Author Topic: Fantasy role-playing...  (Read 1388 times)

Krissanasli

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Fantasy role-playing...
« on: July 11, 2004, 10:54:27 am »
What we always fear and loathe
Becomes of us...
Repay the visit of our loss,
Reset the marks again.
The turning point,
The turning point...
Seems to be holding on.

   -Dark Tranquillity\'s \"The Same\"

Before I reach into the heart of tis post, let me define imagination: any mental process that alters concepts more than it gathers them from memory. That is to say, if I imagine a building, cut it in half and put the lower half on top of the upper one, that\'s not exactly a process of imagination, nor is coming up with a four-armed god. However, if I were to take simple elements like protons and electrons and build them into a living creature, it\'s called imagination, because I\'d be relying on my own thoughts a lot more than on my memory. Repeating myths is not imagination, nor is replacing names and shapes while preserving their essence. Keep this in mind as you read... Without understanding this, most of what I say may seem absurd.

Over two decades, the underworld of plagiatism has grown from a mere cottage industry into a great dungeon of intellect. Snickering little goblins shifted through the dark recesses of what we call the internet, where all manners of ideas plundered from the surface world were buried and composted. Lord of the Rings, somewhat of a plagiatism of old legends, which perhaps owed its success as much to its  as to its originality, was shredded -and the fragments stolen- so that an uninspired d00d might try to replay frodo\'s adventures using a die and a spreadsheet. Countless fresh dreams were interred among the scraps of  honor, war and gambling. When Chainmail and some later games lost their strategic value, heroes had to come to the rescue. So they came: the brutish warrior was ushered in, along with the white wizard and the sneaky thief. They were dreams, lurking on the edge of consciousness, that many wanted to fulfill. By introducing some heroic stereotypes, the hope was to give these games a semblace of legitimacy, or perhaps just to bring the player into a familiar environment. It\'s much harder to go around hacking and slashing if you have to figure out what character you\'re playing first. Heroes came to the rescue, not of some princess in distress, but of a dead, festering kingdom in dire need of a figurehead. The pages of the Hobbit, torn, spit on and attached to a meaningless list of game features, sought to give some merit to otherwise worthless tales.

Count the number of \"fantasy RPGs\" that \"borrow\" from middle earth, without ever giving back... You\'ll find only a handful. Now, count the number that \"borrow\" from these games, and the number of games that burrow from the games that burrow from these games, and, well... It\'s a wonder that the fantasy label hasn\'t peeled off yet. Designers steal rules from the games they like, whether they know it or not; they steal settings, styles, and even quirks, either to feel their game belongs to the \"fantasy genre\", or because these things would be useful for some purpose. In a few lonely cases, they do it to provide a link between their worlds and the established norm - darksun, one of the few fantastic settings, did this. Most games simply do it because \"that\'s how things are done\". It\'s the case of Birthright, Ravenloft and Planescape, Warhammer, Ars Magica and Harn. Whatever little quirks they bring, they still do things the way they\'re done.

This should hardly surprise anyone... Imitation is almost literally the backbone of the average mind, and for the same reason people wear fashionable clothes, they also put on the ideas of their culture. For a \"fantasy\" culture, this is all but disasterous. Why is it, after all, that \"fantasy\" is now distinct from \"science fiction\"? When looked at from a clear perspective, science fiction all too often proves more fantastic than \"fantasy\" itself! It\'s easy to explain, I think... \"fantasy\" became associated with big heroes hacking away, just like \"RPG\" became associated with stat-bumping. And this is because people can more easily understand the concept of swords&sorcery than that of genuine fantasy.

I remember someone in these forums once asked for \"fantasy symbols\" (which were round and continuous) as opposed to squarish, well-divided \"sci-fi\" symbols. A person wanted to imitate fantasy... And this, perhaps, is the most eloquent example of why fantasy cannot exist in this game, or indeed, in most of the gaming culture. If something fails to resemble the old classics, it\'s not fantasy.

Gamers have been talking about \"cool ideas\" since forums were invented - bring stables into the game, add a playable race of dragons! Hell, bring the whole world into the game, with every inch of dirt, if you can, and slap some  of Middle Earth onto it while you\'re at it. Designers have been using the same game mechanics for years without thinking of a good alternative - who needs a good alternative when you\'ve got work to do and sales to think about? Magazine reviewers hate originality - it forces them to put more time into a game than they might like to, just so they would have something coherent to write. Trained into comparing games rather than outlaying their features, most of them would regard the game as a hurdle, or, at best, a writing challenge. So-called philosophers lounge in their chairs and debate whether Aristotle would beat Descartes in single combat, never bothering to think beyond their well-established concepts. And let\'s remember that everyone was, at some point in his life, a gamer, a pseudo-philosopher and a reviewer... Some were even designers, in fact. To understand why imagination has been so neglected, we must start by looking at ourselves.

Far too many times, people rigidly adhere to the most baseless social axioms instead of changing them. It\'s why the japanese and former communists converted to democracy without essentially changing a thing - nobody was going to act like a real democracy was in place, anyway. We see this happen in every sphere of life, from science (where progress is constantly stifled by the academia) to big business (where social ties are far more relevant than wisdom). Games go along the same lines, unfortunately. There was a thread about economy in the wish list forum, where I mentioned that, in a setting where people created their own objects out of a limited \"creation points\" pool, every problem brought about by \"normal\" economics would be solved. One person called this system artificial. In a way, it is... It\'s made up, hence crafted as an artifice of the mind. I suppose many things could be called artificial when they don\'t fit in with established norms - even if, for their own settings, they\'d work splendidly.

But why haven\'t we seen anything like this in an RPG? In fact, why haven\'t we seen the countless settings that would be far easier to design than \"medieval fantasy\"? Perhaps for the same reason we see hack&slashes being advertised as open-ended worlds... \"Play out your fantasies!\"; \"Be anything you want!\"; So long as you want nothing more than a \"fantasy\" game, all your wishes will come true. Role-playing worlds could be many times as inspired and rewarding as they are now, and it wouldn\'t even take some miracle of thought to invent them... Just start asking yourself how a game might be built around the \"RPG\" concept, and in trying to find the answer, you\'re bound to build something original.

Why, then, has fantasy been lost, if it was ever in our grasp? The answer, it seems, can be found as much in the designers as the players. Namely - and I say this without so much as a hint of malice - you have no imagination.

That\'s the problem, really. Sure, you might have some imagination, but not enough for fantasy. It might be enough to invent men with ibis heads or flowers that blossom at dawn, but little beyond that. I doubt it takes a whole lot to \"get\" imagination (I actually consider it a technical skill), but people, for the most part, don\'t want it.  They don\'t need it, really. They want to imagine things that are meaningful to themselves, rather than far-fetched ideas that won\'t seem to help them out anywhere. You don\'t want to role-play an alien mind, because it gives you nothing in return... Nothing except a new experience. A creature that can\'t feel human emotions or pursue human goals won\'t ever be able to satisfy your own. People may cherish fantasy in its most simple forms, as it could always half-fulfill their needs, but when asked to exert themselves and make something truly original, most will refuse. Not many people want to make a Darksun when the Forgotten Realms are at arm\'s length. Sure, the world might be less rich and varied without Darksun, but who needs it when there\'s adventure to be had? Forget originality! Just grab some loot, role-play your character or something.

People have long been asking for RP to be distinguished from the mindless hackfests of Ashedon\'s Call. I ask that we consider what fantasy means, and that we finally distinguish it from \"medieval fantasy\". We should stop looking at the classics as if they *had* to be ripped off. We should look at the list of RPGs available and read their little backstories until our eyes become so weak, and our minds so disgusted, that we\'ll swear not to look upon such hackneyed rags again. We have to understand that in the role-playing world, for the most part, there is no fantasy.

And not because \"nothing is new\", or some other baloney. To even say something like that is to ignore the obvious - five centuries ago, while people said \"nothing is new\" and pointed to their bibles, science fiction would have been new... Unfortunately, that these same people forbade it from appearing, busy as they were in rooting out technology. There is no fantasy, but because nobody supports it. People are far too content with their petty plagiatism to cherish anything original.

People want to play, not learn or invent. They (you, perhaps) want to escape life, to save themselves from problems they can\'t bear to relieve and to imagine that, somehow, their status in some little eden means anything beyond it. Most simply want to satisfy their social instincts and become the biggest dogs in a small kennel. Some would simply look for fun, not even bothering to justify this to themselves. Some, meanwhile, would rather play out  interesting situations or experience new aspects of the human soul... There\'s still no fantasy in that. No, role-playing is not synonimous with fantasy. You can find tons of interesting situations in a perfectly unoriginal setting - the real world. Originality can certainly be used, but it\'s not needed. Indeed, it can sometimes hinder the constructive aspects of role-playing: if you play out an insurrection in a medieval country that has just fallen to the armies of an empire, you\'re still likely to hate the arabs struggling in Iraq. A simple, small world can be role-played in for years without losing any of its charm, and while role-players may proudly acknowledge this, it still hinders the imagination to an extent. It\'s almost tragic, how a wonderful aspect of a game can crush the splendor of another.

Nobody notices how badly fantasy is needed until it becomes part of the status quo. Suppose, for instance, that sci-fi and \"fantasy\" still haven\'t been invented today, and that modern MMORPGs offer a single race - the humans. Boring? Probably, but no one would notice it. After all, what could they play beside the warrior, the wizard and the thief that most of their games offered? The bard, perhaps? By being stuck in the dimensions of their world, however few, players inevitably failed to understand that there was more to fantasy than they knew - just as powergamers fail to understand the subtleties of role-playing.

Mindless hordes of followers bow to one another, trapped in a perverse game of short-sightedness and social obedience. In the midst of this, originality is lost. I bring you all a simple question: what are you going to do about it?

snow_RAveN

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« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2004, 12:33:32 pm »
I (insert name here) hence forth sware that I will ...... ECT ECT ECT BLAH BLAH BLAH make a vow not to call people noobs. Blah blAh Blah Promise to respect other role-players ..... blah blah blah ....  God save The king/queen

any more ideas to the vow ? :D
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Krissanasli

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« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2004, 12:37:59 pm »
Yes. Vow that you won\'t make any more replies like this - and I mean that for the whole forum, not just my own posts.

Monketh

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« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2004, 04:21:11 pm »
A. What can one do about it?
The key to manipulative bargaining is to ask for something twice as big as what you want, then smile and nod when you are talked down to your original wish. You are still young, my apprentice, and have much to learn in the ways of the force. -UtM

druke

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« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2004, 06:04:10 pm »
.. i\'ll wait for the summaries on cliff notes...


my how times have changed.....

Harwen

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« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2004, 06:20:19 pm »
Wow, a post that makes you think instead of cringe, don\'t see that every day.

Great post anyways, yes, I read the whole thing :D

I see where you\'re coming from, the stereo type has really dug its roots firm and deep in the gaming industry as well as literature, etc. I believe that many people have crazy notions of a good alternative, but they are hard-pressed to what a Middle-Earth/Forgotten Realms-soaked audience would go for. Purists in a sense are a weird bunch, it seems they want the same thing over and over. I don\'t remember when this started to happen, but I thought the whole point of fantasy was to put the reader/player in another world unfamiliar and new, so that they could live another life and escape from reality. I didn\'t think it would turn into a case of supply and demand....:(

This is why when I start writing an RPG storyline that will one day become a game I try to take the setting out of context with itself. I feel like I am in fact stealing from the original creator of the \"elf\" and its stereotypical persona and mannerism...but infact, in my opinion anyways, fantasy can be something like a comic book, an action movie (alibet the horrible plot), or a fairy tale ( games that borrow from these serious games, are the most original in my opinion, fairy tales are just so kooky).

All of these do the exact same thing a good Tolkien does... just in a different way and some more than others....have any of you ever read DUNE? Great book, great example... in my opinion highly original within the midst of the thousands of arm-thick fantasy tomes in my library.  Well, I lost my point again but maybe someone can find it for me :P

Again, great post Krissanasli  :)
 

Krissanasli

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« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2004, 09:06:27 am »
I doubt people are worried about their audience\'s \"purity\", or anything at all, in fact. It\'s simply more convenient to rip off. Few designers ever want to work on their whole game: they may deal with a bit of the coding part and most of the graphics, but for the most part, they\'re content to recycle the same deficient systems. Nevermind the faults of these systems... If it satisfies their sloth and need for familiarity, all problems can be overlooked. Fantasy does slip into games and novels sometimes, usually without the writer\'s clear intention, and whatever fresh ideas get consistently ripped off become a part of the \"fantasy\" genre itself.

It\'s surprising how, through social forces alone, tradition can overcome any desire to think. It\'s also surprising how it persists in the face of overwhelming evidence that \"new\" would equal \"better\". In the corporate world, Molineaux, Spector and the Blizzard crew might design games for the dumb masses simply because it pays, but... It seems social factors are the ones that make it pay. Most people don\'t care about originality, which means they\'re not about to sponsor it by joining a fantastic game or (god forbid) creating one. The solution for this, it seems, is to promote imagination and free thought wherever possible, including one\'s own mind. And by \"free thought\", I don\'t mean those hackneyed ideas about world peace and equality... I mean real free thought, free from engendered beliefs and social influence.

Not ripping off great chunks of Tolkien or the real world can actually be to a designer\'s benefit. As long as no one expects sieges, governments, housing and such to exist in the game world, no one will demand them, because it simply wouldn\'t fit in (and an original game has the bonus of attracting the right kind of people - people who can cope with originality).

Dune has a strange mix of tradition and originality, which is why I never mentioned it. Its universe is no more than a feudal empire drawing its main resource from a savage desert planet - many aspects seem to have been taken straight from our own world. What makes it so original is that, instead of simply binding these aspects together, the author prudently looked at them and decided how they\'d look like in their appropriate setting. Stilsuits, kris knives and such were both imaginative and perfectly logical - white robes and sabers wouldn\'t do for the deserts of Arrakis. By simply studying a random object from the book, its real counterpart and all the differences between them, the pattern of tradition and originality will come to light.

Now...
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A. What can one do about it?

If you need someone else to answer this question for you, I\'m afraid you won\'t be able to do anything.

Zorium

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« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2004, 10:27:10 am »
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A. What can one do about it?


I think the route of the problem is that no one has yet managed to write an original story line for an RPG, they all seem focussed on the plain old LOTR plot; \"evil\" person tries to take over world while the \"good\" people thry to overthrough the \"evil\" person.  Basically unoriginal and boring.

Interesting role-play does not have to stem from large battles between \"good\" and \"evil\".  Small scale conflicts (this does not nessecarly mean battles) can create far more interesting stories and back plots than general aggression against \"evil\" hordes.

Democracy seems to seep into every MMORPG so as to make things \"fair\" but this introduces the thing most people dread politics.  So why make MMORPG\'S dry and boring when fuedalism, fundamentalism and trickly communsim (to name a few) can create interesting states of command, tension and compassion all come as a result of these governments.

Also why limit yourself to preconceived ideas about people living in certain areas.  I mean why do a different race of people have to barely make ends meat in a desert?  Surely a different race would have adapted to an enviroment e.g. Camals do well in the desert so why can\'t more inteligent creatures?

What makes sentient creatures have to be bipedal and/or (in the case of Centaurs) have human features.  Just looking at intelligent animals (ones that have been tested at least) it appears that most are not remotely like Humans i.e. Dolphins, Pigs, Kakas, Chimps (can\'t think of more at the moment), so out of a list of five; two are primates, one is a marine mammal, one is a mammal and finally one parrot.

It seems as Krissanasli said the only reason these things do not, will not, have not or cannot be changed is a lack of imagination and an unwillingness to depart from social norms.

-Zorium
I reserve the right to be wrong.

Krissanasli

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« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2004, 04:01:36 pm »
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\"evil\" person tries to take over world while the \"good\" people thry to overthrough the \"evil\" person

One of the most effective ways to write a realistic novel is to create a few characters with different ideals and goals, plant them into a world and see what happens. This can often lead to an interesting story, especially if interesting characters are taking part in it. A good vs. evil plot tends to be large instead of great - it projects small-scale conflicts onto entire lands. Really complicated wars are rarely a simple matter of good vs. evil (usually, they\'re a matter of evil leaders leading evil armies through the latent evil of civilian bystanders).

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Democracy seems to seep into every MMORPG so as to make things \"fair\"

I don\'t quite understand this. Developers usually choose the game\'s direction on their own; most of the government -in fact, most of the world- is an invisible mound of NPCs, whose affairs are practically inaccessible to the players. I\'ve seen a few cases of people being allowed to vote on things (example: A Tale in The Desert), but even then, the developers could veto all decisions (and I\'m talking about in-game decisions).

Where\'s the democracy?

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What makes sentient creatures have to be bipedal and/or (in the case of Centaurs) have human features

Actually, that has a lot more to do with making their bodies (and etology) suitable for intelligence. If all you have to do when you\'re hungry is bend your neck and chew on the grass, your species isn\'t going to get too intelligent. If, on the other hand, your body has a lot of ways of *usefully* interacting with the environment, intelligence is a welcome trait, so according to Darwin, it should pop up sooner or later. Humans are intelligent because of several advantageous traits: they can eat a lot of things, which avoid being eaten in a lot of ways (and so require a lot of strategies to \"outsmart\"); they can travel over an environment (the forest canopy) that requires some level of strategy... And so on. I could have a good long talk about this, but the idea is, there are a lot of ways to approach sentience.

You could, for instance, have a lot of species that do *not* have a pack mentality... All it takes is to say \"these guys are individuals\". But for people so embedded and entrenched in that mentality, it borders on the impossible.

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[...]these things do not, will not, have not or cannot be changed[...]

That would only be the case if everyone was unimaginative. Things can be changed, and often are, but only to a minimal extent - a good book or gameworld might appear in the middle of the clones.

We could, I suppose, support such creations and encourage others to experience them. I mentioned Darksun, Harwen mentioned Dune... Are there any other settings that strive to be original?

snow_RAveN

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« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2004, 04:19:45 pm »
i dont think there will be a new change in the Setting.

it has always been good - vs - evil for nearly every thing. some fraction/person has to play the bad guy or \"conflict \" to the main charater. like house attridies vs house hog

besides if my main hero is a \" terroist \" i\'ll be showing him in a good light and the evils in the story will be the goverment that he is trying to over throw 1 . no doubt his still \"evil\" because of his actions but you will still be supporting the \"terroist \"
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Originally posted by DepthBlade
I am not as good as you with posting totally random pointless things that neither are relative or make any sense.

Null_Void

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But...
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2004, 05:35:08 am »
Some time back, I had an interest in writing a story (yes, I promise I will get to the point somewhere in this post).  I wanted this story to be completely alien, but only to the reader.  I wanted the characters in the story to act and think that the world (if you can call it that) they existed in was the norm.  No paragraphs explaining how things work here, nothing to tell the reader \"oh, ignore the problems you see with this, because it\'s all different in my creation.\"

But now, you\'ve suggested doing something like this.  It is no longer an original idea.  How can it be true fantasy if you and I and, to be honest, many other people have already come up with it?  How can we expect to have true fantasy when people (at least, some of them), are by their very natures, creative?

Some might argue that *anything* we can think up is a product of society and our life experiences.  If this is the case, then how can anything be imaginative?  If this is true, then everything that we think is in some way shaped by what we observe or have previously observed.  If this is not the case, then what shapes our creations?  Are we actually capable of spontaneous creative ideas?

Thoughts would be appreciated.

Krissanasli

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« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2004, 09:21:28 am »
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But now, you\'ve suggested doing something like this. It is no longer an original idea.

Originality is not an original concept if everyone picks it up. So what? Again, I define imagination as a process that uses more \"techniques\" than \"raw materials\". The higher the ratio, the more imagination there is. The end result doesn\'t have to be original, but often turns out to be.

Actually, a lot of stories don\'t bother to explain things to their reader - the dune series is an example. It may not be as extreme as what you\'re describing, but you\'re often supposed to figure things out on your own. I\'m not even sure if it\'s feasible to reach the extreme. Not explaining things at all leaves you with a vocabulary that rarely, if ever, fits the setting - a gruesome situation to be in, especially in an alien setting.

I didn\'t suggest that people should treat orignal settings as though they were natural, but that they should appreciate, support and strive to create original stuff. Sometimes that can be done by just playing a game in a certain way.

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Some might argue that *anything* we can think up is a product of society and our life experiences.

I\'d say you can\'t prove that, and leave it there, but it just doesn\'t seem right. Imagination inevitably relies on both harvesting existent concepts and adjusting them to produce a different end result. It\'s spiritual chemistry (and I\'m saying that mostly because I\'ve been studying chemistry hard for the last few days). You can use materials and techniques that have nothing to do with society to bring about results that have nothing to do with society - check out math and other abstract sciences. After making several original theories, will any new idea be influenced by the techniques you\'ve been using? Probably, but it doesn\'t mean it won\'t be fiercely different from its peers.

As to whether or not we\'re capable of spontaneous creative ideas, I don\'t see how it matters. If by \"spontaneous\" you mean \"almost instant\", then I doubt it. You simply don\'t have the time to incorporate enough ideas and craft them well enough for the end result to appear new.

Uyaem

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« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2004, 09:40:19 am »
Okay, it\'s kind of hard to reply to that posting after so much has already been said, but let me try anyway.

@Krissanasli

a) I agree that originality makes people who are in general interested in new things curious. You call them the \"right people\". Those might be the \"right people\" for you, but there are many others who will disagree.

b) It\'s not always a rip-off, but also sometimes just coincidence if creatures/settings appear in a game/world which have already been used somewhere else. Noone can know all the things that have already been used. So basically I think you\'re right with characters like dwarves who really seem to be omnipresent, but with others I\'m not so sure. Another word for \"rip-off\" is \"classic\" ... it depends on your personal point of view. :)

c) It is called a \"medieval\" setting, hence the human already starts to build up images in his mind that he/she associates with the term, which are based on his/her knowledge of real world history. That includes sieges, castles, the basic elements of battle. Perhaps getting rid of that term might help.

d) By strictly using only new elements in a game setting you are most certainly running the risk of alienating it too much. It will only be attractive to a bunch of people who are really into that. That can never happen in a commercial project, so as much as I think you are correct when you say more inspiration/creativity is needed, there\'s no use ranting about it, because it will not happen anyway :)

e) there should be a limit on characters per posting for you :P ;)
There\'s a saying that roughly translates to \"What cannot be said with few words is not worth mentioning at all.\" ;) j/k. Actually finally a posting on the forums that was worth reading thoroughly from the beginning to the end.

PS: I hope you\'re more comfortable with people dropping down on you neak Zak by now. ;)
« Last Edit: July 15, 2004, 09:42:05 am by Uyaem »
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Krissanasli

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« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2004, 03:29:39 pm »
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Those might be the \"right people\" for you, but there are many others who will disagree.

So disagree. Why aren\'t they the right people for an RPG? (I\'m not going to ask you why they aren\'t the right people in general, though. That would take a long discussion, which no one on this forum is likely to benefit from.)

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Another word for \"rip-off\" is \"classic\" ... it depends on your personal point of view

And, as you might find in another thread, another word for powergaming is \"role-playing\". I\'m serious about that.

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There\'s a saying that roughly translates to \"What cannot be said with few words is not worth mentioning at all.\"

Doubleplusgoodthink.

Regarding Zak\'s hideout, he might be a little upset that everyone\'s dropping by, but I don\'t mind. Better that hole than the Gazebo... I can\'t really remember when you dropped in, I\'m afraid. Were you the dwarf who wanted to protect my character\'s virtue, the aimless-looking half-devil or the guy who asked \"wtf\" before running off?

You also said removing \"medieval\" from PlaneShift\'s portfolio might change how people look at it. That\'s not really true, as many people default to thinking \"medieval\" when they see stone houses bound with wooden planks, elves running around and mercenaries getting drunk at the tavern. There\'s so much medieval in this game, you can\'t even walk an inch without stepping on it.

Now, I believe you were actually serious about d)... You argue that a populated, original setting would be impossible to achieve. There are several problems with this argument. First, a lot of people can interpret things. Some can\'t - it\'s a tragedy of nature, but we have to live with it. For example, suppose you were asked to role-play a sentient ship in the middle of space... You wouldn\'t. You would instead role-play something between what that sentient ship should be like, and what a human is like, unless you can understand how the sentient ship actually works. Another example of this is crystal hunting: people don\'t even need to know why crystals spawn in the world, they just learn that they get treats for picking up enough of them. The randomness of spawns and the fact that other players might have already picked up those on the crystal-hunter\'s path can lead to operant conditioning, that wonderful psychological trait that keeps people coming back for more (of the same boring drivel). If you allowed people to play a space-invaders minigame while they bored, all of it using the built-in HUD, they might just agree to become turrets for your sentient ship.

This is also related to the inevitable \"fluff\" of a game, novel or whatever... When people are playing or reading, whether they go on doesn\'t depend too much on whether the plot is weird or familiar. They go on for a lot of reasons, though - some of them emotional, other intellectual. They might not care about the strange customs of a far-off planet, but they might feel disturbed when it came on the threshold of annihilation. As long as you focus on people\'s desires, rather than their expectations, you\'re bound to entertain them.

The third problem, which I can\'t see how you could have missed, is the excitement factor. You say that novelty is something not many people enjoy, at least not when it\'s broad enough to cover the entire game. Yet people played tetris, and it wasn\'t remotely similar to any other game... By your accounts, no one would have played it, except those mindless fanatics who are \"into\" novelty. I\'m confident that many people, once they received a taste of the original, will continue to enjoy it, just as people can become skilled role-players once they\'re introduced to the \"art\".

You also assume that alienating a large number of people is necessarily a bad thing. When you\'re trying to address those people who either can embrace originality or have already done so, you don\'t want the people who \"can\" to be influenced by people who \"can\'t\". Armageddon worked by these rules, and look how many people they have. As it turns out, a lot of players were willing to get into RPing... A lot of others might be willing to embrace an original setting. If that setting isn\'t just original, but also encourages originality, you\'re going to get some pretty spectacular results.

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as much as I think you are correct when you say more inspiration/creativity is needed, there\'s no use ranting about it, because it will not happen anyway

Imagine, for a moment, that the same thing was said about education - that people wouldn\'t learn basic maths and litarcy. Not only is this terribly false, it\'s also false that they would have to be forced to do it: according to statistics, a lot more people in America were literate before the first four years of school became mandatory.

One of the reasons you find so few fantastic games is that their designers don\'t think in terms of encouraging fantasy in their players - they just place it in their own creations and hope for the best. Originality is a meme that nobody\'s tried to spread yet, despite the fact that most of the audience practically depends on memetics.

Anyway, you keep talking about \"commercial\" stuff. Since when did they matter? Not since Warcraft 3 was invented... AoS is actually much more popular than that Dune 2 clone with pretty graphics. Not since Rogue and MUD, either... In fact, not even since the legend of Ghilgamesh.