Author Topic: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread  (Read 18888 times)

Illysia

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #705 on: October 04, 2013, 04:11:43 pm »
Even making a distinction between natural selection and evolution, just using a change over time is like I was saying earlier. It's an over simplified definition for biological systems. We aren't talking about the latest iPhone, we talking about the Theory of Evolution.

Yes in a general sense it means change but its like the distinction between how the words weight and mass are used in physics and in general conversation. The refinement of definition is needed when you are talking scientifically because how it is used and thought of in general conversation is too loosely defined, poorly defined, or wrongly defined to be of use as a foundation for inquiry.

Evolution as a change in population over time is better definition than some, but technically aging is a change in a population over time. Do you see how over simplified definitions causes trouble in showing what is and is not an example?

Volki

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #706 on: October 04, 2013, 05:58:50 pm »
Illysia. Just stop. I could argue against every single one of your points, but it hasn't worked before, so I'm not going to try again. You cannot win this argument. You may not realize it, but I do know more than you when it comes to this topic. That is the only reason I have continued to discuss it. I am trying to enlighten you. Unfortunately, as I have no "certificate" for my knowledge, and since I do not yet have the level of knowledge a graduate student would have, you refuse to believe me. Now, if Lilura could stop being lazy and teach an online class for you, that would be appreciated.

None of the links you have provided have helped your cause. And I am surprised that you have not yet realized that much of what you've tried to explain contradicts your repeated conclusion. No one else who has posted yet agrees with you. My professors would not agree with you. My textbook, if it gained sentience, would certainly not agree with you.

This may come as a surprise, but I do have a lot of patience. I often find myself teaching friends and acquaintances what I have learned over my lifetime. And I do enjoy learning and being taught in school and by my friends. I rarely ever run into someone who will argue with me. That is mostly because I never discuss topics I know nothing about, and I have a reputation for knowing too much. If I ever feel like information I have learned is faulty, then I immediately search for the correct information. If I feel like I may have misunderstood information, I will try harder to understand it. And if I found myself in your situation, where no one agreed with my understanding of a subject on a public forum, I would stop. I would probably then spend an entire month learning as much as possible about that subject.

The fact that you continue to argue against so much opposition worries me. I would say you are stubborn, but not in a good way, I'm afraid. There is a point at which stubbornness becomes a negative trait.
Lace dark dreadfull power inside him awakens now fully resultin his former self comin back lord of dark noble house shantae of mevango family lacertus shadowone mevango also knowed as darkblade of shadows

Illysia

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #707 on: October 04, 2013, 06:18:25 pm »
Feel what you want Volki. I'm not trying to change what you believe so much as point to the reasons I can't follow you down that conclusion. You could be a graduate student, the issue is not the paper you hold. Passively accepting something just because everyone else is willing to accept it is not inherently beneficial, that's called being a lemming. It's not that I'm not paying attention, I'm telling you all you are doing is throwing peanuts and expecting me to be happy just because you chose to accept it.

My main issue with this is that you have to have to leave loose defintions to shoehorn this concept in. I've already said several times why the definitions given are too open to be of use. The ice cube, the phone, your son... all those examples fit the definitions you gave. It's not my fault you didn't realize how loose those definitions were. And just blowing off that you can define it better doesn't make you right.

I'll accept the artificial selection, I accept that dog breeds represent a certain amount of genetic change. But, if biological evolution is a distinct thing that can be defined, then give it a unique definition that applies to it not everything synonymous with the word change. Most of the definitions given could apply to things we know for sure no one claims as evolution because the definitions are too loose. Now I know you have to start someplace and succinct definitions are nice, especially for quick conversations, but all continuing to provide loose definitions does is convince me that you don't have a better fitting definition and can't fit this dog breeding into the structure of evolution as a whole. You have to leave it loose, to shoehorn it in, because if you give a more specific definition it becomes clear it does not fit.

This is not about you or me, it's about foundations. If you are just defining evolution as change in a population, you leave it open for non examples. So quit dancing around initially issue and give it a clear, unique definition; it doesn't even have to be short, but it better be consistent.

bilbous

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #708 on: October 04, 2013, 06:26:34 pm »
* bilbous thinks this discussion is completely bonkers.
Every Kran knows Talad created everything and things only change according to his will.

Illysia

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #709 on: October 04, 2013, 06:28:32 pm »
Except the Lemurs. :whistling:

bilbous

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #710 on: October 04, 2013, 06:30:15 pm »
You can't prove that!

Also, Talad created Laanx. time has no meaning for gods.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 06:32:39 pm by bilbous »

Illysia

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #711 on: October 04, 2013, 06:38:55 pm »
 ;D I think he might have to worry about Laanx trying to uncreate him.

Volki

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #712 on: October 04, 2013, 06:41:24 pm »
Passively accepting something just because everyone else is willing to accept it is not inherently beneficial, that's called being a lemming. It's not that I'm not paying attention, I'm telling you all you are doing is throwing peanuts and expecting me to be happy just because you chose to accept it.

It is not passive acceptance. It is active acceptance. You can only accept a scientific theory by understanding it.

This is how scientific study works. If you cannot appreciate how it works, then you are irrelevant. We do not need someone who argues about a definition. We already understand how evolution works. You are barring yourself from the first step of scientific study, which is making an attempt to understand theories. You do not have to accept the theories, but you must accept the definitions. You may contest a theory, but you may not contest the definitions. If everyone shared your way of thinking, communication would be rendered useless. There would be no such thing as science.

And now I realize your mistake. You have thrust yourself into a debate over something you have not yet grasped even the basic principles of.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution

READ EVERY WORD.
Lace dark dreadfull power inside him awakens now fully resultin his former self comin back lord of dark noble house shantae of mevango family lacertus shadowone mevango also knowed as darkblade of shadows

Rirenil Masdo

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #713 on: October 04, 2013, 07:29:44 pm »
READ EVERY WORD.




(a side note, I'm not "taking sides".  I'm just here to have fun and write this damned story.  which, btw, is "almost" complete now!)
"Jekkar really is Planeshift's very own Van Gogh - an iconoclastic rulebreaker, unheralded by his peers, who must await for history to recognise his talents at a later date." - Rinenud
"Jekkar is an old one-eared smelly elitist party-pooper jerkface."  - Neko K

Rigwyn

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #714 on: October 04, 2013, 07:57:40 pm »
From Rigwyn's link"

Quote
Natural selection, as outlined in On the Origin of Species, occurs when a genetic mutation—say, resulting in a spine suited to upright walking—is passed down through generations, because it affords some benefit. Eventually the mutation becomes the norm.

The definition of evolution like I said

Quote
The human population will become more alike as races merge, he said, but "Darwin's machine has lost its power."

That's because natural selection—Darwin's "survival of the fittest" concept—is being sidelined in humans, according to Jones.

The fittest will no longer spearhead evolutionary change, because, thanks to medical advances, the weakest also live on and pass down their genes.
Skewing the environment, especially to preserve the weaker individuals, messes with the process. Like I said.

Quote
Nick Bostrom, director of the Future of Humanity Institute at the University of Oxford, said Darwinian evolution "is happening on a very slow time scale now relative to other things that are leading to changes in the human condition"—cloning, genetic enhancement, robotics, artificial intelligence, and nanotechnology, for starters.
Scientists say Darwinian evolution is slow... like I said. You have to directly tinker with the genetic code to speed it up like I said. But even with arguing on artificial selection... dogs don't cut the mustard here.



But if you want to prove your point, provide evidence that dog breeding is providing viable new evolutionary pathways.

I don't have time to reread all this right now, but I think you cherry picked the article that I linked. The article also suggested that the demand for greater intelligence and greater resistance to disease could cause further evolution. While you might argue that advances in medicine, welfare and programs that cater to the less fortunate prevent evolution from occurring, this too could change rather rapidly. All it really takes is a few world leaders to adopt a "survival of the fittest" sort of policy.

As for whether or not the cultivating of a specific phenotype whether via natural or artificial means and subsequent sepciation (sp) counts as evolution or not, I would think yes. Enlighten me if I am wrong.

What is required for a change to be considered evolution? Is mutation specifically required?  Is that the only requirement?

* Rigwyn grumbles ... "All these goddamn pink ponies and unicorns... what is this world coming to!"

bilbous

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #715 on: October 04, 2013, 08:08:10 pm »
It is the end times. E.T. is coming home to clean up the cages of its pets, and we ain't them

Rirenil Masdo

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #716 on: October 04, 2013, 08:12:21 pm »
* Rigwyn grumbles ... "All these goddamn pink ponies and unicorns... what is this world coming to!"



also, heres my only contribution to your discussion.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkuCtIko798
"Jekkar really is Planeshift's very own Van Gogh - an iconoclastic rulebreaker, unheralded by his peers, who must await for history to recognise his talents at a later date." - Rinenud
"Jekkar is an old one-eared smelly elitist party-pooper jerkface."  - Neko K

bloodedIrishman

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #717 on: October 04, 2013, 08:14:59 pm »
No more ponies. NO MORE

Rirenil Masdo

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #718 on: October 04, 2013, 08:15:36 pm »
the krans posting as we type, so probably. yeah  :(

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« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 08:17:39 pm by Rirenil Masdo »
"Jekkar really is Planeshift's very own Van Gogh - an iconoclastic rulebreaker, unheralded by his peers, who must await for history to recognise his talents at a later date." - Rinenud
"Jekkar is an old one-eared smelly elitist party-pooper jerkface."  - Neko K

lilura

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #719 on: October 04, 2013, 08:23:06 pm »

What is required for a change to be considered evolution? Is mutation specifically required?  Is that the only requirement?

* Rigwyn grumbles ... "All these goddamn pink ponies and unicorns... what is this world coming to!"


3 requirements of evolution via selection: variation, heritability and the differential survival and reproduction of variants

I'm trying to stay out of this discussion though it is fun for me to read when bored ...add it to my list of things that I do when Im bored

i like ponies

Monala arches a brow. "Wait, so eatin' is like..." she shakes her head. "Er, nevermind."
[1: gossip] Monala: Lilu's piesexual.