege are in this categorie. Hunting for items, for levels, for skills, for xp. Killing all and everybody. No deep story, no big conversation options. From town to village (or better from smith to smith). Selling and buying/finding the best items to use. Leveling up is the important thing. BTW, i like this style, but i don\'t know, why . But, sitting in front of the monitor at midnight and thinking: Only this dungeon, then i will go to bed... but when the sun rises, it sees me sitting already in front of...

Multiplayer Styles

Massive Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game
Hm... i think, i must distinguish between three big parts of MMORPG - Ultima Online (the beginning), Everquest 2, Camelot, Horizons (the nowadays) and Neverwinter Nights (the - in my eyes - only real MMORPG _try_). The first one i never played. But in discussions you here always the same statement. The new MMORPGs are so nice looking... if only Ultima had this amazing graphics, i will never play an other game. And why? Well, UO was the first one, which gives the player also the oportunity to play as a merchant, as a beggar or any other _ROLE_ without(!) the main focus on the skills and attributes. The newer ones are already on their way to enhance their crafting system (which gives the player a base for true roleplay). But the problem of the newer ones are, that they also have to provide a way to be a hero... cause the players must pay 12,95... and many of the buyers want to get something therefore. But a consistent world can not live with only heros... and there comes Neverwinter Nights... Ok, i will go a bit deeper in this topic, because i worked on a NWN Server and i now the RP-Problem there rather good.

At first, i must remember Bioware: They tried it, they really tried it.. but they lost in the comercial mills. (That is my theory!) They tooked the D&D RP System, which is really not the best system out, but well known, widely accepted and since the 3rd version relative \"round\". And then they want to port the P&P style to a computer MMORPG... and this could not get right. P&P is at least a single campaign on an play evening with friends. All players are heros!!! That is the centre of P&P - adventuring with a hero group to resolve a quest. And NWN is in a wonderful suitable for this. It has its editor, which make you developing an \"evening campaign\" in a comfortable and nice manner. The script lets you implement nearly all you have ever dreamed. Work as a GM is so easy and really enjoyable. Everybody can setup an own server without much network knowledge. In simple words: many good tools for you. But at least... the problem is the HERO-concept. Short after the game was out, the people made their own server with 16, 32, later 64 and now up to 96 players. And - of course - they will all be heros. For a so called servervault, you must begin with level 1 (which can be advanced by the modul builder with skripts). And fast you are on the hunt for xp to build your advanced character and to not to be too weak against another player.

At least we made a local vault server (where player can go online with their single player campaign developed 20 level char) and we made an unbelievable experience... The players comes with their complete developed and high pushed chars. But now they can not focus on development and the hunt for experiance brings nothing. That was boring.. and so they begin to ROLEPLAY... they set limits in their guilds, they developed ig rules, we have something like an town coucil, we have thieves and town guard guilds, which make really good rp... cause all are on level 20 and there is no more engine fight necessary... the world lives from their characters... nice. Of course, we do have problems with PvP, with item pushers, with noobs, and so on... these are the drawbacks of a local vault server... but the GMs do their best job.

(I must add, that Bioware with their Add-Ons made a good job: They inserted Database-Access and now some little crafting - some needed items for true persistent worlds)

Back to the topic and to the conclusion:

P&P and the most MMORPG focus to make the players HEROS... and imo that makes it nearly impossible to play roles. You need real beggars, waiters, wash womans, not only NPCs. And if you have these things all together and do not have to look for your xp, your swimming skill, if there is no necessarity to adventure and hunt monsters, if you can live in your house or wander through the world only collecting the different flowers of the world... yes, i think, that would be nice.

======

And what is roleplay to me?

Some posters said: \"In every game you play (somehow) a role.\" No doubt, that is correct. But i do not think, that Golbez ever meant it this way. He pointed out, that playing a role can not have any fixed setting! And that is the thing, i like. You play a _free_ role. No written story, no min\'s and max\'s for your (imaginary) skills and talents, all is possible... just play it. Take part in the community, write the plot _while_ you are playing the game, and you will _get_ the results for it...

I will not miss my hero from dungeon siege, my link in his green skirt. I will not forget the search for the heart pieces and the run for the _best_ bow. But i will definitively not miss the experiances gotten with impressive role players some nights...

Last Word:

I have fun with all genres - if they are good packaged. And like every player i have my likes and dislikes. But the question was, is and will be: What kind of server will be PS? I do not know, if it is important, if PS will be an only ROLEPLAYING server or a HACK&SLAY server or a mix from both. I think, we will see it.. and hopefully the player get the choice to decide it...

br, Winterheaven.

[Kixie]

finally a quality post from a newbie. Thank god. lol great post lots of interesting points. good descriptions of each type of roleplaying game also. i dont think anyone should have any questions after this post right?

[Grakrim]

Ah, what a great thread.  I too think that the term RPG has been misapplied to too many genres; basically, these days, any game with stats is called a RPG.

We need to put the RP back into RPGs, we, the players, should organize and hold in-game RP sessions.  Most importantly, we need to make RP public and fun; I think we\'d likely have alot more people spontaniously join in if they were exposed to it (although not force-fed).  We can\'t ask the devs to implement RP; it begins with the players and ends with the players.  The devs can do all they can to support RP, but if player\'s don\'t participate, it will fail.

My P&P RP background is very limited (living in West Virginia does that to a person; I\'ve only participated in 3 campaigns total, plus a few that never went anywhere), but I have a rich, RP-Enforced MUD history.  I don\'t know about the rest of you, but the most difficultly I have with RP is establishing a good backstory, especially in settings which not a lot of material is already available.  I\'m always afraid I\'ll end up contradicting something, important or no, it disjoints the atmosphere.

For this reason, may I suggest a Planeshift RP Headquarters website?  Chock full of stories, history, and legends to assist and streamline roleplay.  It would be great if it was an official site, but it could easily be a fan-run site.

Personally, I\'ve come up with 5 or 6 story packages for my character, ranging from just backstory to complete story packages, including how I\'ll eventually retire the character.  Although I\'m weary to publically release anything until I\'m absolutly sure how my character will be played; I have the broad stroke, though.  I haven\'t done alot of roleplay in MB, as I prefer roleplaying on top of an established ruleset, and I believe CB will have enough for me to begin serious RP.

*Sigh* So much fluff, but I\'m sure there\'s a point to my post somewhere.

[Kixie]

maybe noone worships .hack//sign as much as i do but i think it has one of the best stories ever. It is cast in a mmorpg world online where technology has advanced so much its almost exactly life like in game. Well there are player controlled gaurds (i forget their name i have only seen 3 or 4 full episodes) that are really just a guild and every so often thier roleplaying steps too far and they take matters such as game development into their own hands and the devs have to step in and tell them to cease and desist. Basically this is a lesson in what too heavy of rping can do. So we really have to find a balance. and so what if its based off an anime? Its still a lesson we should learn