No More Numbers.

[Axsyrus]

Yes, ofcourse there will be numbers, computers only work with numbers, no way to calculate anything without them

[Kuiper7986]

it doesn\'t ruin it, what\'s wrong with knowing how much MP or HP people have? Maybe its telepathic abilities that are given from Talad to the people of Yliakum to know how much HP or MP each other have.

[dfryer]

To be blunt, I think that\'s such a lame justification that you\'d be better off with no justification at all.

Whemy: It\'s possible that the client is never made aware of the numbers - translations of (internal) representations of numerical stats to text could be done server side with little difficulty.

I would like to see an RPG that isn\'t so stats-centric.  Statistics have been a big part of RPGs since D&D, but that was because humans had to do all the tracking.  Now we have computers to do that, so I think it might be a refreshing change to hide the statistics.

In addition, your perception of other peoples abilities could be based on both yours and their statistics, e.g. your perception and their charisma, so that a perceptive person would see that mr_big_guy is actually kinda feeble, but a less perceptive person would see in their description that they are \"Very Strong\" or something.

[Axsyrus]

since no-one seems to have read the thread I\'ve tried to post(it was broken.. fixed it now), I\'ll post it again.
http://www.planeshift3d.com/wbboard/thread.php?threadid=76&boardid=11

This thread covers the descriptive skill system, however this is NOT what I\'m talking about, I don\'t want any numbers or any other up to date thing at all. If you want to know your stats, you\'d have to do something first(a test or whatever).

I hope this clears things up a bit more, and if anyone\'s interested in the game they talk about in that thread, go here: http://genesis.cs.chalmers.se/

EDIT: the stats I\'m talking about aren\'t HP/MP/Fatigue but skills, sorry if I confused someone

[Boldstorm]

I like the idea of a number-less system. I used to play a role playing game with a few friends that there were pretty much no numbers for. The only thing we used numbers for were the original stats which set up where your character could basically cap out at but besides that numbers were out. Skills were based on a learning system that was pretty basic but broke down to something like you were proficcient at a simple level if you trained at it for a week, if you had time to train again for say 2 weeks you were then proficent at a standard level, then finally if you could train for 3 weeks you were at an advanced level. For every level you had to have the previous level. Everything you then did was based of your skill level which was simple, standard or advanced not that you were skill level 27 or whatever. There were many more things involved with it but this was the basic concept that it broke down to. I much prefered this system since we never had to worry about someone running around yelling I have a strength of 25 i can kick your ass, then you yelling back no I have a dexterity of 32 so you can\'t even catch me.
 Besides skills there were 12 diffrent levels of stats so it went from like puny to uber etc.

[dfryer]

If you want to know your stats, you\'d have to do something first(a test or whatever).

I still think there\'s a place for vague indicators, at least of some things.  Often you can tell whether a person is strong or not just by looking at them.  Less concrete attributes like intelligence are harder to percieve, but as a person I should have a guess as to how intelligent I am (although I suppose your argument is that that guess comes from past experience i.e. tests of intelligence)
I just think that it\'s helpful, as a player, to have some indication of the abilities of your character on a relative scale.

[Axsyrus]

yes, maybe this could even be done with the looks of your character ?

As your character gets stronger, it will also be wider and more muscular etc. and as the new skeleton system already does shrinking etc. maybe this could be possible later too?

PS. these aren\'t wishes for any time soon, although it would be nice to have something like this implemented in a nearby release

[Dalec]

Hmm...It seems to me that if you have a weak/medium/strong stats measure, you are basically dealing with numbers anyway. They increase as your skill increases, so what is the difference? Also, how would you know your exact requirement to use a weapon? Just from vague words like, need to be strong? Doesn\'t sound like a good idea imo :/

Also, numbers are easier to deal with for people with lag. If you can see the number of hitpoints you have and how much dmg you are taking, you have a better idea of when to run. If it is just a bar, you have to hope for the best, and not really know if you are lagging or not.

Finally, how would you display special items, such as a Sword +1? Would you just call it, Sword with slightly more power?

Numbers are easy. Thats why Human\'s invtented them

[Xandria]

Originally posted by dfryer:
I would like to see an RPG that isn\'t so stats-centric. Statistics have been a big part of RPGs since D&D, but that was because humans had to do all the tracking. Now we have computers to do that, so I think it might be a refreshing change to hide the statistics.

I think this is a great quote to sum up what we (as in those all for this idea) would like to see.

I really, REALLY think we could encourage RP by taking numbers out of the game.  This is because people stop focusing on their skills/attributes, and work on *playing the game*.  In most MMORPG\'s I\'ve played, it\'s a day-to-day struggle to gain 5 more strength to gain that new sword, or 10 more mining skill to start mining some rare ore, etc.  If you take the numbers away from the users, they will find something better to, most likely either start RP\'ing or go play something else.

So of course there\'s the next big question: \"How do we implement this?\"  So far there\'s been a suggestion of using text descriptors to replace the numbers.  Although I think it would be quite fascinating to see if we could do away with any sort of skills display whatsoever, it probably won\'t be possible.  Or someone else might come up with another solution.

And another question: \"So how do I know when I can equip a weapon?  Just a message that says \'you cannot yet equip this weapon?\'\"  Here\'s a better idea (I have this posted somewhere else, but it\'s way too buried to find it and way too late in the evening to look for it ):

No requirements on weapons/armor.

*Xandria waits for the shocked faces of everyone reading this*

Okay here\'s how it works:  You create a new character which comes pre-equipped with a ratbashinstick, and start whacking away at the little vermin.  You eventually come across this nice big iron broad sword.  You think \"cool, mucho-damage!\"  So you equip the said weapon and proceed to kill armadillos (I dunno, the best I could come up with ).  Your character starts to make his attack, except his very low strength level only allows him to swing the giant sword about once every 10 seconds, and his even lower dexterity doesn\'t allow him to have any accuracy whatsoever.  So while any character can equip a weapon (as you could in real life), that doesn\'t mean you\'ll be able to do a single point of damage.  And it won\'t be a case of being at the shop and going \"hey I\'ll trade in my 50-60 damage sword for this 80-90 damage axe\" because the axe uses an entirely different attribute set than the sword, plus, your character has probably been getting experienced using swords and will have to start learning axes from square one.

Okay, I\'d better stop before this gets way too long...

[Phinehas]

From what I can see here is most of these numberless systems would work much better with an rt combat system, turn-based is rigid, and there\'s not much option for changing it. Personally, I think Xandria\'s ideas plus one of the combat systems set forth in the \"Weapons and attacking - BIGGIE\" thread, would make for the sweetest mmorpg ever created.

[Axsyrus]

Originally posted by Dalec
Hmm...It seems to me that if you have a weak/medium/strong stats measure, you are basically dealing with numbers anyway. They increase as your skill increases, so what is the difference? Also, how would you know your exact requirement to use a weapon? Just from vague words like, need to be strong? Doesn\'t sound like a good idea imo :/

Also, numbers are easier to deal with for people with lag. If you can see the number of hitpoints you have and how much dmg you are taking, you have a better idea of when to run. If it is just a bar, you have to hope for the best, and not really know if you are lagging or not.

Finally, how would you display special items, such as a Sword +1? Would you just call it, Sword with slightly more power?

Numbers are easy. Thats why Human\'s invtented them

for the [insert random number here]\'th time, MY SYSTEM IS NOT A DESCRIPTIVE SYSTEM.
I\'m not going to explain it all over again.. just read what I posted.

about your lag problems, I don\'t see how this could in any way be related in how it is shown, if you have lag your stats won\'t get updated so fast, no matter how they\'re displayed.

About your uber swords + 5, these kind of things don\'t fit in my ideas at all. What is a sword +5 anyways? if a sword would be stronger it could be enforced with steel or whatever, so that makes a \"sword enforced with steel\", maybe a it\'s long, but atleast it makes sense..

And to Xandria: I completely agree with your ideas

[Cyrandir]

wow xandria, I do believe that you have made the first argument ever that has started to convice me that this may be the way to go.  I\'m a D&D player from way back and still DM regularly, and I\'m VERY attached to my numbers.  However, if implemented the way you described, I do believe that I could not only live with it but like it a lot.  You have at least a possible convert from me.  Good ideas, everyone.  Keep talking about it.

[Ghostslayer]

Originally posted by Xandria
Okay here\'s how it works:  You create a new character which comes pre-equipped with a ratbashinstick, and start whacking away at the little vermin.  You eventually come across this nice big iron broad sword.  You think \"cool, mucho-damage!\"  So you equip the said weapon and proceed to kill armadillos (I dunno, the best I could come up with ).  Your character starts to make his attack, except his very low strength level only allows him to swing the giant sword about once every 10 seconds, and his even lower dexterity doesn\'t allow him to have any accuracy whatsoever.  So while any character can equip a weapon (as you could in real life), that doesn\'t mean you\'ll be able to do a single point of damage.  And it won\'t be a case of being at the shop and going \"hey I\'ll trade in my 50-60 damage sword for this 80-90 damage axe\" because the axe uses an entirely different attribute set than the sword, plus, your character has probably been getting experienced using swords and will have to start learning axes from square one.

I like this idea .  The only thing that I would add would be some sort of text indicator when you look at the item to describe your ability to use it.  Eg.  \"The weapon feels too heavy for you to use properly\" (ie need to build up your str), or \"The weapon feels awkward to wield\" (ie you need to work on your dex).  Basically the same as anyone in real life trying out a weapon.  They could tell if the weapon is too heavy for them to weild properly and if the weapon design is complicated for them to wield.

[Axsyrus]

lol, that completely makes Xandria\'s idea unnecesary. you should get to know if you can use something by trial and error. If it\'s to heavy, too bad.. go train some more.

It would be nice to try out weapons before you use them though, so you don\'t buy useless stuff all the time(just try to swing it a few times, things like that).

[Dalec]

If numbers are being showed, you have a clear mathmatical understanding of where your health/mana or whatever is. With bar\'s, you\'re kind of guessing (not to say that it wouldn\'t be accurate. I like the combined idea\'s of Xandria and Ghostslayer however. You would need Ghostslayer\'s idea to make Xanria\'swork however.

Either way, numbers are easy, and it is only a matter of whether you will see them or not. No biggie if you ask me, however I still like to know how many HP I have, even if it really doesn\'t benefit me.