Author Topic: Building towns & Guild functions  (Read 1551 times)

Cyrandir

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Building towns & Guild functions
« on: February 12, 2004, 05:44:24 am »
The idea has been suggested in other places that towns could be developed, either from abandoned ruins or from scratch.  This seems to be a good idea and could be integrated into the Guild system and economy of PS.  If RPd correctly, towns could be developed into guild controlled towns and districts, giving a wide variety of options to the guild.

Economics:  With the Guild controlling prices and taxes in the town, it would be able to generate a steady group income.  Controlling Guild members and Guild friends would pay wholesale prices.  Neutral characters would pay the elevated and profitable prices within a town.  Guild enemies would be unable to procure goods or services within the town, except for illicit sources.

Spawning:  Guild control of a town would allow Guild members, Guild friends, and neutral characters a place to spawn after death.  Guild enemies would be unable to spawn in the hostile environment and would have to walk or fly if they wanted to return to the town or area.

Inter-city politics:  Fortifying the town/keep in question would be a great addition, along with the potential for guild wars for controls of towns and town/keep assaults and seiges. Inter-Guild politcs would come much more to the front as factions vied for allies against common enemies.  This would translate into city alliances and possibly even primitive city-states.  Open towns could be taken over with little effort, perhaps with the building of a Guild or City hall, which would become the focus of takeover attempts.

Intra-city politics:  As the controlling Guild, you would be responsible to everyone for the maintinance of the town.  Guards, fortifications, repairs and even the wages for trades and NPCs would become the responsibility of the Guild council, effecitvely the ruling body of the town.  Payments for Guards, fortifications, repairs, city employee wages, etc, would come from the common fund of the Guild, supported by the taxes on commerce in the town.  Periodic repairs to public buildings, roads, etc would provide a random drain to resources.

RP opportunities:  Guild control of a town would bring RP situations such as city councillors and mayors, and the prestige that goes along with these positions.  It would would also bring assasins and spys more to a useful function rather than an RP affectation, as they would be very useful in attempted Guild takeovers of a particular town.  



Example: Guild X controls the town of Waterdeep. Waterdeep is just outside a dungeon and produces a large amount of income for Guild X from the taxes on merchant transactions and healing services from people going both into and out of the dungeon.  Guild Y wants to control the town because of the profit margin and because it is close to another town that Guild Y controlls.  Guild Y sends a spy into the city who\'s mission it is to scout out the defences and, if possible, assasinate ranking officials. On entering the town, the spy would have a percentage chance based on skill to impersonate a specific person in Guild X (of the same race and gender) each time they encounter someone. The spy would be expected to discover approximately how many guards are in the city, and how many Guild X members are present.  If the spy succeeds in assassinating an individual (say the leader of the Guild), the assasinated person cannot spawn in the town under siege, but must walk to backup his guildmates, the same holding true for any memebers of Guilds X or Y who die in the assault. Guild X has the option to hire more guards whenever they want, until they run out of money.  The guards would be very loyal, but would have a chance to flee combat or give up as more and more members of Guild X die in the assault (and only as they die, meaning the guards would be perfectly loyal when there are no Guild members present, and the town is vulnerable).  Control is maintained by Guild X until Y has occupied it for some amout of time, say 1 hr RT. (Occupied meaning holding a particular building in the town or the complete abscence of any memebers of Guild X)

Since no Guild can have a major presence online at all times, towns should change hands fairly frequently, given a determined assault.  The number of guards (all NPC\'s of a varying level ability, perhaps based on payment amounts) that a Guild might hire would be based on the importance the Guild places on the income or the spawn points.  The guards would all be NPC\'s of a varying level ability, perhaps based on payment amounts and randomly on the availible NPC mercenaries in the area (thereby adding another level of randomness to ensure frequent turnovers) Their going rate should be fairly high and on a per-day or per-week rate to limit the number of defenders that a Guild could hire at a time (also helping with ensuring takeovers).  Major towns should never come under the influence of a single guild, only the satelite towns and villages.

I\'ve really been working on this idea over the last day or two, and think it poses a lot of great opportunities.  I know it\'s a big idea, but it would really give a lot of meaning to non-hack-and-slash Guild activity.  I welcome suggestions and comments, as well as questions.  I hope the devs take time to read this one.

_____

Edit to address questions brought forth
« Last Edit: February 12, 2004, 08:26:01 am by Cyrandir »


\"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.\"    - Galileo Galilei

Quwaar

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« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2004, 07:52:59 am »
great idea, but isnt it very hard to make a good working city? And the guild has to provide the guards and everything, so the guild needs to be really big and they all need to be online for a long time, if you have a shift of guard.

Its a good idea and one Id like to see, but it is veryt hard go get
Smile... Tomorrow will be worse

sashok

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« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2004, 08:05:44 am »
well all this would be very cool, but it brings out a thought about how big the guild has to be in order to own a city or have a lot of influence in a city.  the guild would have to be active, prove that it can take the task and have about 200 members.  It\'s all possible though.

Cyrandir

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« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2004, 08:13:22 am »
I\'m sorry I guess I didn\'t clarify that the guards could be NPCs, Warriors of certian skill level only for defence and only availible to towns for defense.  That would limit the number of Guild members necessary at any given time.  The price could be set high for the guards in order to limit their numbers and allow for the possibility of takeover.  I\'ll edit the original post to that effect


\"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.\"    - Galileo Galilei

Xandria

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« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2004, 09:13:14 am »
From what I remember about the original thread on the topic, was that towns would likely not be completely guild-owned.  It would be something like, a guild starts a small encampment someplace (most likely in an area that is beneficial to the guild; near a hunting grounds, quarry, forest, etc.) and sets up some buildings to store goods, provide housing, and the like.  Now, someone in the guild would likely be in charge of allocating the available land for building, and could hold everything for the guild only.

However, lets say it was a mining guild, and they set up this encampment near an iron mine.  A travelling smith might come along and work out a deal to set up a smithy in their little town.  He would provide additional revenue to the guild (buying raw materials) as well as a local supply of refined resources (tools, equipement, etc.) and a tax placed upon his business by the guild.  The smith likes the arrangement because he has not very far to go to a supply or resources, and saves money from buying from merchants.

Over time, more and more people would pass by the town and begin adding to the town to make it grow.  Since player housing will likely be available, people might like the option of buying land in a small town, since it will likely be cheaper than buying something near a large city.  There may also be an option for a random NPC to come around and offer to build on the guild land.

Or something like that... :P

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Cyrandir

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« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2004, 09:26:32 am »
Exactly the way to start a town.  My ideas tend toward further down the road after the town is established and others want control of said town.


\"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.\"    - Galileo Galilei

Cyrandir

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« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2004, 12:00:30 pm »
come on guys, give me some feedback


\"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.\"    - Galileo Galilei

Deddarus

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« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2004, 06:17:31 pm »
i like.. but i reckon there should be some \'government\' building requirements to classify as town:

Town hall (this would provide a meeting place, town capture point and would provide the town control functions)

Treasury (this would hold the towns tax revenue, will be heavily fortified but can be raided)

Temple (this would be to the towns chosen god - dunno how the god system works but maybe the coice of temple may effect certain aspects of city life)

additional town buildings (that are optional)

Library
Palace (ornate guild house basically)
Graveyard (reurrection point)
Colloseum
Amphipheatre
courthouse
jail (can be broken out of with help from outside)
Warehouse (communal store of goods)
Granary (communal store of food)
armoury (communal store of weapons/armour)

Available town defenses

City wall
guard tower
stationary seige weapons (ie trebuchets etc)
Moat
Beacon (high visability, calls for aid from friendly town)

available town ameneties

Street lighting
well

Dalec

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« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2004, 03:01:49 am »
All these idea\'s sound great to me. However, I think that town\'s should not be controlled directly by guild\'s. For example, a nation, or mass of people should start a town, with a mayor and people paying taxes that go mostly back to the community (paying guards, expanding, etc.)

Guilds could set up buildings within the town, and maybe even grow to have great political power in the town, but not through direct political control, maybe through paying off the mayor or allying with him. That would allow for multiple guild\'s to compete for power in a town and make guild wars within cities, like in BG2.

Of course, the mayor would not be able to be in a guild, or at least something would have to be worked out where they couldn\'t just do everything to benefit their guild. A lot to ask, but this thread is asking a lot anyway and I doubt most of it will be able to be included. My thoughts however

Phinehas

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« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2004, 10:24:49 am »
Ok, Cyrandir, I see a coupla potential problems with your system, although, all in all, it\'s sweet.

1. It\'d be a doozy for the devs. :D
2. It\'d take a lot of the fun out of being in a guild. We all just became political powers. I don\'t know about you, but I play computer games to escape from real life, I\'m not sure I\'d want that much responsibility as a guild leader. This system means that more or less, the guilds are constantly going to be at war, in fact we\'re no longer guilds, but our own political states. This is like the feudal system, and that didn\'t turn out too well.
3. The political system has already been set up, and it doesn\'t include guilds.

That\'s why, as totally cool as your idea is, I think I prefer Dalec\'s. It\'s simpler and is more of a \"guild\" idea than a \"faction\" idea.

Don\'t get me wrong man, it\'s still a sweet idea, but maybe not for PS?

P.S. What\'s up with those friends of yours? I\'m still waiting for an answer.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2004, 10:29:23 am by Phinehas »

DeshNovar

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« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2004, 07:18:30 am »
Guilds shouldn\'t control the town. Their a guild not a political party. However they should have a section of the city. Say every time a Guild pops up they get a piece of land to build on. The only problem is that with more guilds comes less land. I think people should just stick with a Guild Hall they can customize, although on the political aspect there should be elections, for single players for positions. We the players vote on who we\'d like in charge.

Shariom

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« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2004, 01:09:19 pm »
OK, I\'m resurrecting this thread I guess.... searched and thought this one was most appropriate to what I\'m proposing. This is going to be fairly long though, so bear with me.


OK, to start with, I don\'t have much experience of online RPG\'s... I\'ve played beta for a couple, which were rather disappointing, mainly because you spent a lot of time simply leveling up etc. It seems like PlaneShift is headed in a different direction to this though, which is good. What I have here are descriptions of how I think a few different systems of gaining status and prestige might work. I have no idea how possible these are in terms of programming, server processing power and so on.... but here goes.

First, several different paths unestablished characters could take to gaining status and prestige.


Adventuerer / Monster Hunter - going out in groups with particular skills to take down a couple of monsters which have been plaging a town, using a combination of their abilities - support mages, offensive mages, warriors and so on working together for a share in the loot, which would be the treasure the monster has hoarded, or the monster itself! Think of the alchemy system from Morrowind, where you can pick the herbs from beside the road, cut off a dead monsters horn or skin it, and so on. With merchants/alchemists which I\'ll mention below, pieces of a variety of monsters would be in demand, and warriors could earn money, increase in status etc just by killing them.

Merchant (Trader) - travelling from town to town, paying a small fee for hire of a horse and cart (or buying one, once you\'ve made some money), and buying up goods which are cheap in one town to another where they are in demand and making a profit. Buying up all available supply of one item, then pushing up the price and selling it all back dear. Such merchants could eventually set up shop in the middle of highways between cities and sell potions and so on to travellers, supply and demand etc.

Merchant (Crafter) - a completely different type of merchant, a character with good item making skills (or potion making for alchemists). These characters would set up stalls, and by offering bounties for ingredients they need (herbs, animal horns, iron, coal etc), buy them fairly inexpensively from warriors, miners etc, and make them into a more valuable potion, which they can then sell and make money.

Mercenary / Thug - not everyone is going to play nice and by-the-law in the game of course, and so there is going to be a demand for characters willing to risk fines and imprisonment to threaten, rob (at swordpoint as opposed to a thief) stores, exact revenge on another mercenary who has recenty irritated someone and so on.

Thief / Spy - if the game has a working economy, somoene who can spy on some of the richer merchants and tell their competitors what they are going to change their prices to undersell them (this is a bit hard to work out, since there is no real way to spy on a PC unless they say something to the NPC which runs their shop while they are offline, so I figure you make players set what their prices are going to be the next day, which the thief can then (with appropriate luck and skill) discover and inform the persons competitior). Also if the game has a political guild system (where guilds control cities, siege each other for control of cities and so on), they should be communicating through in-game forums, which the thieves can intercept part of a post etc, and report back to the rival guild which employs them.

Bounty Hunter - Kind of like a mercenary / thug, only this character works from the games legal system (which lists which characters have broken the law), and allows the bounty hunter to attack them with out being put down as a lawbreaker themself. Perhaps any character with a bounty hunters license would see the names of people who have broken the law recently in a differnt colour, so they don\'t actually have to look at the list at the police station, write it down on paper and frantically check through it each time they see a character.

When creating a character you would have to allocate points among a number of skills which would then determine how they can advance in the world (eg sword and other fighter appropriate skills, mage skills, traders license, alchemy etc, extra money [not really a skill but something merchants could put points into so they do not have to spend time as a fighter earning the cash to make a business venture]). You would only have enough points to fill a couple of skills, so each caracter has a certain place in society, and people will rely on each other - so an alchemist can make potions but he is not a fighter, so he cant kill monsters to get ingredients for his poitions, and will have to pay money to warriors who have collected the said items.

Say you are allocated 6 points to start with and need to put them into these skills (note skill(3) means you have to spend 3 points to get one level in skill). Note though that these AREN\'T all skills.... some are items your character will start with which would otherwise be very expensive, and it would take a long while for you to obtain otherwise.

Fighting Skill/s (3)
Bounty Hunter License (3)
Employment with thieves Guild (3)
Merchant License (4)
Alchemy (4)
Mage (4)
Extra Money (2) (maybe this should be stock coupons or something, so the character can get a starting load of merchandice, and so people can\'t exploit this feature as a way of getting extra money for other characters)
Wagon (1)
Premesis (2)

This is just a rough outline of course.... the actual list would take a fair while to come up with, a lot of balancing and so on.


If its possible... it would be good if the crafting system did NOT follow set recipies, because then anyone who looks them up on a web site would just be able to use them. Instead they should be - to a degree - random for each character that uses them, with some characters having to use more or less of an ingredient than another and so on, to make higher quality items. Therefore crafters who experiment with different quantities and so on will make better quality items, which they can sell for more, and the characters who make the best items would become well known, and sought after to make special items (say a character fulfills a quest and recieves a special ore that can make a better weapon.... they would only take it to the character who makes the very best items.

I\'m going to finish here for the moment.... thats the rough sum of my idea... feel free to comment, suggest changes etc.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2004, 07:58:38 am by Shariom »

Toadhead

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« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2004, 04:49:58 pm »
A place were crazy people would be locked in would be cool to!

These people can do some stupid workhere and when they have done enough they will come out! :)

Xalthar

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« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2004, 04:54:05 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Toadhead
A place were crazy people would be locked in would be cool to!

These people can do some stupid workhere and when they have done enough they will come out! :)


A prison? =P

Tarachnul

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« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2005, 11:41:35 am »
the bounty would have to be kindof like a GM tho like if it gets enough advisor points it gets the option to\"capture\" and \"drag\" the lawbreaker to nearest GM for money
Uuma quena en\'mani lle ume, ri\'mani lle umaya; uma ta ar\'lava ta quena ten\'irste\'  
(Speak not of what you have done, or what you are going to do; do it, and let it speak for itself)