Author Topic: Weapons and attacking - BIGGIE  (Read 3764 times)

Saphire

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Weapons and attacking - BIGGIE
« on: February 16, 2004, 02:18:46 am »
We all know that attacking with melee and ranged weapons can be either as unique and interesting as Soul Calibur 2, or as repetitive and borring as poking a dead rat with a stick. Attack types - Defensive, Berzerk, Cautious - can all increase the \"fun\" level of fighting, but not by much. As well, it\'s somewhat over-done. So, i hope to impress upon you a different fighting system worthy of PS. :P First, i\'ll outline my ideas for attacking with melee weapons and sheilds:

(Please note that LMB (Left mouse button) and RMB (Right mouse button) ARE interchangable, incase someone wants to weild their sword in their LEFT hand, instead of their right. [As well, you dont have to exagerate movements greatly. Mouse sensitivity can be increased to get necessary movement to start slashing. 5-10mm would be enough to start slashing with the default sensitivity.])

The main way to control your melee weapon is with your mouse movements and clicking. To slash, you click your LMB (Left Mouse Button) and move your mouse in a direction. A upward slash would be a click and upward mouse movement. A right-handed slash would be a click and mouse movement from top left to bottom right. And so on. To stab right click. Movement can also dictate where the stab is comming from (downward stabs are the best. trust me, i know. :D ) No movement on a slash will turn in into a stab; no movement on a right-click stab will still stab, except go strait (a thrust)

You can also dictate how the attack will go down with your foot movements - Moving left will give more power to a slash headed to the left, moving right will make a slash headed right more powerful. Moving forward will produce a powerful thrust or stab. Moving backwards will add a larger arch to your swing and pull it back faster.

Of course, that\'s for bladed weapons... If you\'re using a mace a downward slash becomes a devastating bludgeoning blow. Pikes could peirce bodies impaling several people at once. Pole arms would have devastating wide-archs breathing destruction everywhere they touch save the enemy close to them, etc etc.

\"But what of sheilds?\" I hear you say. No problem. Your sheild takes over your right mouse button. Right clicking will bring the shield up, ready to deflect a blow or stop a missile weapon. The bigger the sheild the more of a chance the attack will hit the sheild and not you! Dont worry though - you can still thrust and stab; just move forward when you do. Moving the mouse in a direction while the shield is up will move the sheild around to that part of your body. This way you can cover your right side without looking right.

However, you\'re limited on how far you can move the sheild - Moving the sheild all the way to the left while weilding it in your right hand will constrict your left arm - you can\'t swing you\'re sword very well. switching your weapon with your sheild will happen if you press crouch and the RMB (Right Mouse Button) quickly together. Switching takes awhile though, so you\'ll be vulnerable as your weapon and sheild switches hands.

You can bash with your sheild by pressing the RMB and then the LMB with directional input from the mouse and movement, as well. Moving forward will bash forwards - swinging the mouse to the right will arch a bash going right. Wielding TWO sheilds gives you a LARGE defensive bonus, simply because you have two sheilds. Bashing with two sheilds is simple; you press the sheild you want to bash with represented by your 2 mouse buttons (remember Left hand tied to LMB and Right hand tied to RMB) and then you press the other mouse button to initate the bash. Foot movement and mouse movement again dictate what the bash does.

Missile weapons - there are two common types - thrown missiles and shot missiles.

Throwing missiles are easy - Move your mouse and press your LMB to dictate the arc, and while you hold down the LMB the missile will be thrown farther/shorter because a slider power bar will apear on the screen with a indicator moving up and down for as long as you hold the LMB. The top of the bar is power, and the bottom of the bar is accuracy.

If you want to chuck that rock REALLY hard... wait until the indicator is on the upper half of the bar. If you want that shot to land exactly where you want it to at the end of the arc, wait until the indicator is on the lower half. Of course, the middle is the base accuracy/power of the missile and you have to hold it for at least 2 seconds to get maximum distance. Clicking with the RMB will make you bash/stab with the missile that\'s in your hand.

Shooting the missile - There are always different ways of shooting projectiles - Bows, Crossbows, Slings, Blowguns, and many others. Each one is different, though, but they all require ammo.

Crossbows are the simplest to shoot and reload. It requires 2 hands, and fires bolts or darts. To shoot, just press the LMB. Once shot, you can press and hold the LMB to tension the string. A meter will pop up, and the longer you hold the LMB, the tighter the string will get - but be warned - if you hold the LMB down for too long you\'ll over-tension the string and possibly break it! Low tension means low power, so be sure to tighten it properly - unless you want to not tension the string properly. Pressing the RMB gives a bash - again - the basic movement of feet and mouse gives power and direction.

Slings and Blowguns are just like a throwing projectile. A power/accuracy bar pops up when you hold the LMB down. Holding down the LMB for too long will make you tired, though, and you\'ll eventually lose power and accuracy until it stays dead-middle for 3 seconds and then stops. If you let go of the LMB here, you wont fire and you\'ll have to hold it down to try to shoot again. These weapons are also commonly one-handed, so you can carry a sheild/other weapon in the free hand.

Shooting with a bow has all the usual elements, but is trickier - two handed and able to bash (though not that well if it\'s wooden) but it, too, has something different. A stress meter. The longer you hold the arrow in place, the more stressed you become. Accuracy and power is based on how little stress you have. When you first press the LMB the bar will start at 1/3 the total amount of stess - this is you pulling the arrow into place. However, after that initial amount of stress, the meter goes down but then rises at a speed dependant on your stats. The higher the meter goes the less power, distance, and accuracy you\'ll get - so be sure to fire the arrow before your stress becomes too much.

Countering attacks from enemies is a vital part of survival. A upwards diagonal slash could be countered with a horizontal slash or vertical choping motion. Pole arms would only deal damage around their slicing implement - weapons could very well break the pole between the blade and the user, leaving the weapon useless (unless the connection was magical between the handle and the blade.) As well, you can\'t ignore weapon dynamics - pikes will stop and probably kill the short sword user where as crossbows may defeat the pikeman\'s armor. crossbows would take VERY long to reload, so if the crossbower misses, he\'s mostly screwed against anything. maces would be defeated by sheilds, and swords would be countered by armors that deflect slicing blows. Etc etc...

Different ways of shooting and fighting - Just a little side-track from the main idea, you would be able to hold multiple projectiles in a shooter or in your hand and throw/shoot them, spraying them over a area like a shotgun. You could put multiple bolts onto a crossbow, but it might become highly inaccurate. You could also weild two small swords/daggers in one hand, for double the slashing and stabbing power, but they might slip around. As well, small things like daggers and arrows could be thrown even without a projectile weapon, but they might not be as powerful as when they\'re in their proper shooter. For instance you could substitute crossbow bolts for daggers, but they probably wont do very well as a projectile. (Im not saying they wouldn\'t work, im just saying they may not work as well as the proper ammo.)

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All in all, i think this Soul Calibur 2-like attack and defense combat system would breathe total and rejuvinating air back into the severly deflated balloon that is \"Attack type/method/tactics - hack and slash.\" Of course, this could only really work well with a Real Time combat engine, but... i think it would work in turn based, too. Not sure, but i think so (As long as each player could respond to moves durring the other\'s turn. I just dont see turn based combat being fun in a MMORPG... ?( )

Well, go on. Post away.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2004, 02:49:40 am by Saphire »
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Phinehas

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« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2004, 02:22:48 am »
Now THAT is what I\'m talkin\' \'bout! This is it! This is what I have desired to see in a game forever! This would rule! This would be so awesome! Unfortunately, I\'m not sure just how possible it actually is, and, chances are that what the devs have planned is a lot more boring. However, it\'s an AWESOME idea.

Kixie

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« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2004, 02:28:01 am »
Look people. the combat is already in place. You cannot change it now. Oh well its gone. Let\'s think of some more important things than recycled combat ideas. I mean seriously come off of it already. Sure its a good idea, but this is a wish list section, not a \"lets post something really cool that will NEVER happen\" section. Im sorry to be that harsh but the combat is done, finished, already put out to pasture. Lets think of somethings that really matter. IF you would have posted this, lets say 3 months ago then sure it would get lots of good reviews. But its one month prior to the estimated release. Sorry you lose.

BUT since i see you have put lots of thought into this post, I will put just as much thought into a review. Your ideas are just a tad difficult and complicated. If you could simplify this down a bit it would be a PERFECT set up. How ever this is an MMORPG. There needs to be a simple combat system. Almost a bit boring. Why? Because it stops power leveling. If its too much fun people will just level all day. Then we have a serious problem. Its just like goverment. Sure they could put all thier money into putting the homeless into homes and giving free money on the streets, but the economy would crash and ultimately the country would be in ruins. You have to manage things like this very carefully.

Phinehas

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« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2004, 02:32:26 am »
I understand and concur with your first paragraph Whemy, except not so harshly.

As for the second paragraph, what\'s wrong with making the combat enjoyable? Just make it take longer to level. I\'d rather enjoy myself for a long time than be bored real fast, if you get what I mean.

Kixie

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« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2004, 02:39:04 am »
well it has to be boring to keep thing balanced for one. 2 it has to be simple enough for people not to need a tutorial. I dont want to have to sit through some darn tutorial for 2 minutes... 3 Combat could be enjoyable sure, but the setup this person has just isnt what i would want it to be. And since this is that thread with that particular setup that person is trying to put foward, i have to say I dont like it and it is too complicated. From what it looks like People would have a hard time actually slashing. I would rather click a mouse button and hold a number button while clicking and have to about 5 different attack stances. But it doesnt matter anyways. the combat is final and done!

Saphire

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« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2004, 02:43:35 am »
Combat systems can be changed and overhauled, especially when it\'s a MMORPG that\'s getting continual updates.

And it wont never happen; it wont never happen now. Later on down the road it might just so happen that the engine has been uprgaded, and would then be able to utilize such a system. Ideas arn\'t meant to be implemented now - they\'re there for food for thought. And did i ever say they had to put this in right bloody now or i\'ll blow myself up? No.

Quote
If you could simplify this down a bit it would be a PERFECT set up. How ever this is an MMORPG. There needs to be a simple combat system. Almost a bit boring. Why? Because it stops power leveling. If its too much fun people will just level all day. Then we have a serious problem.


There\'s a problem with people having too much fun fighting? LOL!!1! :D Fighting monsters in a RPG is supposed to be fun, especially with and against other players! With this system you could battle for awhile and never land a hit against another PC because he keeps blocking and deflecting your blows. Then you finally decide you\'ve had enough and swap your sword for a hand crossbow, and plant a bolt into his [unprotected] neck. 8)


Ack, forgot to add whips into the mix, too... In fact, that\'s why i thought of this system. So that whips would be effective tools and weapons. With this, you could direct which way a whip would slash and crack. Could even scare some enemies away if you cracked it hard enough or coil around a enemy\'s weapon and dissarm him...

Food for thought, dude, food for thought.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2004, 02:44:55 am by Saphire »
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Phinehas

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« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2004, 02:49:49 am »
This is a combat system for real gamers, if you\'re not one of them Whemy, then go post in some other thread.

Saphire

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« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2004, 02:54:54 am »
Altered some things in the post.

You wouldn\'t have to exagerate movements, either.

Quote
well it has to be boring to keep thing balanced for one

No, it doesn\'t. Monsters will always have a set amount of health and thus take a certain amount of time to kill each time. Killing 4 monsters with this system could be just as slow, possibly slower, as killing 4 monsters with any other system.

Quote
2 it has to be simple enough for people not to need a tutorial

You dont need to read a tutorial. 3 lines can explain the system perfectly. \"Mouse buttons are bound to your left and right hands. To attack, press the mouse button and move your mouse around. you will then attack in the direction you moved the mouse.\"

And please know, just because i said press the RMB when you have a sheild, i was assuming you\'re holding the sheild in the right hand. If you have it held in the Left hand, pressing the LMB will do the same.
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Phinehas

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« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2004, 03:00:30 am »
Here\'s a question for you. I love your system, but I wanna see how you implement magic use. I can\'t wait to see this. I love idea people.

Kixie

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« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2004, 03:04:41 am »
here is a simplified version of what i think your setup is trying to achieve. you use about 6 buttons. Your number buttons 1-5 and your Left Mouse button (can be changed for left hand players) Now for different attacks 1 could be the generic STRONG attack for a weapon 2 could be the generic defence attack for a weapon 3 al around attack 4 special cool attack (depending on weapons) you can only use special attacks a ceratain number of times. Here i will make a list what happens for generic types of weapons

Staff, Blunt weapon: 1. Swipe weapon at face region of enemy with one hand (even if its a 2 handed weapon) 2. Hold weapon with 2 hands in front of you in a crouch position blocking untill you click and you make a swipe to the sides of enemy 3. Swiping weapon at face but occationally taking the time to block. 4 Taking weapon with 2 hands and jumping into the air and bashing the enemy on the head.

Longswords, Short swords: 1: Slashing at enemy 2: Poking enemy taking times to block after attack. if you have a shield then you use your shield to block, if you dont you can use a not as effective blocking stance. 3: you switch to use your shield or blocking manuever only half of the regular time but do more damage. 4. Special Wirlwind attack.

Whips: 1. Crack whip at enemy. 2. hold whiip like rope infront of you and then swing over head for attack. 3 half and half of defence and attack posture. 4. Special jump over enemy on back and choke.

halberd, spears: 1. Poke (what would you expect?) 2. swipe at face but take time afterwards to block holding shaft in front of you in horizontal position (nothing different really) 3. of course half and half. 4. Thrust very very very quickly.

bows, crossbows, and projectiles: 1-4 modifies how hard you throw it and defend.

Now that covers just about all of it. This would fix the bar you talked about and give you a simple interface. Now here is how you should use the buttons. It will feel wierd but you can get used to it.  put your pinky on \"a\" your index on \"d\" and you put your ring or middle on \"d\" depending on if you use number 1,2 or 3,4. You use the a, s, d, w keys to move around while you fight. You can use your thumb hold shift or use \"s\" of its comfortable. You have to get used the controls but it would work.

But its up to you if this is a better system in your oppinion. But it wont ever be implemented. so this whole post is a waste really. but it was fun to dream....

Saphire

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Well...
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2004, 03:04:58 am »
That\'s really for a different time, different thread. 8) [for the magic system]
« Last Edit: February 16, 2004, 03:11:44 am by Saphire »
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« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2004, 03:07:48 am »
Ok, I\'m impressed Whemy. Those are two very good systems. VERY good. It was a nice dream Whem, too bad it prolly won\'t ever happen. Personally, I prefer Saphire\'s system, but Whem\'s would be easier and fairer on non-hardcore gamers.

Saphire

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« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2004, 03:11:23 am »
It probably wont happen now, but it has a fair chance to happen later, and yes, that is a good system as well, Whemyfield.
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Sunken

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Very good system !!!!!1
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2004, 03:55:04 am »
Oh MAN ! it\'s my dream !!!!

I hope i can use that system in future releases, please, weake me up !!! I LOVE IT  :))

I like the first one, not the simplefied one. I was reading the first thread and imaginating tha battle... so cool !!!

I can\'t stop crying  ;(

_____________________________________________

Ps: The Saphire\'s is the best... whemmyfield sorry, but the Shapires system is better.

Some fix... not use the mouse all the time, a character\'s movement using the keyboard is not a bad idea. :]
« Last Edit: February 16, 2004, 04:01:51 am by Sunken »

Deddarus

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« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2004, 04:28:39 am »
the mouse button config in this idea is similar to one that i put into a mage orientated game design document i did a while back

this is how magic would work in that design

there would be several classes of magic.. in the case of my design these were:

fire
water
air
earth
ice
energy
shadow
light

each hand would be loaded with a magic class

clicking the left button with a spellclass loaded into it would cause a defensive spell of that class to be cast

clicking the RMB with a spellclass loaded would cause an aggresive spell of that class to be cast

if the same class is loaded into both hands and both buttons are pressed simulatneously then a powerfull spell of that class would be cast

if different spell classes were loaded into each hand and both buttons pressed at the same time then a spell would be cast that is of a new class derived from the 2 loaded classes

(eg fire + water = steam, shadow + water = poison, air + energy = tornado)

oh yeah... + u couldnt use shadow + light together