Author Topic: Naturally Gifted Characters  (Read 8791 times)

Darakus

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« Reply #60 on: January 15, 2005, 08:39:40 pm »
I would have to agree with gronomist about those said gifts since they are invisible in her proposal, except for the server\'s database, they could be implemented without you ever knowing anything about it.  

In fact you could even be playing in such a system now and not know about it, nothing changed in the skill structure, nothing changed in the theoritical training, only a factor set in the speed of progress to level.

For example :

Char A : gifted in sword would need only three successful hits to level after training

while

Char B: normal in sword would nee the normal number of successful hits (never bothered to count but there are more than three)

And voil? you would have implemented a gift system without anybody being aware about it.

I\'m not stating this is what Gronomist is thinking about when speaking about such a gift system, but this would be a way of implementing it.

Now tell me, if such a system was implemented, how would you tell it was in place ?  And what type of advantage do you figure it would give you ?

They could even set it so that success rate calculation would give a different result for 2 persons with the same level and you would never be the wiser.

Seytra

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« Reply #61 on: January 16, 2005, 01:03:08 am »
Quote
Originally posted by Silverthorne
Role play. If my character gets a foolish skill as a inherent bonus, Do I take what is given me and push on, yes. I can still do every thing I want with my character, but my character has a knack for something.. Its part of role play to figure out what that is.

No, it\'s not. It\'s part of the game mechanics, at best. Well, OK, it can be considered to be RP, as the role is given to you. However, it\'s not part of the RP to figure out what it is. You can RP to be trying to figure it out, but you can just as easily just try it out without any RP at all.
Quote
Originally posted by Silverthorne
But I forget, leet players want everything their way, without any surprises.

Do you think I\'m going to back down to avoid being called 1337? If yes, then you\'re wrong.
Quote
Originally posted by Silverthorne
If I offend do not flame me, think about what is said.

Yes, I think about it, and I come to the conclusion that it doesn\'t have anything to do with RP. It is a matter of personal preference, and I happen to dislike surprises, so what? Does that tell anything about my RP? No, I don\'t think it does.
Quote
Originally posted by Gronomist
What d00d doesn\'t know about, d00d is scared of.

What I said above is true for you as well: I will not change my statements to avoid being called d00d, 1337 or n00b. I will change my statements if I\'m convinced that I were wrong, but this certainly isn\'t going to do that.

As for your examples: Maybe you like being surprised. Does this make your RP better? I don\'t think so. It just means that you may be more flexible in what you can / like to play. I may be good at playing knights, but crap at playing mages. Maybe I enjoy playing archers, just as I enjoy certain types of music, and hate playing thieves just as I hate certain other kinds of music.
I don\'t plan on becoming the best at whatever my chars are going to do. I couldn\'t, since I know that I\'m not the grinding kind. However, I do care whether I get the choice. I don\'t see why I need to give up this choice when you can just hit \"randomize\"?
I want equal chances, and I don\'t think there\'s anything bad or wrong with that.

I agree that total control is used to optimise characters. However, I don\'t think that this is inherently wrong. In fact, I think it is a good idea. After all, it\'s hard to RP a decent mage if your char can barely cast the most basic of spells, is it? And don\'t tell me that it\'s RP to accept what you get. That\'s not RP, that\'s either indefference or being highly flexible. However, it\'s just like IRL, some people like playing certain kinds of games, but does it make someone a \"better gamer\" if a person plays any game that they get hold of?

Since you asked for me being constructive: how about adding a \"randomise percent\" or \"randomise points\" option? Maybe this option can also be made to automaticly lead to the next page of the char creation so that you don\'t even get to see the results. Or it could be added at each page, but not done before after the upload? This way, you\'d see the stats that you ended up with before upload, as well as the choices of how much to randomise, but the server would do the randomisation and you wouldn\'t know the results.
This way everyone would get the choice I\'m asking for.
Quote
Originally posted by Darakus
Now tell me, if such a system was implemented, how would you tell it was in place ?

Easily: by reading the source code. And even without that, it will show over time. I observe and combine, and others do, too. It would not stay hidden for long.

Darakus

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« Reply #62 on: January 16, 2005, 10:07:02 am »
Quote

Easily: by reading the source code. And even without that, it will show over time. I observe and combine, and others do, too. It would not stay hidden for long.


Of course if you download the source to read it :)

That said I do not believe it would be as easy to spot as you say by in game cross referencing as you would have to know how they implemented the modification.

I still do not understand you on one point and that is where you state that customisation would be diminished to implement such a bonus system, it mainly depends on how the bonus system would be handled, after all if it was well done bonuses would be influenced by your life\'s story which would made it so that if you chose in life story to be \"talented in singing\" your bonus would be in singing, however if you chose no particular area of talent in your life story then the bonus would be random (which is quite logical since you yourself would be undecided on chosing a gifted area)

Now if we still agree to disagree on this point lets close the discussion since it is a bit pointless after all :)
« Last Edit: January 16, 2005, 10:07:24 am by Darakus »

Aravi

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« Reply #63 on: January 16, 2005, 06:21:19 pm »
The fairness of this idea is a key problem, really. Some players will be lucky and get the advantages they want, others will not. If there is an argument why this is fair, I\'d like to hear it (I know it\'s realistic, but that\'s a seperate issue). The only way no make it fair would be to make the effect so negligible it\'s not worth implementing in the first place.

There are also alot of people who decide in advance who they want to be. The in-game world will be random enough as it is for these people, they are also quite capable of changing their mind about who they wish to be without the aid of invisible skill bonuses.

Mythofsouls

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« Reply #64 on: January 17, 2005, 02:11:09 am »
Ok heres what I think. Ok lets say this:

1. Marco, who wants to be the worlds most powerful wizard, so you practice. Then you just feel like smithing for no reason, you just do it for the heck of it, \"WOW, I\'m pretty good!\"

So Marco wants to be a wizard, but he is good at smithing, thats cool, right? What I keep hearing is that it is \"unfair\". So he is good at smithing and average at magic, SO WHAT? QUIT WHINING! IT DOESNT MATTER, JUST PRACTICE MORE WITH MAGIC (its in caps so you will read this part clearly). So what if you practice less with smithing, its only about 10 percent anyway WHO CARES.

2. Bob the powerful fighter wants to wield an axe, wow, he sucks! \"I cant be a fighter if I suck with an axe, the weapon I want to use!\" He practices it anyway, then one day, its goes away. \"Wow! I finally got pretty good with an axe! Heck, I can even beat that high level monster!\"

YAY!!! Bob is not that good with an axe, but if he keeps practicing, the penalty goes away!!! He knows how to use it right now! He can even beat anything with the axe!

Have you ever watched a movie where someone faces their fears? Well this is just like it! LEARN HOW TO USE YOUR MISTAKES TO MAKE YOURSELF BETTER!!!!! (important) That is how *I* would do it, it doesn\'t mean *you* have to do it though. I think my idea is pretty good.

3. John hates Paul because Paul seems to learn herbology faster. John is ticked off and hates this system. His goal in this game was to be the best in herbology and he does all this work and Paul just cuts through it like its paper. One day from working so hard, John just suddenly got so good at it, he seems to get better MUCH faster. Thus, he creates his own bonus.

NOTE: Making your own bonus has a lower limit (only about 10-12 percent maybe and takes a long time and lots of hard work)

Yeah! John rocks! From doing it so much and working so hard, he got better than Paul! Paul may have an 8 percent bonus in herbology, but John just created himself about 10 percent!!! WOW! SO THERE IS HOPE FOR JOHN! Paul can also get better than John if he slacks off! But once you get higher in bonus, it will get harder to get a higher increase!

That is how I would do this, It seems flawless to me, but, thats me. Tell me what you think, thanks! (no flaming please)

Seytra

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« Reply #65 on: January 17, 2005, 02:23:29 am »
Quote
Originally posted by Darakus
Quote

Easily: by reading the source code. And even without that, it will show over time. I observe and combine, and others do, too. It would not stay hidden for long.


Of course if you download the source to read it :)

As far as I have looked at the source, it is well-written. And this includes
- modularisation and
- documentation.
Both of these are essential for any project of this size, especially with such a number of developers, who also change frequently, to actually work. Therefore I actually expect to see something like
Code: [Select]

//Skills.cpp: Source for skill system
/*
1.12.2004: changed skill advancement for Kran

2.12.2004: implemented hidden bonus system

(...)
*/

(...)

/*
This function randomises the hidden skill bonus

INOUT: char - the character object of class Char_Object_C, created by the char creation

IN: skills - the skill table of struct Skill_Table, generated by the char creation
*/

signed char RandomiseBonus(Char_Object_C char, Skill_Table skills)
{
(...)
}


Apart from that, there will be plenty of entries in the CVS history, etc., etc.. Not hard to find, as it should be.

Quote
Originally posted by Darakus
That said I do not believe it would be as easy to spot as you say by in game cross referencing as you would have to know how they implemented the modification.

That might be. If it actually makes a difference, which it needs to to be worth adding, then it\'ll
- be noticable in either low or high levels, which also are the exact levels at which players look very closely at their advancements and effectivity.
Even if it doesn\'t show in skills or levelling, it will show in combat / task efficiency, and this will be noticed as constant, i.e. not statistical skew. Even passively observing other chars of the same level in certain skills will show it, considering the number of players.
Quote
Originally posted by Darakus
I still do not understand you on one point and that is where you state that customisation would be diminished to implement such a bonus system, it mainly depends on how the bonus system would be handled, after all if it was well done bonuses would be influenced by your life\'s story which would made it so that if you chose in life story to be \"talented in singing\" your bonus would be in singing, however if you chose no particular area of talent in your life story then the bonus would be random (which is quite logical since you yourself would be undecided on chosing a gifted area)

However, this wouldn\'t be \"naturally gifted\" anymore, since your past would decide it. Also, it would be like the current char creation, and I\'d be perfectly fine with that, since it effectively does give the player control.
Quote
Originally posted by Darakus
Now if we still agree to disagree on this point lets close the discussion since it is a bit pointless after all :)

Indeed, like different tastes of music. :)

@ Aravi: exactly.

Edit:

@ Mythofsouls: Examples 1 and 2 IMO clearly display the unfairness of the system: one player needs to put more work into achieving the same goal as another player, for no other reason than randomness.
Furthermore, these things don\'t just \"go away\". If you train exceptionally hard, then you can even become very good at something. However, if you\'re gifted in it, you\'ll either not need to train that hard or you get to the same proficiency way faster.

See, this is what I see as RP: I can start low on something but still practice it and RP to be having difficulty at it, which reflected the choices I made. However, it was my decision to do that, and not the servers. If I simply want to become the best at something, like a legendary fighter, then I obviously wouldn\'t choose to start low on fighting skills, except if I wish to RP someone who masters it despite not being talented in it.

As for the self-created bonuses: what\'ll happen if both train equally hard? Wouldn\'t Paul get a bonus of 10 as well, thus increasing his bonus to 18, preserving the inequality?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2005, 02:36:05 am by Seytra »

Mythofsouls

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« Reply #66 on: January 17, 2005, 02:58:49 am »
Ok if thats a problem then how about this: if you get a natural bonus, then its harder to get your bonus up, if you have no bonus, get your own, but you can get it faster (but not necessarily easier) There also should be a limit, like around 10-15% and natural abilities should start around 1-10% or less.

ALSO, if you have a negative bonus, dont worry! You can easily get rid of it if you are patient. So stop complaining if its unfair to have negative bonuses. This means you have something to work on! Also, everybody should have an equal amount of negative bonuses.

Also, in my opinion, if you need to work harder on something. Too bad. If you are too lazy to work, you dont get it. If you get a better bonus, great. This is just like real life people!!!! WORK FOR YOUR GOAL! PLEASE STOP SAYING IT IS UNFAIR BECAUSE LIFE IS NOT AND I WILL REPEAT IS NOT FAIR. This is a game! If the *randomness* makes the game unfair and you are not wanting to work for it, then go play halo 2 or half life 2 and play easy mode and pawn them like crazy. If you have such a bonus (10%) in a skill and you learn faster WHO CARES!!! You do less work! If you have a negative bonus in a skill, THEN GUESS WHAT? You are the same as everybody else! If the skill is not of your favor, FINE, dont make it a big deal, its not what you want, who cares!
« Last Edit: January 17, 2005, 03:06:44 am by Mythofsouls »

Seytra

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« Reply #67 on: January 17, 2005, 03:45:06 am »
Quote
Originally posted by Mythofsouls
Also, in my opinion, if you need to work harder on something. Too bad. If you are too lazy to work, you dont get it. If you get a better bonus, great. This is just like real life people!!!! WORK FOR YOUR GOAL! PLEASE STOP SAYING IT IS UNFAIR BECAUSE LIFE IS NOT AND I WILL REPEAT IS NOT FAIR. This is a game! If the *randomness* makes the game unfair and you are not wanting to work for it, then go play halo 2 or half life 2 and play easy mode and pawn them like crazy. If you have such a bonus (10%) in a skill and you learn faster WHO CARES!!! You do less work! If you have a negative bonus in a skill, THEN GUESS WHAT? You are the same as everybody else! If the skill is not of your favor, FINE, dont make it a big deal, its not what you want, who cares!

Will you stop it already? Come off the \"WHO CARES?!?!?\" line! If you absolutely must have an answer to this rhetorical question: I care.
As for your argument \"too bad, it\'s (just like) life\", then this is exactly why I don\'t want it! I have already said this in some of my earlier posts on this subject / thread, that life isn\'t the perfect way of doing things. (OK, actually I said that realism needs to stop where it seriously detracts from an enjoyable gaming experience, which IMNSHO, is the same message, however). Life has more than just some aspects which plainly suck. However, games are meant for fun, not as pointless waste of (just as pointless) energy as is life. So this means that care schould be taken to not place things into games that suck. Life is unfair, but unfairness sucks, so it\'s got no place in games. As you yourself pointed out: PS isn\'t life, it\'s a game!
I will not cease to point out that this system would be unfair, as this is one of the central arguments.

Furthermore, nobody said they don\'t want to work for it. The only thing they said is that they want the amount of work which is required to be equal for everyone.
Read what we say, and stop trolling!

Furthermore, it\'s just sad that you continously state that you don\'t care whether others have an enjoyable gaming experience, as if this were an acceptable attitude. :tdown:
« Last Edit: January 17, 2005, 03:58:34 am by Seytra »

Mythofsouls

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« Reply #68 on: January 17, 2005, 04:07:50 am »
Sorry I was just angry, now can we please go back to the suggestion I made?

Silverthorne

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« Reply #69 on: January 17, 2005, 08:41:26 am »
Moderator please lock this forum.  It is turning from an interesting idea into flame wars.

Aravi

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« Reply #70 on: January 17, 2005, 10:09:27 am »
Quote
This is a game! If the *randomness* makes the game unfair and you are not wanting to work for it, then go play halo 2 or half life 2 and play easy mode and pawn them like crazy.


Myth of Souls, how is it that unfairness and difficulty become the same thing? You seem to view them as one and the same.

Difficulty can be quite fair, if all must face the same challenge.
Lack of difficulty can be quite unfair, if only some get the easy way.

Unlike reality a game doesn\'t need to be unfair. In fact, unfair = imbalanced.

Draklar

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« Reply #71 on: January 17, 2005, 10:31:46 am »
Bah, you people are impossible.
Someone already said that in rp game people should be able to decide about characters they want to roleplay.

And it should end at that.
It\'s stupid idea, handicaping roleplaying possibilities. \'Nuff said.

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AKA Skald

wertigon

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« Reply #72 on: January 17, 2005, 04:10:47 pm »
Well, I\'ve already expressed my support for this idea, since I don\'t see it to be \"unfair\". Or rather, it\'s an unfairness that doesn\'t stick, since you can still be a great swordsman, and in the end maybe even a *better* one than one with a natural talent for it. Natural talents tend to have a habit of becoming lazy you know... ;)

Then again, I\'m pretty much an \"Okay, my character is kinda like this\" type of RP:er, and I often if not always let the dice give me a couple of advantages/disadvantages, and shape my character in a way my mind might not have intended or thought of in the first place. I don\'t want perfect control of my character; I know I\'ll never have it anyhow. I want an interesting character to play, and in my experience what makes a character interesting is by and large it\'s disadvantages.

Numbers are just numbers. Stats are just stats. No offence, but it\'s so goddamn *boring* to play a Paladin that hacks through everything he meets, but if that Paladin have a disadvantage of some sort, then it\'s all of a sudden a much more interesting character. Maybe it\'s a loud and obnoxious character. Maybe he lost his right arm while fighting a dragon. Maybe he\'s having doubts about his faith. Maybe he did something terrible in his past that still haunts him to this day. And I prefer to let the dice decide these kind of things for me, since I\'m an improvisator. Heck, my best character so far has been an alcoholized doctor that failed to save his wife. :)

That is why I, as a GM, always let all the characters in my group get one or two disadvantages, randomly chosen; it really increases the role-playing. The only question is, would you let it stay a disadvantage, or would you turn it to an advantage? And this idea would mean that yes, at some points you\'d be at a disadvantage, but it\'d by no means be a permanent one, and with practice you might even be better off in the end. It\'d enrichen your character by giving you some stuff you might never have thought of to give it otherwise. In my experience, not giving a person *total* control about their character has increased the role playing for everyone involved.

Not that I\'m hoping to convince anyone; just want you to know where I\'m coming from. That\'s all. Wertigon out!
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Verrliit

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« Reply #73 on: August 03, 2005, 09:24:16 pm »
A few observations:

1. This idea adds something to your character that may later be discovered.  You will explore yourself and your abilities, not just the world and people around you.

2.  The joy of finding that you have a Talent or Talents, should it be something you like, will be intense.  If you are good at something you would not have chosen, you can explore new ground, go an unexpected direction, to potentially even greater reward.

3. That a player, at random, might recieve a talent, or combination of them, that is unbalanced, player to player, is a good thing.  It creates personality, difference, variety.  There will no longer be hundreds of cookie-cutter characters that began identically.  And the goal of each player will no longer default to becoming the strongest warrior.

4.  It should take several days to discover whether a character has a particular Talent.  If necessary, add a delay, before a talent could manifest.  Those who would grind character creation to select a Talent in particular, are not really a problem of any kind.  They will never know if they discarded a monstrous Talent that was not the one they sought.

5.  Only the most myopic control freak, whose only goal is to overpower others, would fail to enjoy the added subtleties to the roleplay environment that this very simple and powerful change will create.


Finally:

If you can\'t see how brilliantly this adds to the game, then play somewhere else.  You lack the imagination to provide me with any fun.


The Dark Lady
Verrliit


ps:  It is my hope, with the first CB Wipe underway, that this was already included in the updated character progression the Devs have promised.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2005, 09:30:31 pm by Verrliit »
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Seytra

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« Reply #74 on: August 03, 2005, 10:19:52 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Verrliit
5.  Only the most myopic control freak, whose only goal is to overpower others, would fail to enjoy the added subtleties to the roleplay environment that this very simple and powerful change will create.


Finally:

If you can\'t see how brilliantly this adds to the game, then play somewhere else.  You lack the imagination to provide me with any fun.

I am still as opposed to this idea as I was when it was posted originally. Also, I see it as not mandatory to provide you with any fun, and it will most definitely not make me play another game. :tdown:
If you don\'t enjoy RPing with me because I don\'t think random maluses are fun, then don\'t. I have been RPing with a lot of people and we had a lot of fun without the server dictating what our chars are.

I may be a control freak, but my imagination is sufficient to not require the server to decide for me what I am to play. If that is what you call \"imagination\", then I am quite happy to lack it. :rolleyes:
« Last Edit: August 03, 2005, 10:23:41 pm by Seytra »