Some notes from a random stranger.

[Nivm]

 I played this game quite some time ago, back when I didn't understand what "role-play" meant the same way a 4-year-old doesn't understand object permanency. I returned, because on this night, the physical systems of world Yliakum came to mind, and then a single paragraph, which has not changed on my return;

Waste
Ducts that have been dug out in the rock are used to dispose of human waste. Larger rubbish and bodies are simply thrown into almost vertical and apparently endless wells. Nobody seems to care about where all of this junk finally ends up, since the stalactite theory is only devised by some Xacha scientists and has not been proven yet. Dead bodies are eliminated the same way. Though discarding dead in such a callous fashion would seem rather shocking, neither of the two main faiths at Yliakum requires particular care nor reverence to dead bodies. To the people here, a body is simply a non-functional apparatus or an empty shell with no soul. However, nothing is ever thrown into the lake. The law forbids this disposal method not only out of courtesy to the Nolthrirs, but also to protect the seaweed population. Polluting the lake is one of the few crimes punished with death.

 And then this part;

For the future we will focus our efforts on the reproduction of a real world with politics, economy, improving the artificial intelligence of non-player-characters controlled by the server that will bring our world to life!

 I immediately had a little "rage" over this, to the point of making an account after all this time. As explanation, seeing the second part brings to mind the attitude that follows "realism before gameplay, for great realism produces gameplay", of which I personally subscribe. This feeling compounds the flaw in the first quote; you can't keep getting rid of life minerals and precious nitrates in a closed system without completely depleting the soil to the point of dust. I'd expect that such a large flaw requiring only a small, text edit would be taken care of by now, but since it hasn't, I assume there must be a reason. Where does the pocket world of Yliakum get its nutrients, minerals, and nitrates to replace the one it has lost? (And how where such ducts dug without finding out what was at the bottom? Charges?)

 After reading the rules, I find they scare me; they demonstrate that this is a very slow forum, meaning one can't expect ten varied replies in the next hour, and they allow for moderators to beyond what is required.

 The only other note is from a memory; I recall that in this game there are numerous invisible walls preventing one from exploring far off the beaten path, and load points were placed unevenly. Since Yliakum is such a small world, it should be quite possible to model and detail the entire thing continuously (then working terrain to allow for hidden shortcuts and dangers for straying). It should also be possible to divide the world into smaller sections, then load the nearby sections as your character nears the boundaries.

Edit: Since it has been a while since I used a forum without avatars, I find it suddenly very hard to recognize different posters.

[LigH]

Welcome.

A lot of different questions in one post.

a) Waste is not yet a topic which reached the level of importance to talk about realism of its implementation (there are "more importent topics" for several years still). Only few things remain really so useless that they must be removed "by the gods" (e.g. by Game Masters) - for almost everything an NPC merchant is available who you can sell off your waste to. Dead bodies are not an issue at all, as long as Dakkru rather reliably resurrects them. "True death" - if it ever happens - would only happen due to a character/account deletion. And even then, there are still the Stone Labyrinths with a connnection to the outside world behind the Bronze Doors, so Yliakum is not exactly "hermetically sealed".

b) This forum is well able to collect dozens of flame and hate and trolling replies in a brief time. Sieving out the serious ones can be more of a challenge. And board moderators are always responsible for executing the administrator[']s['] rules. My dictionary refers to it as "exercising property rights".

c) Unfortunately we are not yet rid of all invisible walls. But theoretically, background loading of the world should work (practically it is bugged up to disabling it partially - I have seen that it is in general possible to move without loading breaks between several maps, but then some parts might be missing, making you fall through holes). The underlying CrystalSpace 3D engine is as much in development as the game itself, and the game is always again adapting to engine changes.

d) "For some strange reason", avatars are reserved for development staff; but you may still use signatures (with a moderate size, please) to identify your posts.

[BoevenF]

I'm not english native, so perhaps I don't understand some subtelties of the language.

I assume your doubt about closed systems comes from the "apparently endless wells", and as far as I know since the soil actually remains rich in life minerals and it's not depleted yet, an Yliakum scientist can propose some theories:

* the apparently endless wells are not endless after all.

* the stalactite is actually not a closed system, but part of a greater system, and there are some mechanisms that replace the substances. Water is flowing from the walls of the stalactite from external sources, and we don't know yet the composition of water. I remember I've seen a map of yliakum that supports this theory.

I find the lack of knowledge in this matter a pity, but also a good RP starting point, and stimulates the scientist in me. Too much fighters in Yliakum  

Boeven frowns a little, picks up a booklet from his bag, scribbles a note: "Knowledge Seekers". then put it back.

finally, I'm sure there are technical reasons to prevent the exploration of the entire level, and I leave the explanation to others, this argument was maybe previously discussed in other threads. I'll check searching the forums.

If that was not your point, then I'm sorry I didn't understand, and welcome back.

Edit:
LigH's reply was faster than mine thank you for the answers.

@Ligh: You think my sig is too big? actually is bigger than yours and I've searched thru the forums for infos. Ok, I'll shrink a little then : )

[Nivm]

 Thank you. I tend to weave too many concepts together, but that's mostly because they're already woven.

 Sadly, since it's been so long since I've played (I'll have to switch to the other unavailable computer to boot up PlaneShift), I can't presume to keep up a conversation on game mechanics. That part was just notes. However, I do know world building, and although there are numerous hints that the site information is fractional, I thought I could help.
 When I speak of these things, I think of them in terms of "how many kg of organic matter leave Yliakum a day? How many enter?", and wish for such things to balance out, or if they don't, implement consequences. Although I don't have census information, I would expect that people would manage to drain farmland of all nutrients within five or six years, creating the "Dustbowl" effect seen in America's 1930s. Things living and dieing on a section of land are all-important for its health; if living things are leaving (all the vanished adventurers), and the dead being carted away, the land will suffer. If rivers bring silt, then those rivers need to flood or form first-level lakes to deposit much of that silt. One would expect the climate away from the main lake to be barren instead of verdant, and the seaweed supplies unable to support the population. It would be nice to get a record down of the all the common imports and exports.

 I still need to go see what walls have been removed, it sounds like it's much better than it used to be. Perhaps I will now be able to charge into the field to the right when leaving Hydlaa north gate.

 Are people supposed to role-play on the forums as well as the game? I've seen that "emote" text many times now.

 Well, I blocked all the avatars and signatures, since they aren't even, and those random objects in place of avatars. So I have no further trouble.

 No, I didn't sleep last night. I'll see what this post looks like when I read it while awake.

[Roled]

Thanks Nivm for the beginning of this interesting and rich set of questions!

Since I am not a techie I can't speak to the technical issues being raised...but one random thought prompted by what you each has mentioned struck me like a bolt of {Whatever lightening is made of}...

Maybe sometime at some point someone will 'discover' that the assumptions about this imperatively closed system with mysteriously holes {that go to ...where?} and the ultimate reality of the world of Ylikum were simply...
wrong?... incomplete? In some generation, an elf or enki or kran or klyros or xacha or hammer or someone will conceptualize, like Copernicus, like Galileo, like Einstein, that Ylikum is not the center of the universe,

that the universe extends... who knows where? To Vodul and beyond?

And those in Yliakum who come to believe in this new science will be persecuted, imprisoned, executed... but the expanding universe of expanding truth will not be silenced...

After all, how can there be a crystal eclipse until something moves in between the crystal and the viewer?

What the !@#$ do we know?

Roled Rolak
Proctor
Knowledge Seekers 

[Candy]

...{Whatever lightening is made of}...

Electricity. Also, according to Wikipedia, "It is believed to be caused by Zeus, a Greek god, in anger for Greece going bankrupt." xD

_{And since I have nothing on-topic to say, I'll go lurk more.}

[LigH]

@ Boeven:

I did not refer to your signature specifically?! - Yours was fine for me... there have been larger ones, and much more eye-catching and annoying ones than yours. No, my point d) was just a generic statement.

[Hrothbert]

As to the closed system there is actually a book in the Library in-game that explains how the system is helped by the indigenous species that live here-in, Also there is one of these 'endless' holes implemented in-game and being that it is a player accessible area it is my belief that there may be a species that lives in it similar to our goats that will eat almost anything and dispose of it. Any way Just thought that I would mention some of the answers to your question are answered in the great Hydlaa Library

[Dracaeon]

Endless hole implemented?  Where?

[Rigwyn]

Nvim,

I like your figurative description of the current state of the community and I thoroughly agree. Players come in, play, die and slide out through the waste channels into an abyss. Nobody cares. They are viewed as nonfunctional apparatuses.  The influx of new players is sometimes like silt or in other words, the game attracts people who are not interested in rp.  There is a prevalent attitude that players will leave and new ones will just replace them and everything will be fine. Unfortunately you are quite correct in stating that doing this tends to drain the goodness  out of the community. The end result is a non-fertile community in which rp either does not exist, or just dies as quickly as it starts.

At least thats my interpretation.

As I said in another post, the "playground" needs to be fixed before you can start rebuilding the community. Perhaps a very lax system with no rules for rp worked long ago, Its my opinion  that some rules and consequences are needed in order to maintain the integrity of the community.  Rules need to be made in order to discourage "silt" from leaking into the player base and to ensure that experienced players will still be able to enjoy the game.

Its used to be that the tutorial (unintentionally)  acted as a filter. If you were not smart enough to get though the tutorial world, then you would not make it in. To get though the tutorial, one needs to be able to read, comprehend what is said, and follow simple instructions. Those who are not capable of this much should not be able to get into the rp server. Someone went ahead and made a tutorial walkthough so that even the dumbest of the dumb could make it in. Further there is a guild that exists in the tutorial world to help players in. I'm sure it was intended to help people get past simple mistakes that escaped them, but the consequence was that the filtering effect was broken. As a result there are a lot of folks with zero patience and no common sense. I guess they tend to get frustrated and leave eventually.

When good players start leaving, someone should scratch their head and say "Hmm, I wonder if there is a problem that needs to be addressed" instead of  just letting them exit without notice. Once LOTS of good players start leaving all at once its too late. There is a ripple effect. Eventually players will leave because of the loss of players.

I'm glad to see that you care about rebuilding the community Nvim. For the sake of the game I hope that those who govern the game care just as much and make whatever changes are needed to make this near-dust bowl habital again. Perhaps then, the community will be reborn.

[BoevenF]

I'm also a newbie here, and this is my first experience from many points of view, but I noticed this, please correct me if I'm wrong:

The most part of recent complains and lamentations about overall situation came from frustrated players who can't play in a way they used to be with former version of client. Minimum requirements are higher than before, the player can't cope with that and saddened leave.
then there are problems with updater, that leave another big bunch of angry players, who don't have enough experience in managing their pcs and Macs and applying necessary workarounds.
the fact is: Planeshift is a tech playable demo, so playable and enjoyable that most part of players actually forgot what that means.

as for RP, when I first arrived here I was a muted klyros who assisted at mysterious events: people stabbed in Kada-el's tavern, dueling nearly the plaza (O_O), it was... wow!
so I stayed here, fascinated by players and game mechanic.

I fear that a lot of good RPlayers gone, were not techie people.

[Rigwyn]

then there are problems with updater, that leave another big bunch of angry players, who don't have enough experience in managing their pcs and Macs and applying necessary workarounds.
the fact is: Planeshift is a tech playable demo, so playable and enjoyable that most part of players actually forgot what that means.

True, some very good players were not techies. Losing them results in further erosion of the already weak rp community, and other players leaving too  a a result. Some of this could be chalked up as inexperience with computers, some if cannot. Some of it is due to hardware and driver issues. 

Understand that it takes time for people to get good at role playing.  Also, if there is nobody around to mentor those who do not yet know how to role play, it will take that much longer for them to learn.  If the people who run guilds on the rp server don't know how to role play (or think they do but are horribly mistaken) then those who join their guilds will be delayed until they meet up with someone who role plays well.

[Hrothbert]

@Dracaeon 'endless' hole the quotations make it so as it is not true to the absolute definition, The howling well as mentioned in other posts is a burial well and player accessible.

[Nivm]

 So people just try to role-play on the forums? Or does Roled want to teach me how it's viewed in-game so I don't mis-remember my lines?

 It looks like I'll need to go in-game and find those books, all of them, before continuing...much. Could I get a mild spoiler about how much time/difficulty it will take to find all these books? Beyond finding the records/library/bookstore that is.
 Might seem disgusting, but what do you mean by the creatures "dispos[ing] of it"? The matter has to go somewhere, and in some form. If biological, the preferred form is fertilizer for farming, and that stuff was collected for the purpose far back in European history all the way to...today. Yliakums would not have to deal with: biodegradless plastic; excessive, chemically treated paper, or an abundance of harmful chemicals and minerals (do you know that many computers contain lead?). They would not dump metals, for they can be re-forged when broken, and are hard to refine. They would not dump stone, for what to use for building? But I guess they would definitely dump corrupted, chaotic, or wild magic; that stuff'll kill you, and it's pain to clean up.

 Truthfully, Rigwyn, that metaphor didn't come to my mind until you posted it. I know a decent amount about internet communities in general, but very little about this one, for I doubt what I've read is all-inclusive (but the rules...augh). I don't really want to get into it, but here's a few examples of forum rules; Short, Short n' Sweet, Long, Verbose. It's not necessarily strict, but instead unbalanced, seemingly leaving overlapping areas of encouragement and forbearance.
 The Brick Wall Learning Curve^{IM (Internet Mark)}!  =D  So, instead of making a tutorial that doesn't really teach you the game; make the game itself ridiculously complicated. Since you guys enjoy thoughtful realism (or Sense, since magic isn't real), it becomes really easy as the game is developed to add numerous useful controls that a practiced player loves and a newbie is confused by. Every time I've seen this happen (a control/detail flood), the trolls never reach the forums; they look at the manual and their hot little minds don't have the patience to do it, however epic it may be. So, nearly all players entering the community are of the patient kind, and this often implies nice, even if it can't guarantee it. You know, it seems like all the nice communities have some kind of filter, and that filter determines the community. Do you want a barbed fence, ring of fire, brick wall, force field, or something else entirely?

 "Caring"...that's the first step, isn't it?

It will be the Phoenix; reborn from the ashes.

(Oh, and 5 hours of sleep 20 hours ago this time.)

[Rigwyn]

Truthfully, Rigwyn, that metaphor didn't come to my mind until you posted it.

What then were you talking about when talking about the waste system etc .. ? I can't imagine that you were literally talking about the waste system and the way the dead are disposed of?

The Brick Wall Learning CurveIM (Internet Mark)!  =D  So, instead of making a tutorial that doesn't really teach you the game; make the game itself ridiculously complicated.

No, not exactly. The tutorial should be designed to set a player up for success. I think that there is enough information in the tutorial as is. What I'm saying is if a person does not have the facilities to get though this simple tutorial then they should not be let in - the game will be too difficult for them and most likely unpleasant for both them and those who encounter them.

I used to think that anyone could be taught with enough nurture. I would have told you a year ago that it would be best to lower the bar so that everyone could be included. I see now the flaw in that sort of thinking. When you lower the bar too much you also lower the standard and people will play worse as they conform to that lower standard instead of aspiring to improve. Its better to work with the 20 percent who get thought the tutorial on their own than the 80 percent who fail. Yes, that 80% might contain a few gems, but those gems will most likely try again or ask someone for a hint.

( for those who cannot read between the lines, the numbers 80 and 20 are used figuratively. they are not real numbers. they also hint at the well known 80/20 rule )

Do you want a barbed fence, ring of fire, brick wall, force field, or something else entirely?

Ideally a filter that only lets though those with:

   * Some common sense
   * The ability to listen, comprehend, and follow simple instructions
   * The ability and desire to role play

"Caring"...that's the first step, isn't it?

Its better to spend your time caring about those who are in the 20% group which managed to get thought the tutorial than on every single potential player. Again, of the 80% who fail to get through there will be a few good players who fell through the cracks. Its unfortunate, but its still better to focus on the minority population that succededs. Those who are good candidates and fail will probably try again.


This might sound harsh but its very natural. Nature constantly filters the weak and in-adaptable from the strong and adaptable.