Author Topic: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread  (Read 18892 times)

Volki

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #690 on: October 04, 2013, 01:31:34 am »
Congratulations! You just showed us plenty of evidence for why the breeding of dogs is considered evolution. I didn't have to say a thing this time. Thanks.
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Illysia

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #691 on: October 04, 2013, 01:32:37 am »
BTW interesting link Rigwyn. I especially like how the evolution is dead section ties in with points I was making in the above post. Not to mention, it proves that in science there are always at least two opposing sides to pretty much every issue. But I'll pass on the transhumanism thank you. ::|

Actually read Volki. Your skimming is why your links aren't very helpful to your point. At least try since you make such a fuss over needing someone to argue with.
... I went through the trouble of finally replying to you. I have been writing and typing all day. My wrists are sore. If you can't come up with anything, I will assume that upon seeing my amazing post, you brushed up on all of the relevant subjects and, once you realized you were wrong on every count, decided to pretend none of this ever happened...

Irony is sweet when it throws the other person's words back in their face.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 01:36:10 am by Illysia »

Volki

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #692 on: October 04, 2013, 01:38:20 am »
I read all of your text. I'm too hungry to read your links. I have to eat.

What you're doing is like looking up at the sky, denying it is blue, explaining why it is blue, and then concluding, "It's not blue."

And Rigwyn's link does not tie in with your points at all. Don't pull him into this.
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Illysia

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #693 on: October 04, 2013, 01:48:22 am »
From Rigwyn's link"

Quote
Natural selection, as outlined in On the Origin of Species, occurs when a genetic mutation—say, resulting in a spine suited to upright walking—is passed down through generations, because it affords some benefit. Eventually the mutation becomes the norm.

The definition of evolution like I said

Quote
The human population will become more alike as races merge, he said, but "Darwin's machine has lost its power."

That's because natural selection—Darwin's "survival of the fittest" concept—is being sidelined in humans, according to Jones.

The fittest will no longer spearhead evolutionary change, because, thanks to medical advances, the weakest also live on and pass down their genes.
Skewing the environment, especially to preserve the weaker individuals, messes with the process. Like I said.

Quote
Nick Bostrom, director of the Future of Humanity Institute at the University of Oxford, said Darwinian evolution "is happening on a very slow time scale now relative to other things that are leading to changes in the human condition"—cloning, genetic enhancement, robotics, artificial intelligence, and nanotechnology, for starters.
Scientists say Darwinian evolution is slow... like I said. You have to directly tinker with the genetic code to speed it up like I said. But even with arguing on artificial selection... dogs don't cut the mustard here.



But if you want to prove your point, provide evidence that dog breeding is providing viable new evolutionary pathways.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 02:05:53 am by Illysia »

Volki

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #694 on: October 04, 2013, 02:24:40 am »
You misunderstood practically everything in that article.

And I don't need to provide any evidence because you've provided it for me. You seem to think that evolution is inherently for the benefit of a species. You seem to believe that it is directed, but it is not. It is manipulated by the environment. It is considered adaptation, yes, but it is not orchestrated. It just happens because certain traits were "chosen" by the environment. In the case of dogs, humans manipulated evolution.

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Scientific+theory+of+evolution

In the strange definition of evolution you hold, we haven't evolved since we became Homo sapiens. I do not understand how you can continue to deny a definition that is so widely accepted. Evolution ranges from domain to phenotype. How else do you think evolutionary changes occur?

I'm probably evolutionarily different from you. We probably have different hair, different skin tones, different skeletons, different... everything. Dogs are an example of how these differences came to be. When we look at each other, we see the result. But when we look at dogs, we see the transformation.
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Illysia

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #695 on: October 04, 2013, 04:48:20 am »
Ok, see here is the problem. You seem to be using the "it changed" definition of evolution and that is not going to work on a complex biological system. It's too simple. That definition works for your phone not an organism, but I'll get to that in a minute.

If there is no specific benefit aspect for the species then why would the trait be preferentially selected to the point of it becoming a hallmark of a species? If there is no concerted reason, like benefit, for the genetic herding then it should bounce around aimlessly not forming neat groups that we can use to tell creatures apart from each other. The only reason to preferentially choose big ears to the point of becoming common is because the one that hears farther gets off the scene faster leaving the little ears to get eaten. Otherwise, some might have big ears and another a long nose, one less foot, an extra eye. see what I'm getting here? Randomly chosen traits make no sense and even if they all got the same random trait it still doesn't explain the presence of enough preferential selection to allow the trait to take root and become fixed. Maybe a few get by with an extra foot, but that foot better be helping them or the ones that are better suited to the environment should have an advantage.

Adaptability is a main point of evolution. Now yes you could look at it as just changing because something around you changed. But if it is not changed to be better suited to the environment, beneficial change, what's the point? Why did it change if it was already sitting pretty or why was a maladaptive trait not weeded out? If it is a neutral change, what is the mechanism for making it spread through the species since there's nothing special about it? If it's just randomly mutating then there is high chance that there will be a bad or useless mutation and natural selection is supposedly going to root it out since it's supposed to prefer what is advantageous. But you can artificially select you say! Well, as I was saying with the dogs artificially selecting a species creates, at least in dogs, those lovely genetic bottlenecks which specifically reduce adaptability and could potentially lead to being genetic inviable. How are you going to get speciation, the forming of new species, like that? Speciation is a big deal since you know evolution is supposed to be there to explain how that happens. However, I will give you a break on plants since plants do seem to be a lot more receptive to such artificial measures than animals.

By the way, those definitions on that website are aren't going to cut it.
Quote
1. A continuing process of change from one state or condition to another or from one form to another.
2. The theory that groups of organisms change with passage of time, mainly as a result of natural selection, so that descendants differ morphologically and physiologically from their ancestors.

The first one is how it is used in common speech, like in describing the evolution of computers. It's a loose definition that could be used to describe an ice cube as easily as an animal, and more importantly, it is not the biological definition. The second is overly simplified and lacking key elements. Your children will differ from you in morphological ways. Your son will differ from you physiologically as a male. That doesn't mean his state is an evolved state of your own. In the case of you and your son, your son is still human and he is only expressing the traits that were included in the human genome not a true change in species or even down that path. And if he in turn has a daughter who also differs from him physiologically and in morphological ways that is not evidence that evolution went backwards.

Further, describing hair color difference as evolutionary makes no sense. I have brown hair and you may have red, but I could have a gene for red hair too. Even if I don't it's still in the human genome even if it isn't expressed in me as an individual. That's not an evolutionary difference between us. Especially since the smallest group evolution is supposed to happen on is the population level, not the individual level. You are still human and so am I with much variance in appearance but not true difference, and there is all the evidence in the world to support this. Especially as race has been proven to have no biological based. The reason I bring up race is because culturally we typically define race by groups of phenotypic traits like skin, hair, slight changes in shape of body parts, ect. Biologically we are all human meaning presenting phenotype as a true difference doesn't make sense as genetically we are just human.

But lets get back to the dog thing. Yes, Humans manipulated the changes in dogs, but they are still the same species. Now species is a funky definition to make. Sometimes it feels almost as bad as trying to define life but here's a definition and notice it already has some more details than your free dictionary definitions.

Quote
According to the biological species concept, a species is defined as a group of organisms that are able to breed with one another to produce viable offspring that, in turn, can also produce viable offspring by interbreeding. Species can also be defined by how many traits organisms share, how many genes they share, or by common ancestry.
Came from here

Now to artificial selection. Yes, people have played with the phenotype and they have even encouraged some genetic loss, but so far that path is leading down the build up of unhelpful genes not the potential path to a new species that will eventually be able to only breed within its own population. To give an example, lets think in terms of humans, say you have a human breeding program where you select preferentially for blonde hair, blue eyes and pale skin and while you are executing this breeding program you increase the risk of these people having hemophillia. Now bear with me and ignore some of the blatant ethical issues because I want you to think in terms of humans so this stays familiar to you.

Now as you go on, you get a group of people who have blonde hair, blue eyes, pale skin, and some have hemophilia. Did you make a change yes, but remember change alone can't be used as a definition of evolution. The ice cube changed from solid to liquid, it did not evolve from solid to liquid. These people are all still human. Now, this is your breeding stock. So you keep on your breeding program and to keep from getting variance you can only introduce people into the program that have the necessary requirements of blonde, blue eyes, pale. This limits your breeding pool but creates isolation, and that is supposedly one of the necessary tools for speciation but let's look at this.

Now you have an artificially isolated population; your breeding pool is limited. You have certain traits that you are breeding for, the hair eyes skin bit, but those aren't the only traits that are getting reproduced through the population. You've also got hemophillia and now you've also managed a cancer gene due to mutation. Now if you had a wider pool and you weren't artificially selecting, you might be able weed out the cancer and/or the hemophillia in time, but you don't have a wider pool, so you actually end up concentrating it. Or maybe you'd think, well just don't let the people who have those traits have kids, well that's still a problem. The more people you take out of the breeding pool, the smaller the gene pools becomes and the more likely you are to concentrate new genetic issues.

Well, you still continue your program but those genetic disorders are cutting into the participants who are in position to breed on their own but since you are artificially selecting, you are working to make sure that as many of them as possible can still breed. Those genes are getting passed on and you are deliberately inhibiting natural selection from intervening so you continue to concentrate less than helpful genes.

Now, I shouldn't have to continue the example for it to be clear that while you are affecting a change by limiting which traits get passed on, you are not creating new species nor are you going to anytime soon. They are human just like the rest, can interbred with the rest, and if they go on the future to mix in the general population that unique set of traits will blend into the whole and will no longer be expressed in their children to the exclusion of all other traits. All the efforts at change will be lost. Further, due to the small pool you are starting to accumulate other problematic genes which in high enough concentrations will actually start to either prevent the people from being able to live without severe intervention or will eventually render them unable to produce new generations. That's not sustainable.

Now to step back a moment, the issue here isn't actually people or dogs. But it's the process that is being explained as producing evolution in dogs. And I get it, if you google it a lot of places say dogs are examples of evolution. I saw that. But the issue is that this process is contradicting the definitions used to distinguish evolution from an ice cube melting simply because someone insists on using words loosely. Evolution is not just a change, a species is not just something that looks different. This is why we have definitions to try and keep from having concepts crash into each other like defining the changes in dogs as evolution when it doesn't properly fit into the rest of the framework. This process looks more like a controlled dead end than evolutionary anything. Which makes me worry more for dogs the longer we debate this. :-\

Volki

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #696 on: October 04, 2013, 05:59:53 am »
I only read a few paragraphs and skimmed the rest. I don't mean to be offensive, but you are repeating the same statements over and over and not really trying to understand the information I am providing you, or so it seems.

There is no point of evolution. There is literally ZERO effort going into it. It's just one of those things that happens.

A species adapts. Not the individual.

Further, describing hair color difference as evolutionary makes no sense. I have brown hair and you may have red, but I could have a gene for red hair too. Even if I don't it's still in the human genome even if it isn't expressed in me as an individual. That's not an evolutionary difference between us. Especially since the smallest group evolution is supposed to happen on is the population level, not the individual level.

Now, hold on. What? You just said that our differences are not evolutionary, then go on to say they... are? If we were sisters, what you just said would make sense. If everyone you were related to also had black hair, and everyone I was related to had red hair, I'd say that is a pretty good indication of an evolutionary difference.

What is your obsession with species? If you understand that it is hard to define species, then why are you using it as the one most important factor in determining the true definition of evolution? Here is the definition of evolution from my textbook:

evolution - Descent with modification; the idea that living species are descendants of ancestral species that were different from the present-day ones; also defined more narrowly as the change in the genetic composition of a population from generation to generation.

Genetic composition means genotype.

genotype - The genetic makeup, or set of alleles, of an organism.

allele - Any of the alternative versions of a gene that may produce distinguishable phenotypic effects.

People attempted to manipulate the phenotypes of dogs... They ended up manipulating the genotypes. Does that make sense to you?

This process looks more like a controlled dead end than evolutionary anything. Which makes me worry more for dogs the longer we debate this. :-\

wat
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MishkaL1138

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #697 on: October 04, 2013, 06:26:56 am »
This is starting to become a thread where only Illysia and Sarras bicker about stuff that will catch off-guard everyone who hasn't been following it for a while.

Let's try something different: What do you do when you are bored?

I'll start: I make models, mostly WWII planes.

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Illysia

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #698 on: October 04, 2013, 09:00:00 am »
This is starting to become a thread where only Illysia and Sarras bicker about stuff that will catch off-guard everyone who hasn't been following it for a while.

Feel free to move on but I'm pretty sure this thread is often just me and someone else talking about stuff most people aren't really paying attention to or interested in.

I only read a few paragraphs and skimmed the rest. I don't mean to be offensive, but you are repeating the same statements over and over and not really trying to understand the information I am providing you, or so it seems.

How would you know that if you aren't really reading? Further, how do you defend a point based on a specific line of reasoning, if you using constantly changing lines of reasoning just to keep the other party entertained? It may or not be the same statements but that's because you failed to answer the issue at hand. Making a statement then moving on does not guarantee you gave a satisfactory or defendable answer.

Now like I said, skim again and we'll be right back in an endless loop, if you confuse evolution and change you can't distinguish between species change and an ice cube melting. That is a relevant point. Poor definition will leave the origin of species in the same definition as changing fashion. Pick any definition of evolution that you want but understand some are inadequate and useless for making your point. So choose your definition carefully. And there is no grand scale purpose to evolution, but there are several theories on the point of it. Passing on genes to keep a species thriving as a possible point so that line of thought is not useful for making your point.

Now, make up your mind. Part of why this is going in circles is because your explanations are contradicting. How am I supposed to "understand the information you are providing" when it is all over the place? How did the species adapt but not the individuals? The species are made up of individuals. If you have one or two with useful traits, that does the species no good... A genetic adaptation has to spread to enough members of the currently living population to hang around otherwise it can be there or not be there like a mole on your cheek. Species don't get traits by magic.

And why use species if it is hard to define? Because explaining why there are species is the whole reason there is a theory of evolution. If you have a problem with that take it up with Darwin. Many things in life are hard to define. Being hard to define does not make it irrelevant. It is far harder to define life but look how many branches of science we devote to it. Science is a learning process not a knowing everything process.

As for our differences, human have common ancestors so making a distinction between whether we are sisters is arbitrary. Humans are related enough. Now, looking at that that textbook definition, I'll accept that as a definition, and I'll go further and stick out it is inadequate or a major oversimplification of what they mean. By that definition, you are evolutionarily different from your parents, but that can't be as there isn't enough genetic difference to make divergence. 10,000 years from now your descendants will still be humans just the same as you meaning you couldn't have possibly had enough change in your genetic code. You have to make a break between evolution as the mechanism for making species and just slight changes that won't lead anywhere.

If you defined evolution as just the change between generations, even defining it as genetic change, then we are technically evolving each generation. But no, we have not evolved anytime recently. We are still humans and so are our children. But, the progress of human evolution topic is hotly debated. That's all the point this http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/11/091124-origin-of-species-150-darwin-human-evolution.html was making. There are 4 separate theories right there and one of them is definitely "not evolving."

Yes, people manipulated the genotype of dogs some and still got dogs. They will stay dogs, they are not going to lead to anything past making more dogs. There is not enough change in the genes to do anything but at best slowly kill dogs off by narrowing their genetic pool too much. Which is why I say the process of making specific breeds starts to worry me now. But there are ways to keep from dooming a breed to being inbred.

MishkaL1138

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #699 on: October 04, 2013, 11:28:11 am »
Yes, people manipulated the genotype of dogs some and still got dogs. They will stay dogs, they are not going to lead to anything past making more dogs.

They were wolves first. They're still wolves. Inbred, sure, but wolves nonetheless (still Canis lupus). Which makes me wonder how ironic is it that we use dogs to hunt wolves and protect us and our sheep from them.

"It's all fun and games until someone stabs someone else in the eye."

lilura

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #700 on: October 04, 2013, 11:50:16 am »
Let's try something different: What do you do when you are bored?

I'll start: I make models, mostly WWII planes.

When I'm bored I: read, watch youtube such as MyMusic, MDK, dailygrace. Also, tumblr and other social media.

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LigH

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #701 on: October 04, 2013, 11:52:48 am »
When I'm really bored, I decide to read even this thread ... ;D

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Rigwyn

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #702 on: October 04, 2013, 01:02:45 pm »
I would like to congratulate illysia and volki for having the first
Intelligent discussion on the planeshift forums.

This friends, is a milestone.

I would love to read the rest of this and reply, but sadly I am
Just getting over a migraine that started yesterday. I can't think
Right now ...

Regardless of who's right or wrong, this is good stuff. Keep it up :)

Illysia

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #703 on: October 04, 2013, 03:11:55 pm »
I would like to congratulate illysia and volki for having the first
Intelligent discussion on the planeshift forums.

This friends, is a milestone.

 ;D There might be another serious discussion around here... somewhere. But this probably is one of the longest running arguments that didn't either start with debates over RP or end in debates over RP.

When I'm really bored, I decide to read even this thread ... ;D

When I'm bored I come read this forum. Sadly it eventually took over. I haven't played my games properly since this argument started. :/

tman

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #704 on: October 04, 2013, 03:36:07 pm »
I love how there are pages and pages of text arguing about the difference between evolution and natural selection.

For the record, dog breeding is evolution.  The definition of evolution is a change in a population over time.  Dog breeding is NOT natural selection.  In fact it is artificial selection.

Natural selection is what causes evolution in nature.  But "natural selection" and "evolution" are NOT the same thing.
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