Author Topic: The --Serious-- Political thread  (Read 4003 times)

Monketh

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The --Serious-- Political thread
« on: March 05, 2004, 01:21:30 am »
Ok people, I\'ve had enough arguing.

Bush is not the perfect president, nor is he a great president.

But-
Unlike some people here think is, he is not evil.  Nor is he a bad president.  Politics is about choosing the lesser of two evils, no?

The online community is very liberal, both smart and stupid members of the online community are so.
The High-School community is left-leaning, with honors class students being the conservatives.  (People here want Bush out of office because he is the one in office, they would say the same thing about Gore if Gore were president.  It\'s popular to be anti-Bush.)

Anyway, I\'m fed up with this stuff.  So...
I want some real answers, no comparisons to famous historical figures, no evidence-less points, no blog-quoting, none of that.
Anyone saying just \"Iraq.\" will be shot.
Anyone mocking this post and ruining the seriousness of this thread will be shot twice.

-Blogs can not be used as evidence.
-No comparisons to Hitler, Alexander the Great, Conquering Emporers, etc...
-All posts must contain some form of evidence from an article other than this board.
-Things short similar to campaign commercials are, of course, completely off limits
ex:I want to know HOW Bush is under-cutting medicare, not why.
-No conspiracy theorems.  
There is no way in h3ll Bush directly caused 9/11, anyone posting something as ludicrous as this will cause the poster to be completely disregarded in this thread.  This includes any information in their posts.
-I may at any time require you to post another source to back your argument.  I don\'t care if you call that bias.

--Monketh, who wants some thing real


(*sigh*  Why are there no moderate parties in America?  If only Liebermann could have had a chance...)
The key to manipulative bargaining is to ask for something twice as big as what you want, then smile and nod when you are talked down to your original wish. You are still young, my apprentice, and have much to learn in the ways of the force. -UtM

Vengeance

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« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2004, 01:41:19 am »
What is the question?

Kixie

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« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2004, 01:47:01 am »
yes i fail to see the point of the thread. Wait wait... I\'ll do the honors myself *shoots himself*

Olig

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« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2004, 01:53:54 am »
With all the horrible stuff that our presidents do, it is a miracle that life goes on................  I really dont care about politics anymore because the figures are all raped to fit the fabricated need of the people. Leave the rat race and hope for an apocolypse, but in the meantime, Im playing some PS.
Beware that I am distorted in my wording if you do not understand me at all.



Davis

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« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2004, 02:02:23 am »
What\'s with all these complaints presidents? The party house controls the country, not the president. They choose the presidents, they fund their campaigns... of course they have these people on a leash.

acraig

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« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2004, 02:03:36 am »
\"Turn on to politics, or politics will turn on you.\" --  Ralph Nader

Even if you don\'t vote ( you should! ) then pay attention to what your leaders are doing and saying.  



\"Naturally, the common people don\'t  want war
neither in Russia nor in England nor in America,
nor for that matter in Germany.
That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders
of the country who determine the policy and
it is always a simple matter to drag the people
along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist
dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist
dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can
always be brought to the bidding of the leaders.
That is easy. All you have to do is tell them
they are being attacked and denounce the
pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing
the country to danger. It works the same way
in any country.\"

I will not attribute this quote as it is more effective if you don\'t know who it came from right away.
----------
Andrew
"For all I know, she's lying, everyone's lying; welcome to the Internet"

NewPie

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« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2004, 02:20:06 am »
Bah ... why should I be thinking about america when we have something worse here in europe ... its called EU. ;)

Monketh

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« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2004, 03:11:12 am »
Quote
Originally posted by Vengeance
What is the question?


Ah, typical Venge post.

Quote
Originally posted by acraig
\"Naturally, the common people don\'t  want war
neither in Russia nor in England nor in America,
nor for that matter in Germany.
That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders
of the country who determine the policy and
it is always a simple matter to drag the people
along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist
dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist
dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can
always be brought to the bidding of the leaders.
That is easy. All you have to do is tell them
they are being attacked and denounce the
pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing
the country to danger. It works the same way
in any country.\"


Good, not quite what I\'m looking for, but good.

Quote
Originally posted by Olig
Leave the rat race and hope for an apocolypse,


Err...    Without life there can be no joy?


Anywho, as should be obvious, I\'m looking for a justification of Bush-bashing.  What makes any of the Democratic candidates better?
The key to manipulative bargaining is to ask for something twice as big as what you want, then smile and nod when you are talked down to your original wish. You are still young, my apprentice, and have much to learn in the ways of the force. -UtM

Kixie

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« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2004, 03:29:10 am »
ah i see. ive always been a bush compromiser. not a basher and not an avid supporter. really i like where i stand. it suits me. bush hasnt been a bad president, stupid hick americans portray him and then half the country follows.

 the lemming effect is very strong in our country, especially in our youth. one person will make a comment and everyone will agree, and i love to dissagree especially publicly in school. most of the people in my school dont think of me as political at all, just another boy who follows the crowd, and its really funny to surprise them and dissagree with the teachers and actually make valid points.

but enough about me, my point is 1 person in america makes a half-valid point and the rest of america follows like a lemming right off of the edge. Idiots. Bassically what has happened is bush stutters in a couple of his speeches and then america thinks hes a complete moron. you have to have some IQ level to be president, you dont just become president.

    Now to the darkside, however i have lots of things to say bad about our president. he is too easily influenced by the republican party and is very trigger happy when it comes to starting a war. I like his style, but he comes out to the public about his views way to much.

Being the president and not a social icon is very important to me and basically bush has been being the president, which i like, then trying to be popular afterwards. very dissapointing and hypocritical. Also i dont think he handled 9/11 right. after 9/11 he shoulda sucked up that remourse and pity from everyone like a sponge, at least thats what I woulda done. but instead he acted like a jerk and used it as an excuse to bomb afghanistan. I woulda handled it totally differently and got everyones pity and then invaded afghanistan ONLY after i got 100% agreement with the UN. Same goes with Iraq. Both of those wars had valid points and objectives, but were handled completly wrong and sloppily. Almost half assed really.

So really overall I would say that bush has met par being president. good but not spectacular. many mistakes lead to his downfall popularity wise, but since I could care less about his poularity and im a republican I have to say overall im a bush supporter, but definally not a blind sheep, like so much of america is.

Dalec

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« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2004, 03:35:32 am »
Ok I\'m scared to post anything now...but here goes. Be warned, I expect to rant. Also know I put this here because it seemed like a close enough topic, and since no real question was given I threw it in :P I think Bush is a fairly good president. He is not great, but not all presidents can be so, and he is not horrible despite all the empty hate messages aimed at him. As for the calling him stupid jokes that seem to never end, well it is quite redundant. At least around 45% of America voted for Bush, so to call him stupid is to call anyone who voted for him a moron for not knowing who they were really voting for. Also, I would like to see any of you adress thousands of people daily and not make a few slip ups in your speeches. Stupid and immature, if you ask me. Then again, I suppose no one really is asking.

Note: I tried to make this as un-offensive as possible, as I am not in anyway racist or prjeduce, and I am sorry if something appears offensive.

READ ME: As for the war in Iraq, whoever says ANYTHING anti-war about Iraq in my opinion is offending the entire coutnry. The fact is, we are in Iraq. Do you propose we pack up and leave? Pull out all of our troops which cost tax dollars to get there? Forget the troops that already died, let them die for no cause? This is stupid. Get over it, we attacked Iraq. Maybe it wasn\'t the greatest idea, but we sure as hell need to finish what we started! And the terrorist community needs a kicking in its ass, that has been long over-due (and face it, Saddam is a terrorist).

Here come the thought which will undoubtedly cause flamage: The Middle Eastern Arabic culture is dying. Their lifestyle, (for a majority obviously) is not very good, and whether they accept our idea\'s or not, they are not going to be content living on their own. The terrorist attacks are a last wave of resistence against the new \'modern era\', and it is soon to crash. Yes, there will always be terrorism, but I am talking about middle eastern terrorism. Other countries have already reformed to the modern era, and countries such as India and China are starting to make enconomic growth. If you don\'t believe me, look at any major corp. and find out how many execs are from across seas. The idea here is that the countries who have accepted that life is changing (as human life inevitably will) seem to be making better of it by just accepting that things don\'t stay the same forever.

My Historical Opinion: I think that the terrorism war goes deeper than the events of this past decade, or century. Europe and the Arabic coountries have never gotten along well, and much of it is to be blamed on Europe. When the Arabs invaded Europe in centuries past, they were tolerant of European religion and let the people continue their beliefs with perhaps only a small tax. In return, the Catholic community, after winning its freedom decided that Muslims were evil heathen and needed to be wiped from the earth (reminds me of Hitler...Oh boy I can feel the heat from the flames..) so crusades were cast upon the Middle East time and time again. No tolerance, no real reason to do so other than conflicting beliefs (ok, I guess that is a major reason in all warfare, but you get my drift). In return, a hatred grew between the cultures that to this day is in my opinion, burried in the culture of many Arabs; I would even say hidden in it.

So war between Arabic countries and Europe have gone on forever we all know. I therefore think it is quite possible that some of the hatred towards the U.S. might be well deserved, though not for the reasons the terrorist leaders claim, and certaintly the hatred SHOULD be absolete by now. However, we all know hatred that should be long forgotten has a way of hanging around waiting for the right time to strike. And such a strong hatred would be even harder to forgive or forget.

The U.S. is the easier target than European countries because: 1. We are the largest and easiest to make arguments against   2. We are like a melting pot for all European countries (And others, but that is not the point) This makes us a prime target for terrorism, and it is to be expected. For the immediate future, I can only see terrorism getting worse, but such is the wave of terrorism.

I do not know what will come, I do not have all the answers. I only know what I think I know, and what I think I know might be wrong :P (that was just to confuse you)

My opinions; probably stupid ones as well. Keep in mind I\'m only a Junior in High School, and I only know what I have learned :P I consider myself to be somewhat smart so I figured maybe my opinion might matter :)
« Last Edit: March 05, 2004, 03:37:51 am by Dalec »

Grakrim

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« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2004, 03:46:03 am »
First of all, sorry Monketh.  I can\'t speak for the others, but I was just having some fun with you; exagerating my liberal views into paranoia and conspiracy... I apologize as I obviously upset you somewhat.  Politics is a strange beast, both personal and public.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand.  My hatred of Bush is based on my firm logic and morals:

1) First of all, he has (or rather had) near to no experience.  Governor of Texas is not comparable to the prestegious office of President.

2) While Bush may have inherited a minor recession from President Clinton, he turned it into a major economic situation through his poor handling (taxes, to mention one)

3) Bush came into the office with the intention to topple Iraq, September 11th merely provided a means to accomplish this task.  Quoth \'Dubya, \"He tried to kill my daddy\".  To double up, Haliburton, of which Cheny once had a high rank and still has ties, got multiple contracts without even so much as placing a bid.

4) Most recently is the Gay Marriage \"crisis\".  Bush intends to change the constitution, the very pillar of our nation, to, firstly, invade the rights and privacy of citizens, and secondly, and sickenly, to gain votes.  Rewriting the constiution to be re-elected is a vile and shameful practice; in fact, the consitution isn\'t intended to be modified or amended except in the most severe of cases, hence the reason its so difficult to do in the first place.

There are other instances, but these are some of the prime examples.
\" I think you should just follow Grakrim\'s advice ;)\"

\"A universe is enough for more than one opinion.\" - Maxximus

Davis

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« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2004, 03:50:03 am »
Quote
Originally posted by Monketh Anywho, as should be obvious, I\'m looking for a justification of Bush-bashing.  What makes any of the Democratic candidates better?

They all suck.

And Grak:

1) Then what is? Senator? *snorts*
2) I see no major economic sitation.
3) That may or may not be true, but it\'s a good point. In my opinion, Iraq is better off without Saddam, so I have no problems with that.
4) Most people seem to be in support of it; why shouldn\'t he? Anything you do good can be said to be just to get reelected.

The thing I have a problem with is that America just seems to forget to pull troops out of places. Don\'t we still have soldiers in Japan or something like that?

Dalec

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« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2004, 04:34:21 am »
Yeah whats all this talk about Bush ruining our economy? Despite what you may think, and mind you havn\'t given any proof, he has helped our economy a great bit. Tax return policiy: Everyone should know what this was for. It gave everyone a couple hundred spending dollars to feed back into the economy. That seems like a good idea to me. As for that only benefiting the rich...Lol The country is run by the rich! They keep our economy going, and they have the power to bring it to its knee\'s as well. What if Bill Gates and Wal-Mart decided to close down their business for good and not sell? Unlikely, but it would be a blow to the economy. Anyway, the economy is never going to stay up forever. Our economy got extremely high and you can\'t expect it to last forever, there is a point when things being to fall apart no matter WHAT you do. Therefore I think Bush has done a fairly good job of keeping the economy at a reasonable level.

All politicians rave about how they are going to improve this and add that. I would like to see a candidate who came out and realized the truth: This is a Damn good country to live in, and besides minor things, we are in good shape. We don\'t need higher taxes, or more government involvement of our privacy. Why can\'t gays get married and have rights? Because religions can\'t handle it? It seems all anyone wants to do anymore is shove more and more control down your throat and everyone seems to be accepting it without question. If this continues, how long before our country is so violated that it is no longer the great country it was? If you ask me, we need less government and we shouldn\'t be so caught up in making more laws and trying to make everything \'safe\'. School should be safe. The Real World is to bite you in the ass and wake you up once you get out of school.

sashok

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« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2004, 04:42:44 am »
I always liked how Bush handled the after 911, at least I thought previous presidents would handled it much worse.  The thing is, 911 didn\'t happen because Bush came into office.  American intelligence was weak and everyone knew that.  It became so bad that people coming to US by plane were not the least bit checked or given an interview, \"welcome to USA\".  So, what happenned?  Buncha terrorists came along and had a piknic on US ground.  CIS, FBI, of course I don\'t work there and don\'t know, but islamic terrorism was thought of a thing of the past, well it\'s that way in USA, if they make a movie about it, that means it won\'t happen again, it\'s history :D  But it happenned and I don\'t blame Bush, or anyone for that matter, no pointing fingers.  
Bush came out strong, I really liked that.  It was time to show terrorist ogranizations that America is capable to do more than film war movies in Holywood.
So, first Afganistan, ok, I think Bush had to finish with Osama first,that\'s when I would act differently.  I would have pressed  on Saudi Arabia to let US military patrol their borders since Osama is from Saudi and Saudi has lots of terror organization, being a very rich country.  Anyway, the war with Iraq was idealogically good(Saddam n all), but in reality, more of our peoplez died, more money was spent, so far no firm control has been established.  
So my point is, I\'ll wait till next year to decide who to vote for, right now I\'m sceptical against Bush.

Kixie

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« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2004, 04:46:54 am »
Quote
Originally posted by sashok20
So my point is, I\'ll wait till next year to decide who to vote for, right now I\'m sceptical against Bush.


*points and laughs* they vote this year ya know... *snort*