I'm leaving

[tygerwilde]

to tygerwilde: I\'m one of the best programmer\'s in my class

you know, whenever I see something like that, it just makes me think \"that is almost the most ignorant thing someone can say\" yet someone always comes along a few weeks later with something even worse...

I have to ask along the same lines as elscouta, what is your class?  class of 2014?

[Levski]

2014?  That would make him....

hmm..

in 2nd grade!

to tangerine: Hey be nice or wait until you period is over.

I can see that you would have worked so  well with the team.

to Venge: and what is in the comments most of the time.... (for the people that don\'t know, I\'ll tell that it isn\'t much, at least most of the time nothing helpfull)

And you\'ve looked at all the thousands of comments?  Give me a break.  Besides, you have to work together as a team with the rest of the developers, hence you should have asked if you didn\'t understand a comment.

to RussianVodka: /* blaat */ comments out blaat, so this wat you can span multiple lines

Glad you\'re here to tell us these things and you read the posts in the thread you made   .

And you should put a check on your ego.  You won\'t get far in life if it\'s that big.

[Fextina]

I believe kronon raises some interesting points.

I fetched CB from CVS a couple of days ago, I still can\'t get it to work (a GCC/SUSE problem, not a PS problem). So I figured I take a look at the structure.

Well, for something as HUGE as this project, I\'d expected to see some sort of organization tree that links the _major_ classes togeather. That is, how the different componenets of the project blend togeather. This would make things _much_ easier for any prospective developer, for s/he can gain some insight into structure of the game.

Now, for documenation, I looked in the docs directory to find a few text files (todo, credits..etc). I expected to find the Doxygen API there with some hierarichal trees on the classes and their relations. Well, I found none.

How do I get it the API? I go and visit the website, look around, go to \"Help Us\" section, and couldn\'t find much there. I visited the \"recruitment\" page, and some tips on developing for PS, but I can\'t find the API.

I look for README file in the main directory for PS, and there is none.

Nevermind, is there a Doxyfile somewhere so I can generate some API? I couldn\'t find any.

So no wonder that some prospective developers can get intimidated a bit, but I\'m not just going to give up yet. Actually, I\'m not going to ask for any tasks until I understand PS/CS and feel comfortable with them.

[tygerwilde]

Yes levski, that\'s exactly what I meant. if his maturity level is any indication, that would be right about the perfect age. I know I shouldn\'t say things like that. it\'s flaming and a little ignorant, but,you know, it kinda drives me nuts that he gets on here acting like he knows better than the programmers, trying to make claims that what they are doing is inferior, and the fact that he has NO evidence to say otherwise makes it that much worse.

(sorry for long sentances, but I\'ve gone over it, and it\'s not fragmented... I have a tendancy to do that)

he makes a connection between CS and the delay of CB, but that really means nothing. I\'ve been beta testing games for a while and I know about delays. I mean look at Star Wars galaxies, released more than a year after their projected release date. It was delayed more than five times, and it was still released with less than half of it\'s planned content. I didn\'t buy it because player based housing was left out, among other things, and from what I hear about it\'s stability, I\'m glad I made that choice. It all came down to Sony Verant\'s deadlines, which really sucks. If they had had the time, they could have made a very good game, and most likely the top seller of all time. now, it\'s just another of the bad star wars games, and there are more than enough of those...

[tygerwilde]

oops, forgot my point...
I would much rather there be huge delays, resulting in a magnificently produced game, over a release tommorrow that wouldn\'t satisfy a total gimp (kronon maybe)

I can only say, if the programmers need 2 weeks or two years to produce CB, they can damn well take it, and I will be waiting patiently

[acraig]

Originally posted by Fextina
I believe kronon raises some interesting points.


Well, for something as HUGE as this project, I\'d expected to see some sort of organization tree that links the _major_ classes togeather. That is, how the different componenets of the project blend togeather. This would make things _much_ easier for any prospective developer, for s/he can gain some insight into structure of the game.

I\'ve been looking for a good tool to do this.  As of yet I have not found a good cross platform one.  Can you suggest any software that we can use to develop these class relationships?

Now, for documenation, I looked in the docs directory to find a few text files (todo, credits..etc). I expected to find the Doxygen API there with some hierarichal trees on the classes and their relations. Well, I found none.

How do I get it the API? I go and visit the website, look around, go to \"Help Us\" section, and couldn\'t find much there. I visited the \"recruitment\" page, and some tips on developing for PS, but I can\'t find the API.

The compiling.txt in /docs gives a fairly wide range of tips for building in different environments.  You can find the doxygen page here ( this is still being updated as we go so all things are not *fully* documented yet )

So no wonder that some prospective developers can get intimidated a bit, but I\'m not just going to give up yet. Actually, I\'m not going to ask for any tasks until I understand PS/CS and feel comfortable with them.

Yes, that is totally understandable.  If you have any suggestions on how to do this then we can certainly try.

[Winterheaven]

Originally posted by Fextina
Well, for something as HUGE as this project, I\'d expected to see some sort of organization tree that links the _major_ classes togeather. That is, how the different componenets of the project blend togeather. This would make things _much_ easier for any prospective developer, for s/he can gain some insight into structure of the game.

Thank you for that point of view. It runs in the direction what I would say about PS and CS. I couldn\'t really find some closed working areas, which fits together through a thin, but defined border. That results in the waiting states, acraig mentioned in another thread... when he needs some improvements and has to talk with CS team and then wait and hope the best.

Btw, even the posts of kronon sounds a little bit arrogant, every programmer should be open to any critical word... often helps more than the countless cheers to PS, numerous kisses to the devs and the statement, that you wait until \"it is done\". It is MY opinion, that LOC should not be mentioned as the quality of PS. That makes it not an impartial statement. I would only throw some additional ideas in the pot of coding.

And IMHO it would be a good decision to make usage of CS only throug one or two simple, clean defined interfaces... makes PS independent of the renderer, even switchable at later stage... and at least profiling/debugging can be done individual for every part. The other thing is a (perhaps) missing segmentation of single program parts. I saw the big picture somewhere in the \"documentation\" or website... but I couldn\'t it verify in the code. But it is absolutely imaginable - I already said it - that I am not enough knowledged for such a BIG project.

br, Winterheaven.

[tangerine]

Originally posted by Levski
So basically, C++ isn\'t in any way in danger of extinction because of C#.  That\'s good.

Not extinction, but C# will probably eat considerable part of C++\'s pie.

[Vengeance]

In general, the more knowledgeable people are who review our code the nicer they think it is.  If someone cannot understand code, there are two possibilities as to why:  a) The code is overly complex.  b) They have insufficient skill.

While I think there are some areas better than others in our code, most of the comments in here have not been about those sections, but instead have been very general comments about the complexity of CS.  Yes it is complex, but I\'d like to hear from you which parts you think you can take out.

The more you learn about CS, the more you will appreciate its structure.  It is very advanced C++ programming, however, not some class project, and you should not expect to pick it up instantly.

- Venge

[tangerine]

I agree that PS lacks a high-level overview of the code and it lacks comments in some areas.

On the other hand if this means fatal obstacle for someone, then I ask myself if that person has needed skills and/or patience to contribute.

[zinder]

Take a look at Poseidon from Gentleware. www.gentleware.com

Its in java and should on any system with a jvm. The free version cant reverse engineer and it is primary for java(code generation).

[Levski]

Originally posted by tangerine
Not extinction, but C# will probably eat considerable part of C++\'s pie.

I read somewhere that C# is about 80-90% based on C++.  So if you know C++, you wouldn\'t be that much worse off right?

But isn\'t that the whole thing about object-oriented programming?  That you don\'t have to look at all the lines of code?  I think that\'s what gets a lot of amateur programmers, they tend to look at it and say, \"Whoa,\" instead of looking at it piece by piece.  I know I used to do that.   )

[Fextina]

What\'s missing:

1. UML for class relations;

2. An overview from a lead developer on the different components of PS, what they do, and how they blend togeather.

Believe me, I\'m not asking this because I\'m lazy, but because this is what you do in almost any software project with this level of complexity.

The benefits:

1. Prospective developers can learn PS in a relatively shorter time span;

2. Prospective developers will ask _less_ questions and program _better_ once they have the proper documentation.

I took a look at the coding guide, very nice job. I have one more addition, it\'s a good idea that you make a requirtment that restricts developers from comitting any new classes/files unless they\'re fully documented.

Many developers like to \"hack\" and commit, and they \"promise\" to add documentation later. This is understandable, but for a project of this size, it\'s a bad policy. Some developers undermine the value of documentation and just \"keep hacking\".

My two cents.

[acraig]

Originally posted by Fextina
What\'s missing:

I took a look at the coding guide, very nice job. I have one more addition, it\'s a good idea that you make a requirtment that restricts developers from comitting any new classes/files unless they\'re fully documented.

Many developers like to \"hack\" and commit, and they \"promise\" to add documentation later. This is understandable, but for a project of this size, it\'s a bad policy. Some developers undermine the value of documentation and just \"keep hacking\".

My two cents.

In a more organized structure this is possible.  At one company I worked at you had to have a peer review before you checked in any code.  This makes sense in a well organized company where you can walk down to the next office and ask for a review and have it in a few minutes.  As you can imagine this is not really an option for PS.  However, if we try to get into the habbit of fully documenting stuff as we commit the documentation will get better.

[Cirque]

It would be a shame if some of the points raised are infact true and people are being stubborn. It would be more constructive to accept the faults and work on them.