Author Topic: From heros to zeros!  (Read 18388 times)

kbilik

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« Reply #135 on: May 26, 2004, 08:53:54 pm »
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Originally posted by TheTaintedSoul
 But consider the facts we know off, the proof of wmds was inaccurate, no wmds have been found so far. Considering that is it unlikely that there were no wmds?



Sigh... I guess that sarin nerve toxin that the insurgents detonated was not WMD? Check your facts please.

Sarin nerve bomb

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After 9/11 an attack on Iraq was more likely then before, it surprised me that the USA attacked Afghanistan and took so long before fighting war with Iraq. Also afghanistan was the only place where troops were busy with the war on terrorism.

If wmds are not intended to be used to threaten, why would they be a serious enough threat to start a war over?


Simple. Bin Laden and Al-Quida were widely known to be rooted in that area thanks to the Taliban extremist government. The case for Iraq took longer to decide - whether it was necessary to attack or not.

BTW, all your arguments about WMD not found are invalid. This sarin projectile raises the question of if even Saddam knew the extent of his WMD supply. The shell was unmarked - probably the sign was taken off by the Iraqi military. With the signs taken off, it\'d be pretty easy for the chemical weapon supply to be hidden in the thousands of tons of conventional shells of Saddam\'s armory. The intention was probably to hide the weapons.

One possibility. Still would be a threat though if unmarked shells were shipped to aid extremist factions. And remember, Iraq promised to destroy all WMD or it would be in violation of the armstice agreements it signed with the UN. Thus this sure doesn\'t help the naysayer\'s cause.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2004, 08:55:55 pm by kbilik »

TheTaintedSoul

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« Reply #136 on: May 26, 2004, 08:54:26 pm »
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Originally posted by kbilik
I guess a couple hundred billion dollars plus loss of life doesn\'t mean much to you? Great, with the world going deeper in poverty expect to see more extremists and fighting over resources. Get real - the effect of such an attack not only has an immediate impact, but it will funnel more money into the war machine that you want to stop.

Of course i do care about human lifes, why do you think im against the war on iraq? Of course the attack was a terrible thing. What does that money amount to? Is it mainly from the USA? If so the loss doesn\'t really add to terrorism. Its a huge amount true. But a human life means much more to me then plain dollar billes. Unfortunately you\'re right that this loss of money is not to be taken too lightly. But the economy recovered quite well from 9/11.
True the attack will funnel more money in the war machine as well as it created an environment where people were more ready to go to war. That brings me to the point i have, the attack though serieus should not mean that fear of terrorism is the leading factor in everydays life and politics. Causing very strict security, no private rights, abuse of human rights (perhaps guantomana bay).
Not that the situation in the USA is in such a desperate state, but when too concerned with terrorism the USA might throw away the things they are about. Democratic rights and such. The day that happens is the day the terrorists win the battle

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Great, but where does the money come from? From the hundreds of billions that went down the drain after these attacks? What happens when we leave Iraq and Afghanistan prematurely?
 
I dont want the USa  to leave iraq and afghanistan. That would be a huge mistake. But instead of having started the wars to those nations america should have used the money to improve the world.
Where to get the money from? Well the west is in a much better economic position then most nations. Im sure they can share a little of what they have. Europe gives more to aid then the USA does so it is possible.

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 (oh and don\'t single out the west, ok?).

What do you mean by that?
If your opponent is willing to die for his cause, he and you have the same goal set in mind.

kbilik

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« Reply #137 on: May 26, 2004, 09:05:12 pm »
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Originally posted by TheTaintedSoul
Of course i do care about human lifes, why do you think im against the war on iraq? Of course the attack was a terrible thing. What does that money amount to? Is it mainly from the USA? If so the loss doesn\'t really add to terrorism. Its a huge amount true. But a human life means much more to me then plain dollar billes. Unfortunately you\'re right that this loss of money is not to be taken too lightly. But the economy recovered quite well from 9/11.





That doesn\'t matter. Global disruptions like this one have a long term effect. Money that could have gone for improving conditions around the world at an accelerating rate would now be diverted. This is a chain reaction that has wide implications just as depressions during the 20s and 30s throughout the US and Europe led to a rise of fascism and then WW2, then the cold war, then to this sad situation of cold-war supported regimes destabilizing the world.

 
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That brings me to the point i have, the attack though serieus should not mean that fear of terrorism is the leading factor in everydays life and politics. Causing very strict security, no private rights, abuse of human rights (perhaps guantomana bay).   Not that the situation in the USA is in such a desperate state, but when too concerned with terrorism the USA might throw away the things they are about. Democratic rights and such. The day that happens is the day the terrorists win the battle



No, terrorism is the leading cause of concern as I explained earlier. It\'s effect has already caused disgruntled soldiers to commit abuse and Iraqis to drag burned contractors through the streets, hang them, saw off heads of civilians, etc. It is a chain reaction as I said that will not stop even when one side stops. It will only stop if both sides back down. The problem is when one side backs down, the other attacks in the moment of weakness. Reminds you of the cycle of mideast violence, eh?

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 (oh and don\'t single out the west, ok?). What do you mean by that?


I mean that the west wasn\'t the only one aiding dictatorships. The USSR can be considered as a historically major investor in war-like regimes. Not to mention every country to a lesser extent (funding indirectly to avoid direct confrontation).
« Last Edit: May 26, 2004, 09:08:05 pm by kbilik »

TheTaintedSoul

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« Reply #138 on: May 26, 2004, 09:11:55 pm »
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Originally posted by kbilik
BTW, all your arguments about WMD not found are invalid. This sarin projectile raises the question of if even Saddam knew the extent of his WMD supply.


Okay almost no wmds have been found. That better? :D

The fact remains the proof of the existence of the number of wmds the USA claimed there to be still is very limited about a year? now after the start of the war. One shell i hardly call a good reason for war. If a stockpile of those shells are found then ill admit im wrong about the existence of numerous wmds. As the link provided also says, they don\'t know if that is the only shell or not.
If your opponent is willing to die for his cause, he and you have the same goal set in mind.

SaintNuclear

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« Reply #139 on: May 26, 2004, 09:21:20 pm »
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Originally posted by TheTaintedSoul
But the economy recovered quite well from 9/11.

The economy is going worse and worse since before 9/11, and is still in a very bad shape.
Any recovery that was after 9/11 was nothing as it\'s still in a bad shape (and no, not better than when it was right after 9/11)
September 23rd, 2004 19:52:38 UTC
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kbilik

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« Reply #140 on: May 26, 2004, 09:21:35 pm »
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Originally posted by TheTaintedSoul
The fact remains the proof of the existence of the number of wmds the USA claimed there to be still is very limited about a year? now after the start of the war. One shell i hardly call a good reason for war. If a stockpile of those shells are found then ill admit im wrong about the existence of numerous wmds. As the link provided also says, they don\'t know if that is the only shell or not.


I fully agree on that point. One shell is no justification. However, it does leave the question open of more WMDs. The problem is - when do they decide to stop looking. Heck the UN looked for 12 years and missed this Sarin warhead. I wonder how long it would take before we get a definite answer.

TheTaintedSoul

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« Reply #141 on: May 26, 2004, 09:36:22 pm »
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Originally posted by kbilik
That doesn\'t matter. Global disruptions like this one have a long term effect. Money that could have gone for improving conditions around the world at an accelerating rate would now be diverted.

Psychology speaking you could be right (what i explained about letting fear get the upper hand). Economically speaking you\'re saying that the money is being diverted and therefore has a negative impact? Cause the effects of 9/11 on economy have faded away by now.
Im afraid you could get to be right about worsening of worldwide conditions. This is not something thats completely out of our control however.

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No, terrorism is the leading cause of concern as I explained earlier. It\'s effect has already caused disgruntled soldiers to commit abuse and Iraqis to drag burned contractors through the streets, hang them, saw off heads of civilians, etc. It is a chain reaction as I said that will not stop even when one side stops. It will only stop if both sides back down. The problem is when one side backs down, the other attacks in the moment of weakness. Reminds you of the cycle of mideast violence, eh?

I think the acts of soldiers have more to do with human nature and cirumstances then with terrorism. The prison experiment had very similair results. You and i would probably have acted the same way.

It does remind me of the middle east yes. The israel - palestinian situation shows violence is not the way to deal with the problem. Building a wall works for israel, but we can\'t do the same thing. The problem is the eye for an eye attitude. One acts the other responds even more. Very human, if i hit you softly, you will hit me to retaliate thinking its just as hard, but you will hit me harder. Then i will hit you again etc.
By responding to violence of terrorists with violence the only result we get is more violence. The war in afghanistan and iraq caused a growth of terrorists and made the decentralised terrorists even more dangerous.

Naturally they will keep attacking even when we do nothing but resorting to violence because we cant handle it leads to nothing. Anyway attacking nations is a dead end. The USA hasn\'t got the finances to attack another nation having wmds or terrorists. Enough of those countries still exist. How will the USA continue its way of dealing with the war on terrorism?
If your opponent is willing to die for his cause, he and you have the same goal set in mind.

TheTaintedSoul

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« Reply #142 on: May 26, 2004, 09:54:29 pm »
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Originally posted by SaintNuclear
The economy is going worse and worse since before 9/11, and is still in a very bad shape.

This due to normal recession like that in the 80\'s and not 9/11. This is quite a normal phenomena that happens periodically. Economically good periods are followed by recessions. Economy will improve again (and maybe is already).

Quote
Originally posted by kbilik
I fully agree on that point. One shell is no justification. However, it does leave the question open of more WMDs. The problem is - when do they decide to stop looking. Heck the UN looked for 12 years and missed this Sarin warhead. I wonder how long it would take before we get a definite answer.


The USA should certainly continou look for wmds. They do have an advantage to the UN of having Iraq in their control so there are no problems with cover ups (besides the possible ones at the start of war)

One sarin warhead is easy to miss isn\'t it? I mean suppose its the only wmd then what are the chances the UN had of finding it?

Anyway the iraqis did hide something :)
[afbeelding]
This plane was found in the last war. Personally i think they misinterpreted the manual. :D
« Last Edit: May 26, 2004, 10:50:23 pm by TheTaintedSoul »
If your opponent is willing to die for his cause, he and you have the same goal set in mind.

tygerwilde

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« Reply #143 on: May 26, 2004, 10:01:37 pm »
did anyone ever realise that the US broke their own  laws? the law in america is that the prosecution has burden of proof.
we laid claims against sadaam, yet we didn\'t prove him guilty before acting against him. looks like we\'re going by the law of guilty until proven innocent to me

yes, I believe he had a number of WMDs, not nearly an amount that would be dangerous, but he had them. but we didn\'t have the right to go in there until undeniable proof was obtained.
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« Reply #144 on: May 26, 2004, 11:52:06 pm »
tyger you should know by now that major powers are allowed to make laws and break laws with no consequences to their actions! Only because no one would able to stop them...

kbilik

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« Reply #145 on: May 26, 2004, 11:52:24 pm »
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Originally posted by tygerwilde
yes, I believe he had a number of WMDs, not nearly an amount that would be dangerous, but he had them. but we didn\'t have the right to go in there until undeniable proof was obtained.


Isn\'t 12 years enough time for the UN to get some results? They failed to find either 1) anything or 2) Proof of destruction of the 80s chemical weapons that the US gave him. What do you expect the US to do after waiting for 12 years and under such pressure and threats?

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Originally posted by TheTaintedSoul Psychology speaking you could be right (what i explained about letting fear get the upper hand). Economically speaking you\'re saying that the money is being diverted and therefore has a negative impact? Cause the effects of 9/11 on economy have faded away by now.
Im afraid you could get to be right about worsening of worldwide conditions. This is not something thats completely out of our control however


No, I\'m not speaking psychologically. I am talking about deficit spending where the funds for certain helpful programs are instead put into efforts to rebuild infrastructure, pay insurance of property damage, pay for lost time, life, delays, lost investments, etc etc. No, the economic effects of 9/11 have not faded away as there is still no replacement for the amount of lost life, property, and company migrations that these attacks have brought. A lowering of investor confidence by a vaste percentage isn\'t helping either.

These losses will snowball and influence in many subtle ways the financial landscape of the US and world.

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Naturally they will keep attacking even when we do nothing but resorting to violence because we cant handle it leads to nothing. Anyway attacking nations is a dead end. The USA hasn\'t got the finances to attack another nation having wmds or terrorists. Enough of those countries still exist. How will the USA continue its way of dealing with the war on terrorism?


The option if not hunting out these organizations is unacceptable. What happens if they strike another financially important infrastructure on the scale of 9/11? What then - do you expect a whimper and no response?

As for the US not having the finances to attack - that argument doesn\'t prevent deficit spending. DOn\'t underestimate the lengths the US will go to retailate if another 9/11 happens. I surely hope not.

SaintNuclear

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« Reply #146 on: May 27, 2004, 12:33:42 am »
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Originally posted by TheTaintedSoul
Cause the effects of 9/11 on economy have faded away by now.

Not really.
Let\'s say the US was investing time and money on developping their educational system (good idea, they might want to do that...).
Then the 9/11 attack happened, and the US had to take as many resources as it can to fight terrorism, make a quest on finding Bin Laden, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
The developping of the educational system was stopped, and it\'s slowly degrading to it\'s normal state (you can\'t just \'pause\' a development. if you stop it, it starts degrading back).
The US finds Bin Laden, finishes the war in Afghanistan, Iraq, and a few more countries.
Meanwhile, the educational system becomes even worse than it is today.
All the time and money they spent on developping the educational system was wasted.
Due to the US\' crappy educational system, technological improvements happen only outside of the US.
Because of that, major companies that have something to do with technology move their main offices and branches to Europe.
The ship that ships the office desks of Microsoft sinks after a bunch of crazy \'nix fanatics take over it.
Microsoft bankrupts.
Companies lose alot of time and money on learning how to use Unix.
The world\'s economy goes even worse.
Japan goes fubar and degrades to anarchy after discovering an unrepairable bug in Unix that prevents users from watching Hentai movies.
Japan-freaks around the world torch western monuments.
The economical depression deepens.
Mailmen around the world go postal. The only postal office that survives is located in Siberia.
The US sees that as an economical oppertunity and invades.
Russia retaliates with nukes.
The US re-retaliates.
The European Union is pissed off so they nuke both.

...I could go and on, it\'s kinda fun. But I think you got the point. Even if the stock markets have stabilized after 9/11, it doesn\'t mean it\'s economical impact doesn\'t matter anymore. And like in my example, it does affect human life :rolleyes:
September 23rd, 2004 19:52:38 UTC
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TheTaintedSoul

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my view on the iraq/afghanistan wars
« Reply #147 on: May 27, 2004, 12:49:09 pm »
Its become much longer then intended :(. Flame me, burn the piece to the ground, ignore it because its too long but here is my view of the wars and process to it.

Since the attack of 9/11 and the speeches of Bush (you\'re with us or against us, it seems im against then) i expected the USA to go to war with iraq (technically continou the war). It surprised me somewhat that afghanistan was attacked first.
When the US gave its ultimatum to the taliban it was my opinion that they didn\'t give the taliban enough time to discuss it. The US seemed eager to retaliate on afghanistan.
Because i doubted the US to win the war easy without it getting into guerilla warfare like russia had to face i was slightly opposed to it. Killing afghanistans because of a terrorist attack didn\'t seem right.
I was wrong though, the northern alliance was a great help to the US. Still however it remains to be seen if afghanistan becomes a stable democratic nation and doesnt plunge again in a war.

Starting to feel relieved and believing Iraq was not second on the retaliaton list my hope was wrong. From the moment the usa wanted the un to look for wmds the iraqis surely had war had been decided upon. Later i heard that bush wanted to attack iraq first when 9/11 had just happened.
When nothing was found despite the US claimed to know locations of wmds yet wasnt very helpfull giving them to the un. Also when blix made a report about the wmds the usa wanted it to be more negative about the wmds, the paper wasn\'t claiming precense of wmds enough.  
This strengthened my opinion that the US was only using the wmds as an excuse to go to war wether they were present or not. This isn\'t the first time for the US. In the first gulf war (that i agree with) a whole story was fabricated about kuwait infants brutally being murdered.
Then more reasons were given to go to war, like the unlikely connection between osama bin laden and saddam. Also the intelligence of the us and uk claimed the precense and serious threat of wmds. Later those were at least considered as misleading.
When trying to get a UN resolution for war, the usa presented \'prove\' which seemed far fetched most of the time and could hardly be called proove.
The bribing and threatening of backward countries to a certain vote by giving more or less aid was the lowest act of all.
Then not getting enough support the US decided to go to war anyway, ignoring criticism in most of the world. Again like with afghanistan i feared a guerilla war especially in baghdad, again i was wrong. Still it amazes me that the us soldiers had so little casualties. Perhaps what i hoped for, iraqi soldiers massively surrendering, and came true was the reason for this.
But until now having Iraq under control the US has found almost no wmds they claimed there were. First it was said that the wmds had been moved to syria. Later the many exegarations and flaws in the documents appeared and the american government admitted the wmds probably were not there.
When bagdhad fell clearly the iraqi people were glad to have been liberated. Unfortunately the few that fight the soldiers now could mess up the whole proces and leave iraq not in a much better state. Especially if the american soldiers dont become less triggerhappy. Too many innocent iraqis get unnecisarily get killed. The british soldiers perform better.
Furthermore its a shame and mistake the defence of the usa  instead of foreign matters got the task of rebuilding iraq.
The usa seems to be the first to claim responsibility for positive events but with negative events there is much trouble admitting it, most of the time its denied, in other cases no responsability is claimed. Like saying that its not the fault of the us that the soldiers acted like they did, thats something you get in a war. Forgetting the war is caused by the us.

so what is my opinion? With almost no proof I believe there were at most few wmds. Even with wmds i consider Iraq no threat to its neighbours. Nothing is to be gained in israel, and attacking other countries would mean the end of the regime of saddam.
The terrorist connection i don\'t buy. No the only good reason to go to war with iraq would be liberating the iraqis of oppression. But im still opposed, because i believe the cost of the war in human lifes outweighs the cost in lifes when not acting too much.
How high is the death toll by now, adding both iraqis and soldiers? Holland has 1 dead soldier and killed 1 iraqi = 2. Is it thousands? Tens of thousands?

And instead of going to war the usa could have used the money helping people in other nations as well.

Third, war is a very unpredictive chaotic mostly out of control process where most of what comes from it is damaging. The acts of american soldiers is one example of this.

Whatever you think of this war, the usa can\'t continou attacking countries anyway. The economic price is too high. Ruining your economy to retaliate and feel better is plain dumb. And many dictatorial hostile countries with wmds still exist. Iraq was only one of many. Does Saudia arabie have wmds? Its not hostile i know but do they?
Saudy arabia is one of the nations where the usa still supports a dictatorial regime. Most terrorists come from that nation. Strange isnt it, that people living there don\'t like the us?

Why do i think us wanted to attack iraq?
1) extend its influence in the middle east
2) be less dependant of saudi arabia
3) bush wanted to continou where his father left (its personal)
4) to liberate the iraqis

why i don\'t think the war was raged?
for oil, though the us government did talk about letting iraq pay for the war with oil and the american businesses are the main ones rebuilding the country

What else was i wrong about?
I believed Turky to invade northern iraq, fortunately they were wise enough not to even when us asked their help
« Last Edit: May 27, 2004, 01:04:35 pm by TheTaintedSoul »
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DepthBlade

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« Reply #148 on: May 27, 2004, 04:15:42 pm »
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Originally posted by TheTaintedSoul
Its become much longer then intended :(. Flame me, burn the piece to the ground, ignore it because its too long but here is my view of the wars and process to it.


Don\'t worry we have had very few people get flamed in this thread and the ones who did flame got shot down and stopped :P State your opinion with no fear!

Your reasons for why he attack Iraq!

1)extend influence in middle east -probally true
2)be less dependant on saudi arabia (What do you mean by this? How were they dependant on them?)
3) Continue his fathers work- Maybe
4) To liberate Iraqs - DING DONG WRONG!!!

Taldor

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« Reply #149 on: May 27, 2004, 04:25:38 pm »
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Originally posted by DepthBlade
2)be less dependant on saudi arabia (What do you mean by this? How were they dependant on them?)

Never heard of OIL?