slicker NPC communication

[Yalzin]

I\'ve done a search and this was brought up quite a while ago but it seems no solution was suggested. Well here\'s my idea:

Instead of doing ridiculous amounts of typing trying to find out what your supposed to type in order to get instructions for the quest (which is very frustrating as clumsy typers like me almost always make a mistake and have to type out the whole thing again because the NPC doesn\'t understand), surely it would be much easier, and save everyone a lot of stress if when you targeted an NPC and clicked \"talk\" or whatever, a list of the different lines of conversation appears (like in great point and click advertures of the past such as the \"Monkey Island\" games). This way there is much more scope for interesting conversations with them and you save yourself ripping out your hair with frustration.

This would be very simple to implement and I would really like to see it in future releases.

[Icefalcon]

Why degrade to that? Its much better how it is now than all the other games\' options talk system. It gives the quests a much more realistic spin to it, it feels like you are actually having a conversation with the NPC. If you are a clumbsy typer, then you need the practice

[Abemore]

No, I have never agreed with typing to NPC\'s and I never will.

[Typhorean]

They just need to improve the *range* of questions which NPCs respond to.  I mean, you could ask the exact same question in different words and if the devs didn\'t think about stating it that way, well, you\'re S.O.L.

They *could* put in synonyms (I think that\'s the term).  Where all words that equate to the same meaning can be interchangable and long as the structure is roughly correct.
Today\'s system:
\"Where did the robber come from?\"
\"Huh?\"
...Shit.
\"Where did the thief go?\"
\"You talk funny.\"
...SHIT.
\"Where bandit, plx?\"
\"I saw him go to the south.\"
FINALLY!

[Abemore]

I don\'t believe NPC\'s can be made artificially intelligent enough to react properly to normal human speech.

People always say something that NPC\'s don\'t understand.

[Xanaroth]

i totally agree... typing yourself when in conversation with npc is just NOT going to work.

there was a small quest some time ago, tough the devs deleted it. But there you could try and talk to the npc by typing yourself. I have typed at least 20 lines, all saying the same before the npc finally understood what i was saying.... well.... not really.... it responded, but it still wasn\'t the right answer. It took me about 1 hour untill i finally made a correct sentence that the npc understood that gave me some more info that finally was usefull.... it was booring as hell.
it was just like mentioned before. i used a different word, and the npc didn\'t understand again and again and again and.... i got bored and let the quest be.

tough if you have pre-made questions/answers it will need less programming code, it is easier to handle, and you dont get bored by the \"i dont understand\" because you misspelled 1 word or because you used a different word or some words more(because you were asking formally for example) and thus didn\'t match the programming. You would also get your answers more easilly, tough before a question is \"unlocked\" you would have to ask something different first. So you start with 2 or 3 questions like \"what is your name\" \"how are you\" \"i am looking for a quest\" or so.
Just that a converstation isn\'t:
you: \"what do you want\"
it: \"this bla bla bla that\"
you: \"ok\"

but more something like
you: \"hi there\"
it; \"hi\"
you: \"how are you today?\"
it: \"not so good, we were robbed\"
- and then you would have a question unlocked like \"what happend?\" or so, and the conversation easlilly builds itself up piece by piece.

[Yalzin]

Thats exactly what I mean. If new areas of conversation were unlocked gradually it would make talking to the NPCs much neater and more interesting.

I\'m sorry to say that typing like that is more realistic is tripe because you generally only say something once to someone, and you usually only ever have to repeat things once, whereas with these NPCs you have to repeat things 10+ times before you get a response. It\'s like talking to someone with no-ears, your better off not doing the quests in the first place.

[hook]

This is one of the things I LOVE about PlaneShift - when it\'ll be done you won\'t be able to tell an NPC from a player :] ...you\'ll talk to them both equally ...beat that in a MMORPG!

I always found it wierd that players were roleplaying and talking \"lolz j00 n00bz ...pwnz0r!!\" while being a high-class elven cleric in the \"middle ages\" (not PS) O_o ...and that the NPCs, while they\'re in this world also people just as players are, can only understand those 3 sentances you can click on ...never know how come I couldn\'t ask a sailor about the wind and the weather, or were a certain ship was, or even an inhabitant where the main square lay. o_O ...that\'s what I\'d like to see in PS :]

Of course the AI of the NPCs at the current stage is very simple, but I think once they get intelligent, it\'ll be a very nice feature! :] ...which would put us up in front of other MMORPGs - Ha!

[Icefalcon]

Originally posted by Typhorean
They just need to improve the *range* of questions which NPCs respond to.  I mean, you could ask the exact same question in different words and if the devs didn\'t think about stating it that way, well, you\'re S.O.L.

They will improve this in CB. You can\'t judge the system right now because its not completed yet...

[Taurenthefirst]

i love this system. its not that hard to talk to the npc\'s unless your a moron, even right now with their limited ai. i usually get what i want to know after the 2nd or third try. i think it is so much more fun and realistic than that stupid click what you want to say junk they have on games like spoonscape.

[Yalzin]

Originally posted by hook
This is one of the things I LOVE about PlaneShift - when it\'ll be done you won\'t be able to tell an NPC from a player :] ...you\'ll talk to them both equally ...beat that in a MMORPG!

That is just not going to happen. It has been proven in experiments where a human has to talk to two poeple and one advanced AI program (by typing and without seeing them), and the person always identifies the computer. Yes i agrre it would be great if this was possible, but it\'s not, and until it is we should stick to methods where you can actually have an interesting and productive conversation with an NPC.

You\'ll only ever be able to chat about what the NPC has been programmed to tell you, so isn\'t it far easier to not pretend that this NPC is a human character (which you will instantly be able to tell it wasn\'t anyway) and communicate with it in a way that is simple and least time-consuming? Yes i think so.

[hook]

Originally posted by Yalzin

Originally posted by hook
This is one of the things I LOVE about PlaneShift - when it\'ll be done you won\'t be able to tell an NPC from a player :] ...you\'ll talk to them both equally ...beat that in a MMORPG!

That is just not going to happen. It has been proven in experiments where a human has to talk to two poeple and one advanced AI program (by typing and without seeing them), and the person always identifies the computer. Yes i agrre it would be great if this was possible, but it\'s not, and until it is we should stick to methods where you can actually have an interesting and productive conversation with an NPC.

You\'ll only ever be able to chat about what the NPC has been programmed to tell you, so isn\'t it far easier to not pretend that this NPC is a human character (which you will instantly be able to tell it wasn\'t anyway) and communicate with it in a way that is simple and least time-consuming? Yes i think so.

i strongly disagree ...i agree that it won\'t be perfect for quite some time - but you have to keep in mind that (if all goes well) PlaneShift won\'t stop developing ever ...so, when the devs will learn more and more about AI the NPCs will get smarter and smarter.

it being impossible? far from it! ...ever heard the statement that \"512KB will be the maximum amount of memory that a computer will ever need\"? ...do you see a PC (yet alone a super-server, bladerack or beowulf cluster) running less then 2MB ram? ...even a telephone has more memory now. would you believe it 25 years ago? ...guess not ...neither would you that you could carry with you and use your telephone and computer.

just have a little faith :]

[Icefalcon]

Originally posted by Taurenthefirst
i love this system. its not that hard to talk to the npc\'s unless your a moron, even right now with their limited ai. i usually get what i want to know after the 2nd or third try. i think it is so much more fun and realistic than that stupid click what you want to say junk they have on games like spoonscape.

Exactly what I think  More fun, and more realistic. Maybe the NPCs will never be able to compete with real people, but that isn\'t the point. This topic is about what is better: the way it is now? or runescape\'s way...

[Yalzin]

Originally posted by hook
i strongly disagree ...i agree that it won\'t be perfect for quite some time - but you have to keep in mind that (if all goes well) PlaneShift won\'t stop developing ever ...so, when the devs will learn more and more about AI the NPCs will get smarter and smarter.

it being impossible? far from it! ...ever heard the statement that \"512KB will be the maximum amount of memory that a computer will ever need\"? ...do you see a PC (yet alone a super-server, bladerack or beowulf cluster) running less then 2MB ram? ...even a telephone has more memory now. would you believe it 25 years ago? ...guess not ...neither would you that you could carry with you and use your telephone and computer.

just have a little faith :]

So you\'re suggesting that the current system should be kept in the hope that in 25 years we will be able to hold a conversation with one of the NPCs?? Thats nuts. Have you any idea how complex the human brain is? Computers won\'t be able to even get near emulating that for a very long time!!! So in the meantime why should we all have to put up with the current trial and error system of typing hundreds of sentences until the NPC reckognises one??

And Icefalcon if your idea of fun is trying to communicate with something you know is not a human character, yet you still have to try and communicate with it in the same way, then . . . . . well your weird And no way is that more realistic, since when do people say \"either my hearing isn\'t working or you\'re not making sense\" thousands of times to you???

[zinder]

AFAIK the system the devs use can produce fairly believealbe  behavior. If im not mistaken they use a approach similar to this guys http://www.alicebot.org/index.html
Try it out.
It depends mainly on the size of the patternbase. And im sure it will impove greatly over the time for PS. Ie the more you try, the more examples the devs will get, how one can ask the question. Those the devs find correct, will be added as patterns to trigger the answer. In result each iteration of the NPCs will get better.
 So in 25 years, even in 5, this system will be very good. Im pretty sure it wont be a simulation of the human brain, but it dont need to. It is enough if it can simulate the talking behavior of a human for a limited number of themes.