From heros to zeros!

[SaintNuclear]

Originally posted by TheTaintedSoul
Having changing votes in elections is i think a good thing, no government should stay for a long period. Actually i consider it as one of the main reasons why democracy works.

Democracy doesn\'t work, if it\'d work the world wouldn\'t be so peanutted up.
Why democracy doesn\'t work? Because the masses are stupid.
Even if there are smart, intelligent, and knowledgeable people, it doesn\'t matter - the masses are stupid.

That\'s why the world is like it is today.

[tygerwilde]

A message to americans!

Love your country. hate your government! that is all

[Monketh]

Originally posted by tygerwilde
actually, an audit wouldn\'t change a thing for me. I bring in more than I contribute because I don\'t earn enough for the government to take out taxes, therefore I get a refund of all paid taxes. I also get EIC for both of my children, roughly 800 total extra.

and it\'s entirely legal.

it\'s all a matter of unemployment, I don\'t actively try to welch off of the government, but this area is really bad employment wise. I can\'t keep a job myself, due to a learning disability, and my wife can\'t find a job locally that pays more than 10k a year. right now she\'s working at mcdonalds, about 20 hours a week. we\'re living off her $200-$300 a month, and our 350 welfare. not to mention the 3k that I borrowed for school. school loans are untaxable. found that out beginning of the year. when we get out of school, we\'re going to move to either california or New York, where there are jobs and become taxpayers

Ah, now that\'s a cow of a different color.

I agree entirely with SaintNuclear about the inherent uselessness of democracy.  Unfortunately, you can never have more than one term at a time of benevolent dictatorship.

[kbilik]

No WMD eh? I wonder where that sarin nerve bomb came from. Sure, its only one shell, but I wonder where the insurgents got their hands on it and if there is any more.

And we still haven\'t learned what happened to all those chemical weapons that the US gave to Iraq during the 80\'s (As part of an anti-Iran policy during the Iraq-Iran war 1980-1988 ). Just because the UN didnt find anything did not mean it did not exist in country. I would think it would be in Iraq\'s favor to at least give records on how they allegedly destroyed this supply.

BTW, not saying that this war was begun exlusively because of threats from WMD. There were many other reasons - such as:

1. Iraq financing suicide bombers against Israel (Hey, if they do it against one enemy, what prevents them from doing it to us mentality)

2.Iraq Harboring terrorists like Abu Abbas

3. Faulty intelligence that probably overstated the threat.

4. Reports of severe abuse and torture committed by the regime (probably more a political motive to make the US appear benevolent rather than the real reason for action)

To name a few. I\'m sure oil was a factor but if the US used oil for personal wealth rather for using it to \"rebuild\" Iraq, I\'m sure it would be all over the media right now. Anyone have any reports on the current oil revenues of occupied Iraq and where the money goes?

[kyp14]

Originally posted by Monketh
Kyp14: You don\'t read the american newpaper editorial pages do you?

being an Australian no I don\'t read them, although I would if I could.

basically I didn\'t mean only critise, I just think that in genral Americans need to do it more, being the most powerful country in the world not to critise what they do could and would eventually result in a disaster.

[tygerwilde]

now i\'m not defending sadaam, but read this thing carefully

The former top U.S. weapons inspector in Iraq, David Kay, said it was possible the shell was an old relic overlooked when Saddam said he had destroyed such weapons in the mid-1990s.

I think sadaam needed to be removed, but I don\'t think america had any responcibility doing it without any kind of evidence against sadaam beforehand.  yes he was commiting crimes against his people, but the responcibility to deal with that lies within Iraq it\'self, not in an outside influence.

If the people had been revolting en mass, and asked for aid from america that would have been a different story. but we went in there, tore down their leader, forced our governmental system on them, all without knowing whether the people desired it or not.

what makes anyone think that can put us in the right?

[Socrates Demise]

Just my two cents on the photos that started all of this...

We are in a war... in a war you often need to kill... if there is no desire to kill the enemy there is no need for a war?  To those of us on our couch watching this on cnn it is easy to say that they should not be smiling above a dead person.  

Imagine yourself there and you are seeing you friends killed by the enemy.  Would you not feel a certain amount of relief or even joy to see what could possibly be the corps of the one who killed one close to you?

The soldiers are trained to only kill these who are trying to kill them... this dose not ALLWAYS happen, mistakes can be made.

When it is kill or be killed you are much less disturbed by the death of someone who is trying to hurt you than one who is trying to help you.

[SaintNuclear]

Originally posted by tygerwilde
we went in there, tore down their leader, forced our governmental system on them, all without knowing whether the people desired it or not.

I just want to add to that.
A few new countries surfaced in the end of WWI (or II) from all those treaties. Some of them were forced into democracy.
These countries that were forced into deomcracy had alot of problems, and needed international aid.
Other countries, that started as monarchies, were doing just fine and changed to democracy later.
Right now, Iraq needs alot of rebuilding. A democracy in such a situation will only bring them even lower than they are now during the war.


---

Originally posted by tygerwilde
We are in a war... in a war you often need to kill... if there is no desire to kill the enemy there is no need for a war?

Soldiers with a desire to kill are serial killers that get awards from their country instead of a trial.
Soldiers shouldn\'t have a desire to kill, because then they\'ll do just that - kill.
However, a soldier that can kill, and is mentally to kill, will kill only when he have to.

No one should have a desire to kill, especially not someone that got training and weapons.

Imagine yourself there and you are seeing you friends killed by the enemy. Would you not feel a certain amount of relief or even joy to see what could possibly be the corps of the one who killed one close to you?
[...]
When it is kill or be killed you are much less disturbed by the death of someone who is trying to hurt you than one who is trying to help you.

Let\'s not forget that these soldiers were stationed in a prison. Not in some bunker deep behind enemey lines that was cut from reinforcements and supplies.
They probebly never saw anyone dying (aside from Iraqies, maybe).
And in any case, they\'re not in a \'kill or be killed\' situation!

So why? Why would they do that? Because they can? No, that\'s not enough. Because they were threatened? No, they wouldn\'t torture in that case, they\'ll just shoot.
The only reason I can think of is that they actually believe that Iraq had anything to do with the attack on the WTC. Something that they probebly heard while watchong Fox, or all those times that Bush said it.

If they really did torture these people because of disinformation, something is totally screwed up.

The soldiers are trained to only kill these who are trying to kill them... this dose not ALLWAYS happen, mistakes can be made.

Torturing someone by mistake? That\'s like cheating on your wife, and saying \"oh, it was dark and I accidently tripped and fell on her\".

[Socrates Demise]

Now I\'m probably going to come out of this sounding like a complete idiot... (That\'s what I get for not reading the whole story) I saw the images and my knee jerk reaction was they wouldn\'t be doing that unless they themselves had suffered.

But now that I have read the article a I begin to think of something I saw on the Discovery Channel.  Researchers gathered a group of volunteers and split them into two groups, one group of captors and the other captives.  The test almost went out of control.  I wish I could remember what the name was.  It was scary, these normal people off the streets becoming complete monsters and nearly killing one another.  

I almost feel like removing my last post but I will let it stand to remind me to get the facts before I post my emotions.

[Uyaem]

Originally posted by Socrates Demise
Imagine yourself there and you are seeing you friends killed by the enemy.  Would you not feel a certain amount of relief or even joy to see what could possibly be the corps of the one who killed one close to you?

Probably. But sadistically torturing an unarmed enemy (talking about individuals here) to death or humiliate him boundlessly is sick and wrong. Even animals kill only if it is needed, they do not take pleasure in inflicting pain!

Again, what is even more disturbing that it is now believed it was all permitted by the authorities responsible (General Sanchez openly admitted he allowed at least prohibition of sleep and forcing the POWs so stay in a cowered position, although now as it has caught the attention of the world he forbid that...).

EDIT: forgot to submit this post for a very long time, that\'s why I didn\'t refer to your 2nd post so far @Socrates Demise

[SaintNuclear]

Originally posted by Socrates Demise
Researchers gathered a group of volunteers and split them into two groups, one group of captors and the other captives.  The test almost went out of control.  I wish I could remember what the name was.  It was scary, these normal people off the streets becoming complete monsters and nearly killing one another.  

Yeah, I know about this research.
The people went so much into their roles that the test had to be stopped, and some were probebly sent into mental institutes.

Now I\'m probably going to come out of this sounding like a complete idiot...

Nah, don\'t feel bad.

[Ineluke]

Originally posted by SaintNuclear

Originally posted by Peeeevs
for oil??? HA i wish gas is not more than 2$ here in a place where its never ben more than 1.75 until the last 6 mouths

If you\'d bother reading the previous pages you\'d see that I said that saying the war was for oil is BS.

Originally posted by Monketh
Why do you think we went there then?

As I said earlier, the Omega Agency.

The Omega Agency?
I really hope that you are joking. I read the article that was linked to on this thread somwhere and um.... No.
This was an article posted on a conspiracy website from an unnamed author with no real supporting evidence.
Often when people read article on these conspiracy sites they fail to take the articles with the same amount of sketicism as the sites themselves ask people to take with other publishings. If you can provide more proof than that one article then I would be very interested to see it.

to Peeves: this is not meant as a personal attack but please read your messages befor posting them. They are not very readable.... or even coherent. I understand that english is not many peoples first language but you cant simply plug something into babelfish and expect it to be right.

As far as the oil thing goes America has an oil reserve to keep us at current levels of living for 30-50 years without ever drilling another drop. So why would we go through all the trouble of going to war for somthing we already have an abundance of.

We went to war because we felt threatened by Saddam, not because we wanted oil, not to free the people of Iraq (though that is a positive side effect) and not because of the Omega Agency.

I do believe Saddam had weapons of mass distruction.
As far as why they were not found, ask yourself this:
If I were a hated and public dictator and I knew that the most powerful country in the world was about to Invade because they knew I had WMD\'s what would I do?

I sell the WMD\'s Then when USA arrives we have no WMD\'s and the president looks like an ass.

Personally that whole incident made me think \"at least we have an honest president\"
How easy would it have been for bush to arrange for WMD\'s to be \"found\" in Iraq thus saving himself from much time and trouble.

Anyway thats my take on the reason we\'re im Iraq.

[tygerwilde]

If sadaam had sold an abundant source of WMD to anyone, there would be some way of tracking them, too many people would have had to have been involved to keep it quiet.
and that is a fact

[Ineluke]

Originally posted by tygerwilde
If sadaam had sold an abundant source of WMD to anyone, there would be some way of tracking them, too many people would have had to have been involved to keep it quiet.
and that is a fact

Thats not nessisarily true. He\'s not a good man but he\'s not stupid either. I\'m sure he knew we were coming long before we actually came and got rid of the weapons over time and to a variety of people.
If by tracking you means some sort of technology then no. That technology does not yet exist. Otherwise we would have used that as proof that he had wmd\'s showed that to the un and had their full support. We would have never had to have gone into Iraq without the support of everone. We went in hoping to fing something he couldn\'t fence yet but he was just a little too fast for us.

[tygerwilde]

nothing like that, I\'m saying that a project as extensive as the government believed was going on in Iraq would have involved literally hundreds of people, and when you have that many people involved, you are guaranteed to have someone with loose lips. there would have been a trail to follow to the weapons.