Author Topic: Fighting the weather every step of the way  (Read 1066 times)

Saphire

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Fighting the weather every step of the way
« on: January 29, 2004, 01:49:36 am »
[Super long so be sure you have time to read atleast some of it! Nor is this first paragraph a ticket for you to not read the entire idea. I will get very angry if I have to repeat myself.]

I\'ve always despised the fact that RPGs have had little to do with character vs enviroment in the gameplay.

I mean, when it\'s foggy yeah, it\'ll block my view; but my iron... my iron armor wont rust. I can sit in the fog and kill as many enemies as I want to, and spend days IRL (in real life) sitting there whacking enemies and my equipment just wont be effected by the weather. It makes me (ironically) absolutely annoyed that my iron armor doesn\'t rust or corrode away.

So, instead of just fighting monsters, players will have to fight their enviroment to some degree. The majority of it is simple, and very little of it\'s really complex. Anyways, on with the filling!

Basic Stuff - Often over-looked by designers
Infravision - Always a favourite of players to have in dark dungeons, it allows players to see the infrared spectrum of light; in plain english you see heat emitted from bodies of enemies and friends.

Now, Infravision REALLY helps in the dungeons, because the walls are cold and the majority of the creatures are warm blooded. However, in one too many RPGs i\'ve been able to see invisible and cold blooded enemies with infravision, when i really shouldn\'t have. Cold blooded enemies dont have any or much body heat of their own; thus they can\'t be seen with infravision very well.

Infravision also doesn\'t improve anything with seeing the landscape. If you\'re on tundra, the land should be pitch black to dark-dark purple. Same with deserts; the landscape isn\'t a boiling white or red. On that topic, infravision continues to funtion flawlessly in enviroments like deserts. A desert is endlessly warm, and any warm-blooded creature would be near invisible, as well as cold blooded creatures because they\'d be warm or very hot! However, cold climates and underwater would increase the power of infravision greatly, as the enemies are on a semi-solid background color... Though fog and being underwater could hamper infravision some (because of the cold air/water/vapour between you and the enemy)

Rusting - RPGs have always been semi-there for rusting and equipment failure, but not fully. If you walked through a water fall your equipment would stay just as sparkling and powerful. However, short-term water contact wouldn\'t really do much... it\'s the long-term on/off water contact that causes rust to form. If a weapon rusts, it loses strength and it\'s edge, though it CAN be a good way to poison something if a peice breaks off inside the body. The only way to stop rust is to stop it before it starts. Coating weapons in metals that resist or dont rust (steel for the former, aluminum and gold for the latter) will preserve the weapon and protect it from rust. Rusted weapons are damaged easilly because the majority of the oxidized iron/other metal is flaked material, as well because of the rusting their damage is reduced to nearly nothing, because it\'d break against even leather armor.
There\'d be different levels of rust:
Very Reflective (The best quality, only possible with waxing)
Reflective (Best possible without adding anything \"Special\")
Shiney (It still reflects light)
Blotched (You can\'t see yourself)
Covered (Severe, but a whipe will clear it and put it to Reflective)
Flaking (Still recoverable, but it\'ll cost you for replacement [metal name here])
Powder (Un-recoverable)

These could also be used to calculate the ability to reflect some attacks on armor and weapons... Very reflective to Shiney would be used, though; Anything below those and the item wouldn\'t reflect didly squat. Losing a weapon to rust is bad, but rusted armor is even worse; it\'s slow and difficult to put on, and once on it isn\'t as mobile or strong. A real problem if you let it develop, BUT it IS easy to stop and repair. (Just be sure you catch it in time.) Corrosion-like attacks can be put under rusting for effects. Also know that rust often leads to more rust, so it will soon gather strength in destroying your equipment if you dont smack it down.

Complex or difficult to implement - Fighting the terrain and it\'s effects.
Snow - Crunch, crunch, through the snow you go. But this is more then emiting a sound when you move. There would certainly have to be different depts of snow, and with depths, there will be penalties to speed, but also bonuses for steath; for the aptly prepared. :D A suit or dress of white will make you blend in in a snow storm, as well, some specialized shoes and light armor will increase your speed on this tricky terrain. As well, the cold takes it\'s toll on the unprepared. It will take more time to do difficult or exausting tasks, like jumping and putting on and running in heavy armor. However, that is not to say that heavy armor is not at a disadvantage!

Metal armor WILL slow you down and make you colder, however, if the armor is PADDED and/or if you are wearing some extra clothes you will be able to stay warm; and what does warm, metal do? It melts snow. 8) So, if you can have warm or even hot metal armor in a snow storm, you will be able to move at a faster walking speed then you normally could. Some potions will freeze, too.

Deserts - Metal armor isn\'t exactly a good idea here, either, and not wearing any protection will make you boil and become ill due to too much sun exposure. Light, and reflective clothing will help deflect heat and stop you from overheating yourself. Again, if you can color youself or your equipment to the color of the desert you will gain a stealth advantage. You wont suffer much of a speed penalty when walking through the desert, but the stress of intense actions will cause you to lose HP. In this stressed state, casting spells is also difficult. Water and food are also difficult to find for those who dont know where to look for it. The roving sands can also swallow equipment and dungeon entrances... or reveal them. :) Potions can evaporate and become concentrated if they\'re not seal properly, as well.

Forests - Lots of cover. However, forests are easy to walk through, and shouldn\'t be that difficult to move through. Very heavy armor might be another story when you reach a slope, however. (tumbling tin men being slaughtered by fast-moving archers comes to mind :rolleyes: ) You can also find lots of food and water, and can actually increase the power of some magical spells. There are lots of creatures, but they arn\'t that diverse.

Jungles - More covers then forests, and thus this causes troubles in movement. There are tons of creatures, very diverse in their abilities. There are also several natural traps in a jungle like quicksand. However, some things like quicksand can be escaped if you know what to do (quicksand is nothing more then sand particles suspended in water. Yes, you can SWIM in quicksand and you dont get sucked down.) There\'s mud, which if you stand in for too long you\'ll sink down abit and take awhile to get moving in a direction. Vines provide a easy way to get tangled, as well giant spiders webs and hang in the most obscure and lethal of places. Lots of ways to get poisoned, as well... ;(

Swamps - Moving in this place is a nightmare. I pitty tha foo who wears heavy armor. However, you might want to wish you had heavy armor when you encounter some of the swamp\'s monsters. There\'s lots of mud in this place, as well. Sometimes there can be a feild of pure green grass; too bad there\'s water just under the surface. Lots of plant life disguise such things like lakes... and dungeon entrances. A machetty or a heavy sword is needed to cut through all the plants.

Dungeon - Your general baddies, except it\'s totally pitch black the deeper you go. Not much else to say.

Mines - Your general mining enviroment. Lots of things to drop and kill you instantly or atleast maim you long enough for a spider or orc to bite your head off. ;( There\'s often lots of water pools and mud.

Deep interior of the earth; here there be lava - Metal is weakened if it\'s melting point is lower then the highest temperature. Sometimes the metal will actually become maleable enough to re-shape it or melt in your hand/backpack if you go too deep. Potions evaporate if they arn\'t capped. Scrolls and other paper items become severly brittle. Organic armor like leather simply cumbles. Generally not a pleasant place to be. However, there are equipments that are purchasable or enchantments that can be placed on the items to stop them from suffering these ill effects.

The general stuff - That gives it all flava
Just common sense rules over this. Metal can melt or become weaker in hot enviroments. If it\'s cold enough potions will freeze. A wet scrolls\' ink can become blurry. Books can become un-bound if it\'s humid enough and glue was used. Metal melts ice. Fire burns paper. Lava > all.

====
Basic stuff like this and counters to their effects can greatly increase the fun (but sometimes frustration) of situations. Traveling in a well ballanced party would become needed for some adventures. The well prepared but weak could overcome the unprepared but mighty. Monsters would be adept at their enviroment, which means a far larger volume of enemies and enemy species.

Generally, Planeshift would become more of a RPG. Players would be asked for their skills more often, and usually be invited into a party when they otherwise might not be. Nothing feels more grand then slashing through a jungle, a living jungle, where nearly anything can happen to anybody in your party or a monster. More struggle, but more reward for success. And if you fail... Well, you can always respawn. :P And finally - more strategy.

If you can change the enviroment to your advantage, you will almost certainly win. Casting a ice bolt onto some water, freezing it, jumping on, having a monster follow you, and then you casting a blaze of fire to melt the ice and drown the beast. If archers are annoying you, just cast some fire on some nearby bush to burn them out. If it\'s too hot, cast a spell that will cool you down. If you dont want to walk through the snow, melt it. :P If somethings hitting you from the darkness, throw a lit torch at it! :D

More player-enviroment interaction is a good thing.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2004, 01:50:07 am by Saphire »
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Davis

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« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2004, 02:09:14 am »
Quote
Originally posted by Saphire
Though fog and being underwater could hamper infravision some (because of the cold air/water/vapour between you and the enemy)

Not really. Infrared is light given off by warm objects, and the heat of material between you and the object doesn\'t really make a differance.

rumblebelly

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« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2004, 02:10:16 am »
well i read the whole thing and i pretty much like what you said except the infravision even cold blooded creature\'s give off a small amount of heat and it is enough for infravision to work only on small creature\'s does it not work well but otherwise i like the idea\'s of the dif type\'s of weather armor interaction and that\'s my two cent\'s  :D
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Kixie

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« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2004, 02:10:24 am »
well very nice post. lots of scripting im afraid. the biggest reason that stuff like that isnt implemented is not because devs are lazy but because some comps cant handle that much data. it would be nice. i do like the infravision post tho. but i dissagree sadly. if it is a cold blooded animal and you cant see it because it is somehow the exact temp of everything around it, which is unlikely everything like walls have different levels of heat absorption, then the animal would not be very active. it would be cold and weaker. so not much of an opponent if its cold. thats why i laugh at lizard races.

now on weapon errosion. good idea. but it shouldnt happen TOO often. thats way to much money and time to take care of it. though if it was purely visual for a long time i wouldnt have a problem with it.

i do like your ideas of mines having things to fall on you. interaction with the enviorment would be cool. but hopefully something could be scripted when running in a forest where u squeeze through stuff. it would be done if you just stoped at 2  trees and the camera was all jigly when u moved through them slowely.

now again on the topic of weapon rusting and corroding i think that lava should melt a weapon but on different scales depending on its consistancy and material.

well thats all i feel like commenting on. nice rant hope to see more.

SnowWolf

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Good Stuff
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2004, 03:20:02 am »
Awesome Thread.

I was thinking about posting on the cold blooded creatures myself - good call. Oh, fog and snow DOES affect infarred rays IRL and deserts usually become very cold at night so that\'s kind of inaccurate too. (Refering to criticisms)

The scripting of this idea seems like a real problem but I bet if we discuss it we can figure something that the devs will at least consider before they call us dreamers.

*Rallies RPers from all over the PS community*

Different speeds for different terrains is really easy to do, you just associate a certain handicap directly with the texture set being used. (They even use this in tile based games!)

I\'d say the best way of attacking this would be to create stats for items (as few of them as possible, maybe ones that already exist) - it would at least be a start.

The ones I can think of - rusting, ink bleeding, cloth becoming moldy / eaten away by critters etc. acid in books, potions freezing/evaporating. This goes on forever and is obviously too big of a list. Need to get it whittled down.

Hmmmm

Critical Temperatures could either be two numbers or maybe effectiveness as a function of temperature (look at the graph of -x^2 + C for an idea of how this would work)

health points maybe..... ?

Ehhh or maybe handle it like you handle status effects? (poison, etc)

Back to the drawing board - someone else take it from here!


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SnowWolf

Davis

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« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2004, 03:26:25 am »
Quote
Originally posted by SnowWolf
I was thinking about posting on the cold blooded creatures myself - good call. Oh, fog and snow DOES affect infarred rays IRL

Wait... by lowering the temperature giving off the rays or by interfering with the rays themselves?

Kixie

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« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2004, 03:28:42 am »
Quote
Originally posted by SnowWolf
Different speeds for different terrains is really easy to do, you just associate a certain handicap directly with the texture set being used. (They even use this in tile based games!)


also different animations. you cant drag your feet in a bog or a desert or a forest with lots of vegitation...

SnowWolf

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« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2004, 04:18:05 am »
Davis: Sorry I didn\'t specify - it interferes with the rays (say an infrared ray hits a snowflake - the heat is absorbed into the snowflake in most cases)

Whemyfield: Good point, I figured they\'d just use the same animation but slow the rate at which you move (the cheap way)


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SnowWolf

Kixie

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« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2004, 04:40:48 am »
also like in morrowind i hope we will put our hands above our eyes in a sand storm and snow storm to protect our eyes. if a snow storm starts we should pull out a coat if we have one in our inventory automatically. if we dont have one or choose not to wear one we should suffer fatigue stuff. Stuff= slow deduction or something..

Saphire

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« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2004, 05:19:24 am »
yes, deserts getting very cold at night was something i left out accidentally...
*cough*

The most critical list of things that i can think of associated with a item can be (no specific order):

- Evaporating
- Melting
- Rusting
- Corroding
- Inked
- Organic (IE: Leather, paper, etc)

This covers lots of catagories: Potions, Books, Scrolls, Armor, Weapons, and afew others.

Then a calculation can be called up to determine from the item\'s stats just how vulnerable it is to rust... or it could be a set value for each item.
*scratches head*

Ack. That\'s gonna be alot for the server to handle. Maybe just have <8-6 stats for each item... What the item is made out of would have to be used in all cases, though (since what it\'s made out of determines the effect weather will have on it)
Precious and beutiful, it is happy. The only time when it is not is when it is in a shape of a tear.

Kixie

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« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2004, 05:26:50 am »
some of it would be. but there are some ways to get around server loading for some of your ideas. maybe some things could just have a timer on them set to erode after a certain time (like ice in a desert) instead of communicating with the server all the time.

Davis

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« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2004, 07:11:37 am »
Dude, get the old sig back.

davo

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« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2004, 12:22:57 pm »
Alrighty

i reckon snow and ice and wind (invisible) and rain and stuff would be cool aye. it would greetly enhance the visualls and atmosphere.

but all the rusting and wind touching ya sword and rain on your armour is too much to programe, care for, lag for and wouldent make much of a difference for what its worth.

but yes i would love to see stuff like that in a game like planeshift  but mainly for the visual side of it, really cool idea saphire.

especially deep snow for some reason :P
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lynx_lupo

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« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2004, 12:41:54 pm »
Sounds cool, but I\'m ot sure if it isn\'t over the fantasy edge. I don\'t want another RL!
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Kixie

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« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2004, 05:08:34 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Davis
Dude, get the old sig back.


the hell? way OT there davis :P... but anyways i love this siggy... DDR!!!!