Author Topic: Science And Magic  (Read 4790 times)

lucius

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Science And Magic
« on: June 08, 2004, 03:20:06 pm »
Ok , I know you night not like this idea and i know that there was somewhere a topic about guns ... But I\'d like to write this idea  anyway . So please don\'t be so harsh on it .

 Well , I was kinda thinking about science&magic aspect  in the game . I know it\'s a fantasy game , but still it would be nice to have a choise betwin magic or science . I\'m not talking about guns or fireballs (altho gunpowder existed for a long time , even in medievel times ... cannons , for example were used as siege weapons mainly ) . But I know that it\'s FANTASY and not HISTORICAL game ... But on the other hand : where else could magic and science exist in one world side by side ? ;)

 Let\'s say you\'re a blacksmith , you reached sertain level or a grade in blacksmithing ... You might want to make a magical ( like +1 ) weapons ... Or you might consentrate on science and to create better sword , armour with the use of technology ... Magical weapons could be enhanced or blessed and you could put some spells on it . Technological weapons can\'t be enhanced , but you can add some gadgets or modules and they would have some other non-magical skills ( like additional critical dammege or you could put some oil on it and to torch it , so now you would have additional fire dammege )

Or let\'s say you\'re a thief and you got your picklocks skill ... You could use more technologicaly advanced lockpicks or you could use magic ... It goes to locks as well , by the way . I mean some loks could be enforced with magic and some could me technological masterpiese ...

 Let\'s say you found some useless trinket in some dungeon ... You could combine it with another useless trinket that you found earlier . As a result you\'ll get some gadget that could add some speed to your heavy armour ...

 I\'m not talking about skill only ... I just gave some example of what it could be .

   There can be plenty of possibilies in a world like that . And it would me much more choise for players and other stuff to explore .


I\'m not comparing PlaneShift with any other games , right now , I just want to give some examples of the games , where science&magic were applied together :Arcanum , Wizardy 8 . If you ever played any of those games , you know what I\'m talking about then . And before anybody sayed \"It sux\" or \"Science will spoill this game..\" let me tell one thing . It won\'t spoil anything . And there almost will be no diference betwin both sides if they\'ll be god balanced . At least I think so . It will give more posibilities to players and more things to chose from , which means more fun and moreinterest ...  Althogh it\'s only my opinion .

Ineluke

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« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2004, 05:09:36 pm »
sounds like a good idea but where do you limit it? would there be a gadget comperable to each spell in the game? I like to think of science as limited and magic as unlimited. Also if you do have a comperable scientific \"thing\" for lack of a better term, for each spell why not just have one or the other. It makes no sense to have to program two separate things for the same effect.
You should revise your idea a little and have some things only science can do and some only magic. Post again. I think its a good idea but you need to iron out the bugs first...
« Last Edit: June 08, 2004, 05:10:44 pm by Ineluke »
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« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2004, 06:25:52 pm »
I like your concept alot but I am not 100 percent sure because I don\'t keep my eye on it but they might have that system figured the way they want it already. *shrugs* like I said not sure!

lucius

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« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2004, 08:47:23 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by DepthBlade
I like your concept alot but I am not 100 percent sure because I don\'t keep my eye on it but they might have that system figured the way they want it already. *shrugs* like I said not sure!


That\'s fine with me ... as long as they\'ll give you a choise to follow path of science or magic  .
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Quote
Originally posted by Ineluke
You should revise your idea a little and have some things only science can do and some only magic. Post again. I think its a good idea but you need to iron out the bugs first...



 Those ideas that I wrote there came to my head right when I started to write this thread , I didn\'t thought much about it , I just wrote what came on my mind . But yeah . I agree with you . It\'s pointless to have to have paralize spell in magic and some devise that would basicaly do the same thing as paralize spell . That\'s not what I meant in my previus post . It\'s true , there should be different abilities , but some small things ( like light spell and lamp ( possibly electrick , which is much better then a torchlight ) or open locks spell and some high-tech lockpicks that can give you some bonuse to your picklock skill ) - al of those things should exist at both sides . Am I right ? Let\'s say with magic you can enhance your sword to +1 , +2 , +3 (and so on ... ) and sometimes you can put some minor (but usefull ) spell on it ( like stun at hit with some percent on succes ) . With science , however , you can create a better sword or upgrade an existing one . You may also customize that weapon ( since it belongs to science domain now ) and add some devises to it ... It won\'t be equal to +1 , +2 , +3 ( and so on ) and especialy that won\'t be MAGIC weapon . But it will be good weapon anyway . And what is more important , it actualy , will be YOUR weapon . You\'l be with it for a long time , you\'ll customize it , upgrade it , you\'ll add difrent modifications to it and you\'ll take care of it like it\'s your child :D . And what happens to magical weapon ? When you have weapon +1 and you get weapon +2 or higher , you\'re simply selling it to somebody , because you don\'t need it anymore ( and don\'t say \"no\" - that\'s fact ) . Can\'t say anything about magic , since I don\'t know exists already ( in devs heads :D )  .... But for science - you could craft all kinds of arrows . Explosive arrow for example , or armour piercing arrow or arrow with vial of acid in it .

Speacking of armour ... For example - magic heavy plate . It offers uber protection , but it\'s heavy and slow . Heavy plate that you made with the help of science has lower protection ,  but it\'s light and you can move with it almost freely ... ALMOST .

Those are few things that can be at both magic and science ... However it\'s not all what they have ... Ofcourse they\'ll have lots of different inventions(devises , gadgets)/spells . It\'s just that right now I can\'t figure out anything of particular ... I\'ll try to made up something more ...
 But feal free to share your thoughts :D

P.S: Oh wait got one already ... How about steam powered robot as your pet ? :D Oh ... And here comes another one : If you\'ll combine a set of gadgets, you\'ll get steam engine ... Exept robot don\'t know where it can be usefull as well ... Wait  !!! I got it !!! Steam powered super-uber upgraded heavy mechanical armour ( Hmmm... Will do for veeeeeery high-level characters ;) )

Elegrand

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« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2004, 10:05:39 pm »
Why should each spell have a gadget equivelent? We\'re not all scientist/blacksmiths/warriors or sorceres/priests/priestesses/mages etc.
Magical folk would prefer to use spells and magic, whilst non-magical folk would use scince and gadgets.
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Kiva

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« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2004, 10:10:24 pm »
Quote
Let\'s say with magic you can enhance your sword to +1 , +2 , +3 (and so on ... ) and sometimes you can put some minor (but usefull ) spell on it ( like stun at hit with some percent on succes )


That sounds like a very bad idea taken from some very bad korean hack&slash game. BAD IDEA!

First of all, magical weapons are not to be commonly available. In fact, only people who can actually make those weapons themselves should own them. That means you don\'t go on a raid and simply dump a magical item because there is no more room in your backpack (hello diablo!). That\'s very bad style.

As for spell-enhanced weapons, you might get a spell that makes your sword give magical damage instead of physical damage only. No bonus, just the fact that you can now kill things that require magical weapons to kill. A spell such as that could last for 24 hours, or something similar to that.

Science items... I don\'t know. Sure, there can be guns like in the medieval times, but you need to remember. There was a 75% chance they blew up in your hand. If they actually did fire, they were more noisy than damaging, and it took a LONG time to reload. So guns and the like should be kept for viewing purposes only. About steam armors or whatever, I don\'t really get the idea. This isn\'t some Wild Wild West-like game with big robots and whatever, this is a fantasy medieval game.

Generally an okay idea, but like Ineluke said, you need to do lots of thinking before you suggest something like this. You need to work out all the pros and cons, and tell of the possibilities. Not simply say that it\'s a cool idea and let the devs to the rest of the thinking. :)
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Seytra

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« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2004, 11:06:11 pm »
I think science is fine in a magical world. Even if _everybody_ has magic (they all have mana, don\'t they?). Therefore, who would bother about science? Well, less people, obviously, but still some. Magic will effectively become a major science all by itself, because it has so much power. However, there are some distinct advantages of scientific research as well, mainly the devices can be made to wear off in much longer times than magical ones but require less stuff. Not less effort, but less special materials and, of course, no spells.

Take swords: the standard sword was just a flat piece of metal with a pointy tip and maybe sharpened edges. This could, of course, be enhanced magically to do extreme damage and also other types of damage like fire or whatever.

Take a katana now. This also is the same concept \"sword\", but it has scientific origins. The average katana is made a _very_ special way (pulverizing it again and again), making the blade extremely durable and sharp while also light. The best the swordmakers could come up with was better steel and maybe a better hardening process if you are lucky. Swords are heavy, they are, in essence, crude.

This is what science will do. Of course, you can enchant a conventional sword to become more durable, lighter and sharper, but what if you do this to a katana? That\'s the way the uber-swords should be created IMO, because magic will also have it\'s limitations, at least in what\'s feasible and worth the effort.

I don\'t believe in the \"+1 Sword\", because IMO it\'s just a waste of mana. If I were to enhance a weapon magically, I\'d not do it to the standard sword if I can help it. I\'d do it to a sword that already has exceptional attributes, because it\'s going to be _way_ more effective while taking the exact same effort.

This is the same logic that applies to magical artifacts: you use good materials, because if you do, you start off with a better thing. In cast of artifacts, the enchanting itself will be more easy to do if the proper materials are being used, but it\'s still the same: if you take the same effort, using crap as base will give you an artifact of less power than if you started off with good materials.

Science and magic, therefore, not only coexist but automatically combine.

I don\'t fancy steam-powered robots and stuff like this at all (I think it\'s stupid since steam engines simply are either not powerful enough or to big to do anything, mostly because of the big boiler, just look at the steam-powered trains), but I acknowledge that there can be magically animated robots. But even these would not be made from wood, but from well-crafted metal that will be much more durable with the same spells applied.

So magic would, IMO, be an enhancement of scientifically created stuff and for things that require scientific theory that isn\'t possible in medieval times. One must, however, acknowledge that magic, by enhancing scientific devices, can actually speed up research in other sciences besides magic itself. What if a device similar to an electron-microscope would have been available in medieval times due to magical enhancement? The resulting scientific theories could then be appiled and the resulting devices enhanced ba magic once more, so all development would receive a serious speed-up.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2004, 11:07:04 pm by Seytra »

lucius

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« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2004, 10:17:16 am »
1)
Quote
Originally posted by Gronomist
That sounds like a very bad idea taken from some very bad korean hack&slash game. BAD IDEA!


 Actualy i was refearing to AD&D series ... Where enchanted weapon is a common thing ( you know , long sword +1 , +2 ... up to +5 , and there are special weapons the ones you can\'t buy in stores ... Like Corsomir :) ( greate sword +5 , gives 50% magic ressistance , on hit: remove magic spell , spell failure 20% , double dammage to evil creatures , paladins only :D )

2)
Quote
Originally posted by Gronomist
First of all, magical weapons are not to be commonly available. In fact, only people who can actually make those weapons themselves should own them. That means you don\'t go on a raid and simply dump a magical item because there is no more room in your backpack (hello diablo!). That\'s very bad style.


First of all , give a link , where I can read about magic and magical items in the game , since I know nothing about it !!! If you\'ll do it , I might come up with a better ideas . And secondly , I hate Diablo and ALL hack&slash games . And the last thing that I want is thet this game would look like those .

3)
Quote
Originally posted by Gronomist
As for spell-enhanced weapons, you might get a spell that makes your sword give magical damage instead of physical damage only. No bonus, just the fact that you can now kill things that require magical weapons to kill. A spell such as that could last for 24 hours, or something similar to that.


  Actualy ... that\'s how all \"+1\" weapons work (in normal games ofcourse) . Enchancments gave you ability to dammage creatures that normal weapons would do no effect on those ... Ofcource , there were stronger magic mobs and only strongest enchantments ( Corsomir +5 :D YAY )worked on those . But that\'s not to the point . What I wanted to say is that if it\'s +# weapon , it would do magic dammage already ... And not raize weapon\'s stats , like in korean hack&slash games .
24 hours ?!?!?! Isn\'t that TOO LONG ?

3)
Quote
Originally posted by Gronomist
Science items... I don\'t know. Sure, there can be guns like in the medieval times, but you need to remember. There was a 75% chance they blew up in your hand. If they actually did fire, they were more noisy than damaging, and it took a LONG time to reload. So guns and the like should be kept for viewing purposes only. About steam armors or whatever, I don\'t really get the idea. This isn\'t some Wild Wild West-like game with big robots and whatever, this is a fantasy medieval game.


That\'s bull about medievil guns . It\'s true that they were long ro reload , but they were reliable ... Not those crapy german cannons ( if there are any germans , sorry , but that\'s true ) ... In 14th sentury , when guns only came to Europe , were all crapy , but there was no 75% of blowing up ... it was 75% of shooting ( and it was at europian guns only  , rusian guns at that time were the best - historical fact , but not to the point ) .

Not so powerfull ? Eh ? Gun loaded with stones wouldn\'t pierce full plate , no ... But it would brake soldier\'s bones and that way it would make him useless during a war . Guns loaded with iron bullets , however , would pass throgh full plate ( and a guy in it ) as if it would be made of paper ... And next 3 guys , who were behind first one would get same bullet ... It would stuck in 4th guy thogh ... :(
 Wild Wild West ?!?!?! Dude , you\'re watching too many movies :D And i wasn\'t talking about that giant spider robot or that tank . And I didn\'t meant steam powered armour ( althogh I wrote it like that . I\'m not deneing it ) . What I meant is a very heavy armour with a small engine mounted in it , that would ease your movements in it .

 And before you\'ll start reminding me again that it\'s a fantasy game , let me tell you something . I know it !!! But you should not forget that ias well . It\'s a FANTASY game  . Meaning ? There could be everything in fantasy !Even steam powered engine , since it\'s a fantasy game ...
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  You know what Seytra , to all what you said I can say only one thing : it\'s even crapier then my ideas . You know why ? Because magic manipulates the laws of nature ( I\'m not talking about druids and other stuff like that , I\'m talking about physics ) , changes them how it likes ( well , how the mage likes ) . Science , however , follows those laws , uses them , all the science based on those laws ( the ones that magic manipulates them ) . Therefore , magic and science can\'t be combined , they\'ll simply ruin each other . For that reason you can\'t take sword that was made with scientificaly aproach and to enchance it . ANd therefore : forget everything you wrote about magic artifacts that created with a use of science .

 Magicly animated robots ?!?!?! Were you refearing to golems ?!?!?! Huge guys made out of stone or iron ( look at the race , called kran ) ? And steam engines are not the only engines that can exist in that world ,  you know ... It was just an example ! And for the same reasons I wrote earlier , robotrs , can\'t be \"magicly animated\" .

Quote
Originally posted by Seytra
So magic would, IMO, be an enhancement of scientifically created stuff and for things that require scientific theory that isn\'t possible in medieval times. One must, however, acknowledge that magic, by enhancing scientific devices, can actually speed up research in other sciences besides magic itself. What if a device similar to an electron-microscope would have been available in medieval times due to magical enhancement? The resulting scientific theories could then be appiled and the resulting devices enhanced ba magic once more, so all development would receive a serious speed-up.


 Speaking of history ... If curch wouldn\'t burn all the scientists in past for their \"heresy\" and \"blasephy\" , there could be already steam engine in 16th sentury . Not to mention that idea of microscope was already known in ancient Greece ... They didn\'t made it thogh , but they had scopes .


Now about your \"sword and katana\" thing ... Katana is the sword  . And swords wern\'t made so easily as you think . Did you knew that in England in 14th century , blacksmiths used mix of iron and steal to create swords . Such mix gave to the swords fexibility of iron and hardness of steel at the same time . And they wern\'t so crude at all . That mix had scientific origins ...

Now let\'s take katanas . They had absolutely no scientific origins . True , they pulverized it again and again and again and again ... They only knew it would make their stell harder . They didn\'t knew why or how would it make it better , they just knew it and they used it  . Preaty same thing that with monkey , that throws stick at bananas so tat they would fall . It don\'t know why bananas are falling , it just knows tha they falling and that\'s all what she needs ... Latter on . Starting from 13 century ( if I\'m corect ) , weaponsmiths started to use layers of steel in their work . Now THAT was a scientific origin . They used thin layers of steel .Twenty of those layers were combined to create sword . Then when they were combined weaponsmiths were using two diferent clays ( YAY !!! They finaly started to think :D ) . First kind of clay was used on blade itself and the other - on the rest of the sword . that way  , when sword was taken to the forge , different tempretuers were needed for blade and the rest of the sword to be ready . It would allow to blade to be very hard and durable , while the rest of sword\'s \"body\" ( don\'t know how to say it on english ) would be flexible and hard at the same time . And that\'s where they started to think acualy ... The problem is they used it even when spanish colonists used guns ...





Quote
Originally posted by Elegrand
Why should each spell have a gadget equivelent? We\'re not all scientist/blacksmiths/warriors or sorceres/priests/priestesses/mages etc.
Magical folk would prefer to use spells and magic, whilst non-magical folk would use scince and gadgets.


 It shouldn\'t !!! But there should be some small things equal at both sides ... Like I wrote about light spell . But only few !!! And definately not EACH spell and gadget !!!

Taldor

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« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2004, 11:08:16 am »
Quote
Originally posted by lucius
24 hours ?!?!?! Isn\'t that TOO LONG ?

There is nothing wrong with effects that take 24 hours, as long as they are no to powerfull.
Quote

You know what Seytra , to all what you said I can say only one thing : it\'s even crapier then my ideas . You know why ? Because magic manipulates the laws of nature ( I\'m not talking about druids and other stuff like that , I\'m talking about physics ) , changes them how it likes ( well , how the mage likes ) . Science , however , follows those laws , uses them , all the science based on those laws ( the ones that magic manipulates them ) . Therefore , magic and science can\'t be combined , they\'ll simply ruin each other . For that reason you can\'t take sword that was made with scientificaly aproach and to enchance it . ANd therefore : forget everything you wrote about magic artifacts that created with a use of science .

You played Arcamum to much.

Generally, it\'s a great idea but the devs will prolly only implement science as far as it was discovered in the medieval times, because otherwise it would change the setting to much.

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« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2004, 12:10:02 pm »
If some more advanced scientific technology was to be added i.e. things a bit better than the basic chemestry (alchemy in the middle ages, sort of anyway).  Something I would like to see is things like airships for large scale transport (not private or military use though and no I haven\'t been playing too much FFIX), airships are useful as it\'s mass transport for normal people among cities above ground/on the same level.

I don\'t think that steam powered armour should be available as I don\'t think we can do such a thing currently and or it\'s not practical to do such a thing as it would add too much weight.

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Ineluke

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« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2004, 03:22:35 pm »
I\'m pretty sure we are going to have a flying race so you can probably bet on a creature that flies to be used as transport for the rest of the races. And don\'t forget either flying is kinda limited being as our entire civilization in in a stalagtight.  :D
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Seytra

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« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2004, 07:17:37 pm »
Lucius, your argument can only be valid within the particular magical theory of yours. Even within it, it\'s still flawed, because:

once science has created something, magic could change the forces of nature that make it work, right. However, it doesn\'t need to. As you already said, magic _can_ alter all rules of physics. So why could it not be used to _improve_ the effects that the scientific device relies on to function? This is the same alteration of natural laws, but it will enhance the scientific device quite a lot.

Example: torch.
Conventional, scientific torch: creates heat and light by oxidation process
Magically enhanced torch: uses same oxidation process, however emits all energy generated by said process to output only light.

Therefore, the magically enhanced torch will either output _way_ more light than the conventional torch, or can burn way longer with ame light output as said scientific torch. Or be much smaller.

Side-effect: it will not burn you.


Same thing in reverse: heat-only torch for all the infrared sensitive eyes out there: light that can only be seen by you (well, at least by fewer people and monsters)! Cool? I think so.

These same effects can, as I alradsy said, be created by magic alone, but this magic would need to be much more powerful in order to achieve the same effect.

This can also be applied to more advanced tech, even to current SOTA - tech like microprocessors: by eliminating heat output of transistors you can make them way smaller, faster and don\'t even need a heatsink anymore.

It is only a common way of gamedesigners to simply define that the higher the scientific refinement of any item is, the harder it is to apply magic to it. This has, however, no more validity as saying that magic cannot exist at all, probably less. ;)

There also are game systems that even have specific magic to influence scientific devices! (ShadowRun, for example). Therefore, it\'s really just a question of the ruledesigners\' ability to integrate science and magic, and only if they fail to, they need to resort to artificial limitations in order to keep their concepts working.

Why? Because MAGIC CAN DO ANYTHING! Why should it be limited to non-scientific devices only? After all, the most scientific device still obeys the same rules as, well, mud. No difference, you could even have a whole scientific theory of mud, create completely artificial mud. Would this mud than be excluded from being influenced by magic? I don\'t think it could be.

As for the steam-powered tanks: I liked Army of darkness, but I\'m reluctant to believe that even this (primitive) tank would have worked IRL, because of the weight vs. power problem. Maybe it even would, but I don\'t know, really. It would take a steam train on wheels to have enough power to run through medieval countryside, and it would most likely simply get stuck / sink in the first muddy field it happens to encounter. Medieval countryside was either very wet (-> mud), rocky (-> mountains) or sandy (-> desert). The steam tank could cope with mountains if it were not that mountains are somewhat unsuited for large / heavy vehicles.

As for swords vs katanas: scientific theory comes from observation. Afterwards, the resulting theory can predict effects not easily observed. So the katana was made using the observation that grinding it repeatedly will improve it, without scientific theory. It also could be made lighter than a sword because it was more durable. I don\'t know weather they knew it was because of the resulting structure or not. I thought they knew, but if you say they didn\'t, I accept that.
When blacksmiths applied layered metal, they maybe had scientific theory, OK. So the advanced swords were scientific. This would, in your theory, then prevent them from being magically enhanced, while the katana could be, because it didn\'t use scientific theory? :)
The mixing of stell and iron IMO is also just an observation or the product of experiements so it\'s the same as the grinding of katanas: applied obervation, not scientific theory. And I\'d be surprised if the makers of katanas used any iron they happened to come across, or just threw it into a lake to cool.

Still, I believe that even the most advanced swords were crude compared to a katana. However, katanas were not easily created (years and years for creating a single one, IIRC). Seeing that I don\'t know weather or not any of them had any scientific theory as opposed to observation, further arguing on my side would be pointless.

As for your strength-enhancing armour powered by steam:  I hate it. Anyway, it will not work due to lack of water (tank can only be tiny). Furthermore, it will not work because it\'d be too crude unless you imply modern-tech valves and pressure- powered actuators. IOW, it would be bulky at best. Not to mention that it\'d be kinda warm to have a nice, cozy fire burning inside your backpack all the time, while pipes (made of metal, I presume), filled with ~90?C - tempered water or even hotter steam, run along your body! Of course, you _could_ insulate the temperature, but this would be a matter of extreme bulkiness. It would add to armor, though...

Well, UNLESS it\'s enhanced by magic...

Ineluke: The flying _race_ would be Klyros. They won\'t be good for riding, because they\'re weak. There are flying animals that are meant for transportation, however. And the use of flight outside of the city would indeed be limited because there wouldn\'t be anything to fly to: the other places are behind walls of rock, are tunnels, whatever. The only use would be for fishing because one could more easily access far regions of the lake, but it\'d not warrant huge transport ships.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2004, 07:22:54 pm by Seytra »

lucius

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« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2004, 07:53:01 pm »
Well , I convince that armour with engine ( any engine , doesn\'t have to be steam engine ) is a crapy idea ( lol , I imagine kran guy wearing huge armour with a boiler on his back :D )

 \" ...the devs will prolly only implement science as far as it was discovered in the medieval times, because otherwise it would change the setting to much.\" - don\'t forget it\'s not our world . There was no inquisition and people didn\'t get burned alive for their lust for knolage ... So people of PS universe could advance in science much fasted then it was in our actual history :D There is even a posibility that they can discover electrisity in their world ... but that doesn\'t mean that people would start using it right away for example as lights on the streats . No , electrisity would be avaliable for reaserch to scientists only , not for the mages .

 Oh and I didn\'t played ARCANUM that much at all ... Ok so I did - as elf :D and I don\'t know much about science in Arcanum :)


 About air ships and air travels ... Devs going ot put flying creatures in the game ... Your flight will depend on your skill , but overall (at least I think :D ) everybody will be able to fly ... Who won\'t be able - well , sufise to say that trainers and \"pilots\" will have a good profit out of those people ;)

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Here\'s the list of scientific stuff that wasn\'t criticised ( yet :D ) and something I just made up :


1) All kinds of arrows : armour piercing ( don\'t get me wrong , It\'s not negates ALL the armour , just some part of it ) ; arrows with acid ( acid makes low dammage , but it lasts for some time , pluss reduses armour efficiency ( YAY ! acid burnes through everything :D ) ; explosive arrows ( I don\'t mean those arrows that Rembo used :D ) ; noisemakers ( used to lure ( or to avoid ) mobs (has failure chance  , depending on mob\'s inteligence) .


2) Metalsmelting ( maybe not the most suitable name ) :
This will allow to reaserch better metals . For example mixing low level metals to resive a better one . The better mettal - the better sword that\'s made out of this metal . You get the point , right ?


3)  Weaponmaking : all kinds of weapons with a scientific origins . From swords to bows ( and maybe even some of the guns - who knows ? ;) )


4) Armourmaking : Allows to improve regular armour and to create flexible armour with good protection ( not as good as enchanted thogh , but it\'s more comfortable and therefore more manuvreble and it doesn\'t weight so much as regular or enchanted armour )


5)Gadgets : gadgets , trinkets , all those inventions that are making our ( in game :) ) life easier ... THe examples are lamp ( electric ? flashlight ? nah ... ) and some sort of advanced lockpicks . I don\'t know about this one ... Should all the  mods ( modifications ) be included in this category or should it be seperate skill/category ? Or maybe it would be seperate category , but it would depend on gadgets skill as well ... Don\'t know ...

That would be all for now ... Needles to say that only scientificle items can be upgraded or to have modifications added to them ...


Oh , almost forgot one more idea that crossed my mind :

Fireworks: All that comes to big ( or small :) ) booms :) . This could be harmless fireworks ( just for some entertainment or for luring out mobs ) or some charges or bombs ( but not dynamite all C4 explosives ) .

Ineluke

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« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2004, 07:58:57 pm »
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Ineluke: The flying _race_ would be Klyros. They won\'t be good for riding, because they\'re weak. There are flying animals that are meant for transportation, however. And the use of flight outside of the city would indeed be limited because there wouldn\'t be anything to fly to: the other places are behind walls of rock, are tunnels, whatever. The only use would be for fishing because one could more easily access far regions of the lake, but it\'d not warrant huge transport ships.

Um you misunderstood me...
I didn\'t mean that people would ride Klyros I mean that if the devs thought to create a race that could fly then they were more than likely going to create animals that could fly and it is also very likely that you may be able to fly on these animals.
Also I seen to recall some sort of mention of riding an animal that flies in the game itself from one of the guards outside of the tavern.... I could be wrong though...
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Zephyrus

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« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2004, 08:04:37 pm »
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Originally posted by Ineluke
Also I seen to recall some sort of mention of riding an animal that flies in the game itself from one of the guards outside of the tavern.... I could be wrong though...


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Pterosaurs

The Pterosaurs are reptiles with organs adapted to flight, such as their membranous wings and long tails, which they use as a rudder. The Pterosaurs\' dimensions vary from three to six meters, not including their tails, and their wingspan is directly proportionate to their bodies. From the moment they are born, Pterosaurs begin training to carry a person sitting in a saddle buckled between the animal\'s shoulder blades. Pterosaurs must be at least three years old and fully trained before they can actually carry a person, which makes them precious, coveted, and very expensive to keep. Only extremely wealthy people can afford these lizards, but no matter how wealthy a family is they may only legally own a single Pterosaur. The law forbids owning more than one of these animals in order to avoid dangerously crowding the limited air space.


Megaras

The second flying animal is the Megaras, which is similar to a giant bat. Scientists believe the Crystal has genetically mutated the Megaras, since they reproduce only in Yliakum. These bat-like creatures are not as docile as the Pterosaurs, but they are stronger and more efficient, making them perfect to carry heavy but not too delicate loads, such as food and building materials. As with the Pterosaurs, each mercantile society is allowed to own only one Megaras.


Try reading the website sometime :P