What it means to be good, evil, or neutral

[Draklar]

I think thief can be lawful-evil only if he works for government.
chaotic-neutral... hmm.... I think not that serious about stealing, simply doing so when he feels like it...

[Fiere]

I could see a thief as lawful-evil, lets say they work for an organization. They steal and kill( for the broader assassin/rogue definition of thief) for their employer accordign to the set rules. Maybe they work for an evil government or a rigid thieves guild. I dunno thats how i would rationalize that.

Fiere is neutral-evil (shhh don\'t tell the Princess) but she has her loyalties :]

[Vengeance]

Wow Fiere.  ltns.  Great to see you back.

-Venge

[Fiere]

Thanks Venge!
Nice to be back although I was never truly gone, just lurking in shadow

[Sangwa]

No wait I mean thieves... those who steal as a profession, not assassins or spies or robbers... thieves real ones who just like to steal stuff stealthly. You are characterizing the rogue class, which the thief is part of.
It\'s chaotic neutral because stealing is agaisnt the law, but thieves have no interest in making people\'s lives miserable, it sometimes happens, but not their main objective.

[Draklar]

Definition: [n]  a criminal who takes property belonging to someone else with the intention of keeping it or selling it
criminal =  malefactor
by d&d alignments  
malefactor = neutral-evil

[Sangwa]

Just because it says criminal? Ok, it\'s a kind of criminal, but not a melfactor criminal =P.
Thieves don\'t quite fill the Malefactor\'s (?Neutral Evil, ?Malefactor?: A neutral evil villain does whatever she can get away with. She is out for herself, pure and simple. She sheds no tears for those she kills, whether for profit, sport, or convenience. She has no love of order and holds no illusion that following laws, traditions, or codes would make her any better or more noble. On the other hand, she doesn?t have the restless nature or love of conflict that a chaotic evil villain has.?) shoes. Thieves have a restless nature against the law, since they know the law but still defy it and they also care about who they kill, because they only do so to protect themselves (that\'s why they steal instead of looting).
In the other hand they are more like the Free Spirit (?Chaotic Neutral, ?Free Spirit?: A chaotic neutral character follows his whims. He is an individualist first and last. He values his own liberty but doesn?t strive to protect others? freedom. He avoids authority, resents restrictions, and challenges traditions. A chaotic neutral character does not intentionally disrupt organizations as part of a campaign of anarchy. To do so, he would have to be motivated either by good (and a desire to liberate others) or evil (and a desire to make those different from himself suffer). A chaotic neutral character may be unpredictable, but his behavior is not totally random. He is not as likely to jump off a bridge as to cross it.?) char, since they respect their freedom, don\'t care about the law abiding people or about the law itself, they do as they please and they do what they do generally for themselves.

[Draklar]

well there are thieves like neutral-evil...
this is pointless tho\', as thief could be any alignment besides lawful-good...

[Fiere]

Sangwa,

Ok thieves only but I still think my idea applies. There is the term \"Professional Thief\" which implies employment however illegal it may be in light of whatever laws (fantasy or real).

In which case if one is a career thief doing another\'s bidding they may follow particular rules and codes making them lawful evil.

I am not saying \"Thieves are lawful evil\" just that they could be.

Rogues could too

So in other words I think we are both right.

Heck as somone mentioned above thieves could be chaotic-good like Robin Hood.

Tough to manage lawful-good though I bet one could figure it out Would depend on the law of the land and just what sorta gov\'t ruled there. But thats a whole \'nother ball of wax.

In reguards to the \"Malefactor\" definition you listed (what edition is that btw please?) I begin to wonder if Neutral-Evil is the right alignment to classify Fiere as since my concept doesn\'t fill some of those requirements precisely. I don\'t think she fills any other ones exactly either and if she did she would change just to be a pest  

[Draklar]

Originally posted by Fiere
Tough to manage lawful-good though I bet one could figure it out

like I said above - nope
from website about creating chars in 1st edition of AD&D:
\"A Thief may not be Lawful Good, but may be lawful or good or any other alignment.\"

[Sangwa]

Yes the alignment is strange.
You character may think following a certain alignment but depending on what happened to him he may still think like that and act on the behalf of some one with a different alignment.
In that case his actions are aligned with his master\'s/employers\'s but his way of seeing things and his reasons for doing those things may be his own and have his own alignment.

EDIT: Sometimes thieves are confused with rogues.
However they can also be lawful good.Not my original idea, but according to GBA\'s Fire Emblem I\'ll show you an example: Ostia (A Lawful Good capital) hires a thief to work for them, stealing and spying evil enemies.

[Zetsumei]

Hey Sangwa, where were you getting that nice, long, lovely information from before?

[Draklar]

you mean this?

[Fiere]

Originally Posted by Draklar

like I said above - nope  

Oh dear, you\'ve gone and told me no. I don\'t comprehend that word terribly well

But seriously I still think just about anything can be rationalized out. ~ Edit note:*points down to Redmonk\'s post* Thanks Redmonk!Thats what I mean ~  Whether its allowed by the ruleset of a particular game is another matter. Apparently according to to first addition D&D it\'s not allowed but even that depends on your DM. I generally figure alignment by D&D too though I never got the chance to play 1st edition ;(  (so deprived)

I don\'t know what the alignment rules are for PS if there are set ones and I haven\'t looked recently so maybe there are.

Anyway I\'m gonna just agree to disagree on the points considered above for Thieves in general and what is allowed for PS remains  to be seen (for me anyway)

On another note the originator of this post said ( and I need to catch up on posts between then and this page)

Good Guilds:
\"Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.\"

Evil Guilds:
\"Law! What do I care about the law? Haven\'t I got the power?\"

Neutral Guilds:
\"Your only obligation in any lifetime is to be true to yourself.\"  

Hmm well Fiere personally follows the second two as an individual and makes a slight adjustment to number one for herself

\"Do not be overcome , but overcome obstacles with whatever means neccessary.\"

Still sticking with a personal alignment of neutral-evil,what do you guys personally qualify yourselves as?

[TheRedMonk]

What alignment does a thief have that works for the government and whos only job is to recover (steal) things from evil dictators and barons, who have stolen the stuff from the poor. and then hand them back to its rightful owners???    Lawful-good?